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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Apr, 2009 06:31 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
1) Our society shifted from a mostly common sense one to a litigious one where you have predatory lawyers just looking for anything or anybody to sue and successful class action suits can net a law firm millions.


Might be true, but applies to all automakers competing in the American market. If foreign automakers were to cut costs by making shittier cars that were less safe, they'd just as soon get hit with a class action suit as an American company.


Foxfyre wrote:
2) We encouraged and allowed unions unprecedented power that almost closed down the railroads and several other previously thriving industries and that have made it more and more difficult for our auto manufacturers to be competitive.


Concerning public transportation, you also allowed companies like GM to eliminate competition by buying up and closing down public transportation networks throughout the United States. I'm not sure how you would blame the demise of public transportation in the United States on unions, though....


Foxfyre wrote:
3) The government began meddling more and more with regulation and mandates that made it even more difficult to compete with burgeoning foreign markets.


Here's a comparison of fuel emission standards in several countries:

http://imgur.com/1P1OA.gif

It might be just me, but to me, it doesn't seem like the overly harsh emission standards in the United States were the primary reason for the demise of American automakers. In fact, you could probably argue that those foreign governments were meddling to an exponentially higher degree in their respective markets.


Foxfyre wrote:
Our auto makers cut so many corners trying to be competitive that they earned a reputation of making inferior cars coupled with making cars nobody wanted.


I propose the alternative theory that American automakers lobbied the government into keeping standards lower than in any other country so they wouldn't have to come up with more efficient and innovative cars and could rather keep on selling what over the course of the years became inferior cars that nobody wanted.


Foxfyre wrote:
The foreign auto makers seized a large chunk of the pie. The American automakers corrected that are now making superb automobiles again but have had a tough time regaining their reputation.


I'm not sure I've seen "superb automobiles" coming out of Detroit in the last couple of years. The new models that are supposed to hit the market in two or three years look interesting, but it remains to be seen whether they can really compete with what's on the market by that time. To me, it seems that most of the innovation regarding American automobiles is coming from little startup companies rather than from the Detroit behemoths.


Foxfyre wrote:
Amerians had become conditioned to think foreign cars are better.


I think that's a lame excuse. Companies like Tesla Motors are continuously sold out and have long waiting lists even in the current economic climate - and they are an American car company.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Apr, 2009 06:51 pm
@old europe,
Your opinion is noted OE. I will remind you that the USA is not Japan or China or Korea or any European country and we deal with somewhat different dynamics here.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Apr, 2009 06:58 pm
@Foxfyre,
Of course. American Exceptionalism has always been a sufficient explanation for why there's absolutely no point in comparing the United States with any other country in the world.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Apr, 2009 07:16 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
I will remind you that the USA is not Japan or China or Korea or any European country and we deal with somewhat different dynamics here.


Oh so true, Foxy. The overweening manner of a large portion of the population. Based on nothing more than a pack of lies.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Apr, 2009 07:47 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:
I think that's a lame excuse. Companies like Tesla Motors are continuously sold out and have long waiting lists even in the current economic climate - and they are an American car company.

I've been to a few garage sales that were sold out as well, but it doesn't mean they sold that much stuff. How many cars has Tesla Motors sold? And how many people can afford a car with a base price of 50 grand? And the website says cars, Model S, won't be delivered until 2011 even if you order one now, which does me no good even if I had 50 grand.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Apr, 2009 08:05 pm
@okie,
Hey, I'm not a spokesman for small innovative American car companies. If you guys are so enamoured with huge corporations that have failed to come up with any kind of innovation in the last two decades and that now have to be propped up with taxpayer money so they don't collapse, I probably won't change your opinions.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Apr, 2009 08:57 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Hey, I'm not a spokesman for small innovative American car companies. If you guys are so enamoured with huge corporations that have failed to come up with any kind of innovation in the last two decades and that now have to be propped up with taxpayer money so they don't collapse, I probably won't change your opinions.

I can't wait to see the Obama car that he comes up with, to make everyone buy.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 08:04 am
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Of course. American Exceptionalism has always been a sufficient explanation for why there's absolutely no point in comparing the United States with any other country in the world.


American uniqueness is real. The country, the principles upon which it was founded, and the intent of our Constitution was to be unique in the world; a grand experiment that succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams. The undergirding that supported it was a desire to be rid of authoritarian dictatorship and oppressive government--to prevent us from doing violence to one another, but otherwise to be free to follow whatever dreams we could envision. The more we adhered to that fundamental principle, the better off we were. And the more that we have gotten away from that, our freedoms and all they gain us have been relentlessly chipped away at. I'm sorry that you think it presumptious of us to see something other than conformity as a virtue.

Of course you take the concept to extreme with your "absolutely no point'" comment which intellectual honesty would inform most people is a straw man, but oh well. I wonder what you'll conjure up to sneer at when we finally become mostly like Germany? Or will you then consider us perfection or at least worthy of a smidgeon of commendation?
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 09:10 am
@Foxfyre,
I think this boils down to envy, Foxfyre. To Europeans, Europe is the center of the Universe, and who is America think she is anyway. Just because she bailed out Europe from dictators and madmen in the last century, and just because she is almost the only one left in the world to pronounce evil for what it is to the extent to actually put her money and blood where her mouth is, she is supposed to apologize. And Obama apparently agrees.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 10:17 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
American uniqueness is real.


Sure. And so is the uniqueness of every other country in the world. Isn't that amazing?


Foxfyre wrote:
The country, the principles upon which it was founded, and the intent of our Constitution was to be unique in the world; a grand experiment that succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams.


Oh, it certainly succeeded. It success is certainly comparable with that of all those other countries who overcame repressive regimes, civil war and discrimination against various groups of its own people to finally form a democracy where virtually everybody enjoys the same rights.


Foxfyre wrote:
The undergirding that supported it was a desire to be rid of authoritarian dictatorship and oppressive government--to prevent us from doing violence to one another, but otherwise to be free to follow whatever dreams we could envision. The more we adhered to that fundamental principle, the better off we were. And the more that we have gotten away from that, our freedoms and all they gain us have been relentlessly chipped away at.


Oh, yes. That's certainly only the case for the United States of America.


Foxfyre wrote:
I'm sorry that you think it presumptious of us to see something other than conformity as a virtue.


I'm sorry that you think you have to come up with a strawman in order to attack what I've said, but the opposite is the case. I like your multicultural society. I like the fact that your government prints forms in a multitude of languages. I like the fact that groups of immigrants are free to speak their own language rather than being forced to speak English. I don't find conformity to be a virtue, I find it to be boring.


Foxfyre wrote:
Of course you take the concept to extreme with your "absolutely no point'" comment which intellectual honesty would inform most people is a straw man, but oh well. I wonder what you'll conjure up to sneer at when we finally become mostly like Germany?


I'm not laughing at the idea that you're different from Germany (or any other country), I'm laughing at the idea that because of those differences, America is a better country and that would be foolhardy to even try to compare certain aspects of American society with the specific counterparts in other countries.


Foxfyre wrote:
Or will you then consider us perfection or at least worthy of a smidgeon of commendation?


There are a lot of things to be said in favour of America. The idea that certain people hold that America is superior to any other country in the world, however, is not amongst those things.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 10:30 am
@okie,
okie wrote:
I think this boils down to envy, Foxfyre. To Europeans, Europe is the center of the Universe, and who is America think she is anyway.


I think you're really mistaken on that count. In my experience Europeans, on average, are a lot more aware of what is going on in America than the average American is following what's happening in Europe.

okie wrote:
Just because she bailed out Europe from dictators and madmen in the last century,


Well, thanks for that. It probably was partly out of altruism and not merely because the axis powers posed a threat to the United States that America decided to "bail out Europe". Just like it was altruism on part of all those European powers who ended up fighting not only in America, but all over the Europa, the European colonies and even in India for American independence....


okie wrote:
and just because she is almost the only one left in the world to pronounce evil for what it is


Yes. Apart from America, there's no country left in the world that can get on the moral high horse and correctly point out who in the world is evil and who is good.

Good thing somebody is doing that job.


okie wrote:
to the extent to actually put her money and blood where her mouth is,


By not only threatening, but also actually invading countries? Or do you have anything else in mind here?


okie wrote:
she is supposed to apologize.


Here's a deal: once you stop demanding a profound "Thank you" for liberating us from tyrannical regimes that we would all still live under if it wasn't for the United States, we'll all stop demanding an apology from you for being a superpower. Would that work for you?


okie wrote:
And Obama apparently agrees.


Oh yeah. Glad you managed to mention that everything is Obama's fault. Would have been terrible to forget bringing that up. Well done.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 01:52 pm
@Foxfyre,
foxfire wrote :

Quote:
The government began meddling more and more with regulation and mandates that made it even more difficult to compete with burgeoning foreign markets.

i am not aware that the U.S. government interfered with U.S. car manufacturers wanting to sell their cars in "burgening foreign markets " .
i know for a fact that U.S. cars were readily available at quite LOW PRICES in germany - but they didn't attract many buyers .
one of the problems was that the U.S. manufacturers were not keen to adjust their cars to the foreign tastes .
foreign manufacturers that wanted to succeed in the U.S. quickly adjusted their products to american tastes (i believe it's called "know they customer" ) .


Quote:
Our auto makers cut so many corners trying to be competitive that they earned a reputation of making inferior cars coupled with making cars nobody wanted.

no comment needed , i believe .


Quote:
The foreign auto makers seized a large chunk of the pie.

no comment needed either , i believe .

Quote:
The American automakers corrected that are now making superb automobiles again but have had a tough time regaining their reputation.

it seems that customers had become more demanding ("know they customer" )

Quote:
Amerians had become conditioned to think foreign cars are better.

you mean that they actually liked the cars they bought , don't you ?

as i mentioned more than once , i drove an olds-intrigue - built in kansas - in 1999 and drove it for nine years - quite a good car really . it had a twin-cam 205 hp engine - quite a nice performer .
but GM decided to no longer produce such a car . they apparently knew better what the customer wanted than the customer . i really could not understand why GM decided to no longer produce this "cadillac-for-the-common-person" .
i'm sure if the engineers and other professsionals put their minds together , they'll be able to produce cars for today's marketplace . they should just make sure that some P.R. or advertising agency doesn't lead them down the wrong path - glitziness alone won't make a product - it has to perform !

there are actually plenty of foreign car manufacturers that didn't attract american buyers for their products and packed up and left ; think : austin , hillman , renault , citroen , fiat ... ...
hbg

ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 02:44 pm
America succeeded in getting rid of bad guys in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East motivated by enlightened self-interest.

America is trying to get rid of bad guys in Africa motivated by enlightened altruism. The result of this effort in Africa is an increase in bad guys and an increase in the suffering of good guys.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 03:13 pm
@hamburger,
No doubt about that the US auto makers also shot themselves in the foot and I did not say nor did I intend to imply that the three things listed above were the ONLY things that sunk the U.S. auto manufacturing industry. But I do think those three things were the catalyst or the foundation for the lion's share of U.S. auto woes and had those three things not occurred, the rest would most likely not have snowballed into the problems we have today. There are almost certainly exceptions, but I'm guessing that the large share of those industries that the government, unions, and predatory lawyers have stayed out of have mostly not run into the same kinds of problems.

And there is always the problem of graft and corruption that you usually don't have to scratch very deeply to find some government official or bureaucrat involved in some way or another. That is less likely to happen when the government maintains a hands off policy.

What would happen if the government did not impose all the rules and regs and environmental requirements on the auto industry? What if the government would pass laws that prevented frivolous lawsuits or sensibly tightened the justification for what a manufacturer can be held responsible? What if the auto makers could dump their oppressive unions? What if the free market again dictated what the auto makers would make? Would it make a difference? I think it might.

I know that sooner of later the public dictates what manufacturers will make much more effectively than the government does so. And if the public is persuaded that ecofriendly automobiles are what they want, then that's what the auto makers will build. The government can effectively provide incentive through tax credits or whatever to encourage certain behavior. But it should not be in the business of dictating the tastes the consumers are expected to have.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 03:37 pm
On another issue related to global warming, how many of you are comfortable with the USA intentionally combating global warming by polluting the stratosphere and/or trophosphere? Does that give you a strong sense of security or are they REALLY meddling with stuff that, given the government's track record for accuracy and competence, we don't want meddled with?

More important, who are they listening to that is convincing them of this cliff we're about to drive over?

Quote:
AP Newsbreak: Obama looks at climate engineering
Apr 8 10:55 AM US/Eastern
By SETH BORENSTEIN
AP Science Writer Comments (466) Share on Facebook

WASHINGTON (AP) - The president's new science adviser said Wednesday that global warming is so dire, the Obama administration is discussing radical technologies to cool Earth's air.

John Holdren told The Associated Press in his first interview since being confirmed last month that the idea of geoengineering the climate is being discussed. One such extreme option includes shooting pollution particles into the upper atmosphere to reflect the sun's rays. Holdren said such an experimental measure would only be used as a last resort.

"It's got to be looked at," he said. "We don't have the luxury of taking any approach off the table."

Holdren outlined several "tipping points" involving global warming that could be fast approaching. Once such milestones are reached, such as complete loss of summer sea ice in the Arctic, it increases chances of "really intolerable consequences," he said.

Twice in a half-hour interview, Holdren compared global warming to being "in a car with bad brakes driving toward a cliff in the fog."

At first, Holdren characterized the potential need to technologically tinker with the climate as just his personal view. However, he went on to say he has raised it in administration discussions.

Holdren, a 65-year-old physicist, is far from alone in taking geoengineering more seriously. The National Academy of Science is making climate tinkering the subject of its first workshop in its new multidiscipline climate challenges program. The British parliament has also discussed the idea.

The American Meteorological Society is crafting a policy statement on geoengineering that says "it is prudent to consider geoengineering's potential, to understand its limits and to avoid rash deployment."

Last week, Princeton scientist Robert Socolow told the National Academy that geoengineering should be an available option in case climate worsens dramatically.

But Holdren noted that shooting particles into the air"making an artificial volcano as one Nobel laureate has suggested"could have grave side effects and would not completely solve all the problems from soaring greenhouse gas emissions. So such actions could not be taken lightly, he said.

Still, "we might get desperate enough to want to use it," he added.

Another geoengineering option he mentioned was the use of so-called artificial trees to suck carbon dioxide"the chief human-caused greenhouse gas"out of the air and store it. At first that seemed prohibitively expensive, but a re-examination of the approach shows it might be less costly, he said.
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D97ECHLG1&show_article=1

0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 03:44 pm
@Foxfyre,
foxfire wrote :

Quote:
What if the government would pass laws that prevented frivolous lawsuits or sensibly tightened the justification for what a manufacturer can be held responsible?


but are you sure that american citizens would want to see their rights to sue corporations and each other restricted ?
if the GOVERNMENT would pass such statutes limiting law suits , would that not be government interference in THE FREE SOCIETY ?


i found this article on THE LAW IN JAPAN quite interesting .
while there are comparatively fewer lawyers in japan than in the U.S. and other western countries , they have a lot of "scriveners" who are doing all the minor legal work that are reseved for lawyers in north-america .

http://www.davidappleyard.com/japan/jp5.htm

Quote:
For every 320 Americans there is a lawyer " indeed, with 799,960 lawyers among a population of 255,600,000, America may have the highest proportion of lawyers per capita in the world. In England, there are 694 Englishmen per lawyer, in France 2,461 Frenchmen per lawyer and in Japan 8,195 Japanese per lawyer. Lest you think the Japanese are exceptionally poorly served, you may wish to reflect that there are 15,748 Koreans per lawyer, with a mere 2,813 lawyers for Korea's population of 44,300,000.*


of course , there is more at the above link - well worth a couple of minutes imo .
take care.
hbg
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 03:58 pm
@hamburger,
You must have missed my tongue-in-cheek posts (here or elsewhere) suggesting that Japan have to take one of our lawyers for every Japanese car we imported into the United States. I figured that they would be as screwed up as we are in no time and wouldn't be as able to compete. (Disclaimer: many lawyers are good people and necessary and aren't screwing up anything.)

Do I think that most Americans, if provided honest and unbiased information about what frivolous lawsuits and class action suits are costing them, would be almost universally in agreement that the people should not be able to successfully sue manufacturers for anything other than provable negligence that causes real and quantifiable injury. It has gotten so bad in the United States that the manufactuer of a straw broom can be sued if he doesn't provide a clearly obvious warning that the product is not edible.

But as long as it is mostly opportunisitic lawyers running for public office and getting elected these days, it is unlikely we will see any major reform any time soon. They aren't about to pass laws that would eliminate some of their own lucrative bread and butter.
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 04:05 pm
@Foxfyre,
foxfire :

i get your point (and we have plenty of lawyers in canada too ) .
it seems to be part of OUR TRADITION .

here is an old german joke for your amusement :
father answering when being asked about his son's profession after graduating :
"i wanted him to become a baker , but he is too stupid for that so i told him to become a lawyer " .

no disrespect to any lawyers on a2k and elsewhere - just an old joke .
hbg
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 05:55 pm
It seems that lying is a way of life for the right.

MEDIA -- WASHINGTON POST COLUMNIST GEORGE WILL FABRICATES ENTIRE RESEARCH CENTER: On Feb. 15, Washington Post columnist George Will wrote an error-riddled, entirely misleading column denying the calamity of climate change. Yesterday, the Wonk Room's Brad Johnson confirmed another egregious error in the column: Will cited "the University of Illinois' Arctic Climate Research Center" to falsely claim that sea ice levels have not diminished -- but no such center exists. "The Arctic climate is a research area of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign's [UIUC] Department of Atmospheric Sciences, and the informal group of researchers does go by the label of the Polar Research Group," Johnson wrote. "However, 'there is no such center at the University of Illinois,' the UIUC's Dr. John Walsh has informed me in electronic correspondence. 'There is a group of scientists and students working on Arctic climate, but no formal center.'" Despite the numerous outlets that pointed out Will's false claims in his original column, the Washington Post refused to run a correction. In fact, editor Fred Hiatt defended Will at the time, saying he was simply "drawing inferences from data that most scientists reject" and calling Will's critics "irresponsible."

--americanprogressaction.org
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 07:51 pm
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb

As of December 20, 2007, over 400 prominent scientists--not a minority of those scientists who have published their views on global warming--from more than two dozen countries have voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.

Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report
251
Economist David Henderson, a Professor at the Westminster Business School and former Chief economist for the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, derided the UN IPCC process in a presentation in Brussels on April 18, 2007. "I believe that there is a problem of unwarranted trust in the IPCC process and in the role of the Panel itself, a problem which the Stern Review shows no awareness of. In peer-reviewed work that the IPCC has drawn on, the authors concerned have failed to make due disclosure of data, sources and procedures, and the IPCC has not required them to do so," Henderson said. Noting that he believed the IPCC "has acquired what is effectively a monopoly position," Henderson said the IPCC was "far from being a model of rigor, inclusiveness and impartiality." "To begin with, the very idea of creating a single would-be authoritative fount of wisdom is itself open to doubt. Even if the IPCC process were indisputably and consistently rigorous, objective and professionally watertight, it is imprudent for governments to place virtually exclusive reliance, in matters of extraordinary complexity where huge uncertainties prevail, on a single source of analysis and advice and a single process of inquiry. Viewed in this light, the very notion of setting consensus as an aim appears as questionable if not ill-judged," he said. Henderson also dismissed the Stern Review as "a heavily biased, exercise in speculative alarmism" and urged governments to "think again" about the focus on CO2 reductions. "Rather than pursuing as a matter of urgency ambitious and costly targets for curbing CO2 emissions, [governments] should take prompt steps to ensure that they and their citizens are more fully and more objectively informed and advised," he said


 

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