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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2009 08:29 pm
@parados,
I do not trust Goddard to put honest information out there as long as James Hansen is involved.

I don't know enough abut HADCRUT to say.
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 02:45 am
All right, fox, let's try this once again. Do try to remember it this time. there is a difference in CO2, depending on whhere it came from (more particularly, there is a difference in the carbon--the C). What is important, and indicates it's anthropogenic, is the changing C12/C13/C14 ratios Yes, . Plants have differential uptake of c12 and c13. Plants prefer C12 to C13. Any organism takes up C14 from the atmosphere and will contain a certain percentage of it when that organism dies. C14 is radioactive. Over roughly 45000 years it decays. Very old organic material has no C14 because it's all decayed. The use of fossil fuel causes an increase in CO2 in the atmosphere. The C14 ratioin the atmosphere decreased as a result of fossil fuel burning (the "Seuss effect" (NOT named for Dr. Seuss)), whic h wa s observed before atmoshpheric nuclear testing obscured the results. The C12/C13 ratio has changed as well, indicative of more coming from plant material. To simplify a bit, the changes in atmospheric CO2 ratios (i.e. the different isotopes of C in the CO2) indicate that the increase in CO2 is coming from very very old plant material, that is, the stuff that makes fossil fuels. Yes, we're causing it.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 03:05 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I do not trust Goddard to put honest information out there as long as James Hansen is involved.

I don't know enough abut HADCRUT to say.


Obviously, you don't select your information ...

Oh, btw: HadCRUT is a combination of land air temperature anomalies and sea surface temperature anomalies. I'm sure that someone is involved in those data whom you don't trust.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 09:18 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I do not trust Goddard to put honest information out there as long as James Hansen is involved.

I don't know enough abut HADCRUT to say.

Oh, so you don't trust any information that gives results you don't agree with. Glad you cleared that up. Can you tell us specifics about why you don't trust it? Perhaps point out what specifically you find wrong with the data.

You do realize that ican has been posting GISS and Hadcrut figures to support what he is saying. If you don't trust those numbers why would you trust ican's conclusions based on those numbers?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 09:37 am
@parados,
i didn't say that. I said I don't trust any information in which James Hansen is involved. He sold out his scientific soul and cannot be dependable to put science ahead of politics.

So pick sources that DO put science ahead of politics and we might find a framework on which we can agree is at least valid stuff.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 10:13 am
@Foxfyre,
So, you have no evidence that Hanson's work is incorrect. You just don't like his politics so that must mean he puts politics ahead of science.

What science do you have that shows Hanson's science is wrong? It seems you have none. You just put your politics ahead of science and use that as your basis to claim he is doing that.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 10:36 am
@parados,
Among the many who have accused James Hansen--at least I know enough about him to spell his name right--is his former boss:

Quote:
James Hansen's former boss, on James Hansen
Posted: January 28, 2009, 4:32 PM by Lawrence Solomon
Lawrence Solomon, Climate change, global warming, James Hansen, NASA, Hansen

James Hansen of NASA's GISS has been the single-most influential scientist in the world in promoting the view that global warming represents a catastrophic risk to the planet. His former supervisor at NASA, Dr. John S. Theon, now publicly disagrees with Hansen's work. In the correspondence below from earlier this month, Theon dismisses the validity of Hansen's work, charges that some scientists manipulated climate change data, and formally joined the ranks of the deniers. He expressed his views to the Minority Office at the U.S. Environment and Public Works Committee.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/01/28/james-hansen-s-former-boss-on-james-hansen.aspx


The testimony that Theon provided the Senate is quite damning.

Further Hansen has been a front runner in attempts to silence any who would dispute....Hansen.....

In this highly non-objective piece, you will nevertheless find Hansen's own words:

Quote:
A saint of the left, a hero of the environmentalists, a self-proclaimed martyr to truth and champion of democratic processes, Hansen has an interesting idea of what to do with those -- or at least some of those -- who disagree with him. Conduct an inquisition. Strike back at the heretics.

But let's let him speak for himself.

"Special interests have blocked the transition to our renewable energy future," he wrote in an online piece for World Watch Institute. "Instead of moving heavily into renewable energies, fossil fuel companies choose to spread doubt about global warming, just as tobacco companies discredited the link between smoking and cancer.. .

"CEOs of fossil energy companies know what they are doing and are aware of the long-term consequences of continued business as usual. In my opinion, these CEOs should be tried for high crimes against humanity and nature."

In other words, if you exercise your democratic rights to petition your government and speak freely but are also contradicting someone in possession of absolute knowledge -- in this instance, the great, infallible Hansen -- you are to be dragged before the proper authorities and prosecuted, not for some misdemeanor, mind you, but for crimes way, way up there -- high crimes -- and crimes not just against some group of people or the other, but against all of humanity, and for that matter, against nature itself. One shudders to think of what penalties a guilty verdict might lead to.
http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/34233


Now who do you have who isn't a political or partisan hack or who isn't in it for the money to speak for Hansen?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 11:31 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Among the many who have accused James Hansen--at least I know enough about him to spell his name right--is his former boss: ...


Theon wrote to the Minority Office at the Environment and Public Works Committee on January 15, 2009. "I was, in effect, Hansen's supervisor because I had to justify his funding, allocate his resources, and evaluate his results. I did not have the authority to give him his annual performance evaluation..."

A "supervisor, in effect" [whatever that means but not what generally is understood as 'supervisor']. Not his boss.
Source

You should use reliable sources, Foxfyre, originals and not conservative falsifications.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 11:43 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I have worked for organizations in which others, other than my 'boss' did my performance evaluation. "Boss" is not an offiial title but, among other things, a designation of supervisor, and in most American companies, the terms 'boss' and 'supervisor' are frequently interchangeable.

Quote:
boss
Definition
An individual that is usually the immediate supervisor of some number of employees and has certain capacities and responsibilities to make decisions. The term itself is not a formal title, and is sometimes used to refer to any higher level employee in a company, including a supervisor, manager, director, or the CEO.
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/boss.html


So what source w0uld you consider more reliable since you have in effect stated that my source is not?

(I am thrilled that you seem to consider Inhofe's Press Blog to be a reliable source though, even though it did not refute the NRO piece in any way.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 11:56 am
@Foxfyre,
Have a nice day/weekend.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 12:21 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Meaning you can't? Another hit and run Walter attack/criticism that he can't back up?

You have a nice weekend too.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 12:35 pm
On the radio late last night I heard the tail end of an interview with Lord Monckton who had been invited to testify on global warming before a Senate committee yesterday, but after he landed in the USA, was told that Henry Waxman had refused to allow him to testify along with Al Gore (the Democrats' star witness) because it might 'embarrass' Gore.

I've been watching for something in the news today regarding that, but the MSM is silent as usual. A link to the following showed up on the Drudge Report a few minutes ago. The quotes attributed to Lord Monckton are from an obviously angry and insulted witness--probably not too objective at the time, but certainly from the heart:

Quote:
Report: Democrats Refuse to Allow Skeptic to Testify Alongside Gore At Congressional Hearing
Thursday, April 23, 2009By Marc Morano
'House Democrats don't want Gore humiliated'
Climate Depot Exclusive - Updated

Washington, DC -- UK's Lord Christopher Monckton, a former science advisor to Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, claimed House Democrats have refused to allow him to appear alongside former Vice President Al Gore at a high profile global warming hearing on Friday April 24, 2009 at 10am in Washington. Monckton told Climate Depot that the Democrats rescinded his scheduled joint appearance at the House Energy and Commerce hearing on Friday. Monckton said he was informed that he would not be allowed to testify alongside Gore when his plane landed from England Thursday afternoon.

“The House Democrats don't want Gore humiliated, so they slammed the door of the Capitol in my face,” Monckton told Climate Depot in an exclusive interview. “They are cowards.”

According to Monckton, Rep. Joe Barton (R-Texas), Ranking Member on the Energy & Commerce Committee, had invited him to go head to head with Gore and testify at the hearing on Capitol Hill Friday. But Monckton now says that when his airplane from London landed in the U.S. on Thursday, he was informed that the former Vice-President had “chickened out” and there would be no joint appearance. Gore is scheduled to testify on Friday to the Subcommittee on Energy and the Environment's fourth day of hearings on the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009. The hearing will be held in 2123 Rayburn House Office Building.

According to Monckton, House Democrats told the Republican committee staff earlier this week that they would be putting forward an unnamed 'celebrity' as their star witness Friday at a multi-panel climate hearing examining the House global warming bill. The "celebrity" witness turned out to be Gore. Monckton said the GOP replied they would respond to the Democrats' "celebrity" with an unnamed "celebrity" of their own. But Monckton claims that when the Democrats were told who the GOP witness would be, they refused to allow him to testify alongside Gore.

[ Update: 1:55 PM EST: A GOP House source told Climate Depot that the Democrats on the Committee said “absolutely not” to allowing Monckton to appear during today's Gore hearing. The GOP committee “pushed at multiple levels” to bring Monckton in to testify but the Democrats “refused,” according to the GOP source. Former GOP House Speaker Newt Gingrich was called in to testify after Monckton was rejected by the committee Democrats, according to the Congressional source.]

“The Democrats have a lot to learn about the right of free speech under the US Constitution. Congress Henry Waxman's (D-CA) refusal to expose Al Gore's sci-fi comedy-horror testimony to proper, independent scrutiny by the House minority reeks of naked fear,” Monckton said from the airport Thursday evening.

“Waxman knows there has been no 'global warming' for at least a decade. Waxman knows there has been seven and a half years' global cooling. Waxman knows that, in the words of the UK High Court judge who condemned Gore's mawkish movie as materially, seriously, serially inaccurate, 'the Armageddon scenario that he depicts is not based on any scientific view,'” Monckton explained. Monckton has previously testified before the House Committee in March. (See: Monckton: Have the courage to do nothing...US Congress told climate change is not real ) Monckton has also publicly challenged Gore to a debate. (See: Al Gore Challenged to International TV Debate on Global Warming By Lord Monckton - March 19, 2007 )

A call to the Democratic office of the House Energy and Commerce Committee seeking comment was not immediately returned Thursday night.
http://www.climatedepot.com/a/429/Report-Democrats-Refuse-to-Allow-Skeptic-to-Testify-Alongside-Gore-At-Congressional-Hearing
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 02:08 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Meaning you can't? Another hit and run Walter attack/criticism that he can't back up?


I don't care what you think I mean. But it isn't what you wrote (and with a little thinking, even you would get that).
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 02:13 pm
@Foxfyre,
You will call it nit-picking again - but according to all sources, Viscount Monckton of Brenchley wasn't Thatcher's science but one of her political advisers. (She wouldn't have been so stupid to name someone with a degree in classics and journalism as her science adviser - she had some better choices.)
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 03:02 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
You feel so strongly about it you think your position is less than 10% likely to happen? What a BS artist you are.

You fail again, again ... and again to comprehend what I actually feel strongly about.

ican711nm wrote:
The problem for me at this time, is that I don't have enough data to justify betting whether SI will increase or decrease over that time period [i.e., 2001-2011]. I'm confident that if SI increases over that time period, then A-AAGT and AAGT will increase over that time period. On the other hand, if SI continues to decrease over that time period, I'm confident A-AAGT and AAGT will continue to decrease over that time period.


This is what I feel strongly about:
ican711nm wrote:
It is a fact that during the specific 90 year period,
1908 to 1998, CAD increased, SI increased, A-AAGT
increased, and AAGT increased. It is also a fact that
during the specific 11 year period, 1998 to 2008,
CAD increased, SI decreased, A-AAGT decreased, and
AAGT decreased. Because of these facts, SI increases
and decreases are likely to be the major causes of
A-AAGT and AAGT increases and decreases,
and CAD increases are likely to be minor, if not
negligible, causes of increases of A-AAGT and AAGT.

CAGT = CENTURY AVERAGE GLOBALTEMPERATURE,1901-2000, in °K = 287.06°K
AAGT= ANNUAL AVERAGE GLOBALTEMPERATURE in °K
A-AAGT = ANOMALIES of AAGT = AAGT - CAGT in °K
AAGT = CAGT + A-AAGT
CAD = CO2 ATMOSPHERIC DENSITY in PPM
SI = SOLAR IRRADIANCE in W/M^2

I am willing to bet that IF SI increases over the next 3 years, THEN A-AAGT and AAGT will increase.

I am willing to bet that IF SI decreases over the next 3 years, THEN A-AAGT and AAGT will decrease.

parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 03:05 pm
@Foxfyre,
Since Theon left NASA in 1994. I am unclear how you think he is Hansen's boss?

Theon certainly hasn't had to look at or justify any of Hansen's work since 1994. So to call him Hansen's "boss" seems a stretch. Of course, that ignores the fact that by 2020, Hansen will probably be retired since he will be 79 years old.

http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com/2009/01/john-s-theon-new-elderly-denier-on.html
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 03:07 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
I am willing to bet that IF SI increases over the next 3 years, THEN A-AAGT and AAGT will increase.

I am willing to bet that IF SI decreases over the next 3 years, THEN A-AAGT and AAGT will decrease.

That isn't much of a bet ican since we know that SI will increase because it is the start of an upward trend in the cycle. We also know that the globe is warming so barring a major volcanic eruption the likelihood of it warming over the next 3 years is probably about 99.0% or more.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 03:16 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Since Theon left NASA in 1994. I am unclear how you think he is Hansen's boss?

Theon certainly hasn't had to look at or justify any of Hansen's work since 1994. So to call him Hansen's "boss" seems a stretch. Of course, that ignores the fact that by 2020, Hansen will probably be retired since he will be 79 years old.

http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com/2009/01/john-s-theon-new-elderly-denier-on.html


When I write 'former boss', I really don't think I am saying that anybody is the present boss. When you use the word 'former' what do you mean by that?

What do you have to show that Theon was not Hansen's former boss? And what do you have to show that Theon is not a fully qualified climate scientist quite capable of evaluating what Hansen has written, said, published, testified then, before, since, and now?

Who credible to you have to speak on Hansen's behalf now?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 03:27 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

You will call it nit-picking again - but according to all sources, Viscount Monckton of Brenchley wasn't Thatcher's science but one of her political advisers. (She wouldn't have been so stupid to name someone with a degree in classics and journalism as her science adviser - she had some better choices.)


So specifically what did Monckton advise Ms. Thatcher about? Are you certain that there were no science issues involved whether or not they were political?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 04:10 pm
An interesting exchange between John Dingell, Democrat, and Al Gore today:

0 Replies
 
 

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