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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Mar, 2009 09:06 am
In case there was any doubt that there is an underlying agenda that is likely to set aside ANY evidence, no matter how compelling, that however the climate is changing, it is most likely from natural causes, look at this. QUESTION: Who is driving this and why?

Quote:
U.N. 'Climate Change' Plan Would Likely Shift Trillions to Form New World Economy
Friday, March 27, 2009
By George Russell

A United Nations document on "climate change" that will be distributed to a major environmental conclave next week envisions a huge reordering of the world economy, likely involving trillions of dollars in wealth transfer, millions of job losses and gains, new taxes, industrial relocations, new tariffs and subsidies, and complicated payments for greenhouse gas abatement schemes and carbon taxes " all under the supervision of the world body.

Those and other results are blandly discussed in a discretely worded United Nations "information note" on potential consequences of the measures that industrialized countries will likely have to take to implement the Copenhagen Accord, the successor to the Kyoto Treaty, after it is negotiated and signed by December 2009. The Obama administration has said it supports the treaty process if, in the words of a U.S. State Department spokesman, it can come up with an "effective framework" for dealing with global warming.

The 16-page note, obtained by FOX News, will be distributed to participants at a mammoth negotiating session that starts on March 29 in Bonn, Germany, the first of three sessions intended to hammer out the actual commitments involved in the new deal.

In the stultifying language that is normal for important U.N. conclaves, the negotiators are known as the "Ad Hoc Working Group On Further Commitments For Annex I Parties Under the Kyoto Protocol." Yet the consequences of their negotiations, if enacted, would be nothing short of world-changing.

Getting that deal done has become the United Nations' highest priority, and the Bonn meeting is seen as a critical step along the path to what the U.N. calls an "ambitious and effective international response to climate change," which is intended to culminate at the later gathering in Copenhagen.

Just how ambitious the U.N.'s goals are can be seen, but only dimly, in the note obtained by FOX News, which offers in sparse detail both positive and negative consequences of the tools that industrial nations will most likely use to enforce the greenhouse gas reduction targets.

The paper makes no effort to calculate the magnitude of the costs and disruption involved, but despite the discreet presentation, makes clear that they will reverberate across the entire global economic system.

• Click here for the information note.

Among the tools that are considered are the cap-and-trade system for controlling carbon emissions that has been espoused by the Obama administration; "carbon taxes" on imported fuels and energy-intensive goods and industries, including airline transportation; and lower subsidies for those same goods, as well as new or higher subsidies for goods that are considered "environmentally sound."

Other tools are referred to only vaguely, including "energy policy reform," which the report indicates could affect "large-scale transportation infrastructure such as roads, rail and airports." When it comes to the results of such reform, the note says only that it could have "positive consequences for alternative transportation providers and producers of alternative fuels."

In the same bland manner, the note informs negotiators without going into details that cap-and-trade schemes "may induce some industrial relocation" to "less regulated host countries." Cap-and-trade functions by creating decreasing numbers of pollution-emission permits to be traded by industrial users, and thus pay more for each unit of carbon-based pollution, a market-driven system that aims to drive manufacturers toward less polluting technologies.

The note adds only that industrial relocation "would involve negative consequences for the implementing country, which loses employment and investment." But at the same time it "would involve indeterminate consequences for the countries that would host the relocated industries."

There are also entirely new kinds of tariffs and trade protectionist barriers such as those termed in the note as "border carbon adjustment"" which, the note says, can impose "a levy on imported goods equal to that which would have been imposed had they been produced domestically" under more strict environmental regimes.

Another form of "adjustment" would require exporters to "buy [carbon] offsets at the border equal to that which the producer would have been forced to purchase had the good been produced domestically."

The impact of both schemes, the note says, "would be functionally equivalent to an increased tariff: decreased market share for covered foreign producers." (There is no definition in the report of who, exactly, is "foreign.") The note adds that "If they were implemented fairly, such schemes would leave trade and investment patterns unchanged." Nothing is said about the consequences if such fairness was not achieved.

Indeed, only rarely does the "information note" attempt to inform readers in dollar terms of the impact of "spillover effects" from the potential policy changes it discusses. In a brief mention of consumer subsidies for fossil fuels, the note remarks that such subsidies in advanced economies exceed $60 billion a year, while they exceed $90 billion a year in developing economies."

But calculations of the impact of tariffs, offsets, or other subsidies is rare. In a reference to the impact of declining oil exports, the report says that Saudi Arabia has determined the loss to its economy at between $100 billion and $200 billion by 2030, but said nothing about other oil exporters.

One reason for the lack of detail, the note indicates, is that impact would vary widely depending on the nature and scope of the policies adopted (and, although the note does not mention it, on the severity of the greenhouse reduction targets).

But even when it does hazard a guess at specific impacts, the report seems curiously hazy. A "climate change levy on aviation" for example, is described as having undetermined "negative impacts on exporters of goods that rely on air transport, such as cut flowers and premium perishable produce," as well as "tourism services." But no mention is made in the note of the impact on the aerospace industry, an industry that had revenues in 2008 of $208 billion in the U.S. alone, or the losses the levy would impose on airlines for ordinary passenger transportation. (Global commercial airline revenues in 2008 were about $530 billion, and were already forecast to drop to an estimated $467 billion this year.)

In other cases, as when discussing the "increased costs of traditional exports" under a new environmental regime, the report confines itself to terse description. Changes in standards and labeling for exported goods, for example, "may demand costly changes to the production process." If subsidies and tariffs affect exports, the note says, the "economic and social consequences of dampening their viability may, for some countries and sectors, be significant."

Much depends, of course, on the extent to which harsher or more lenient greenhouse gas reduction targets demand more or less drastic policies for their achievement.

And, precisely because the Bonn meeting is a stage for negotiating those targets, the note is silent. Instead it suggests that more bureaucratic work is needed "to deepen the understanding of the full nature and scale of such impacts."

But outside the Bonn process, other experts have been much more blunt about the draconian nature of the measures they deem necessary to make "effective" greenhouse gas reductions.

In an influential but highly controversial paper called "Key Elements of a Global Deal on Climate Change," British economist Nicholas Lord Stern, formerly a high British Treasury official, has declared that industrial economies would need to cut their per capita carbon dioxide emissions by "at least 80% by 2050," while the biggest economies, like the U.S.'s, would have to make cuts of 90 percent.

Stern also calls for "immediate and binding" reduction targets for developed nations of 20 percent to 40 percent by 2020.

To meet Stern's 2050 goals, he says, among other things, "most of the world's electricity production will need to have been decarbonized."
MORE HERE:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,510937,00.html
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Mar, 2009 10:30 am
The "Ad Hoc Working Group on Further Commitments for Annex I Parties under the Kyoto Protocol (AWG-KP)" has it's seventh meeting since 2005 next weekend.

And the 8th is again in Bonn, from 1 - 12 June 2009.

And the 9th in Bangkok, from 28 September - 9 October.

And the 10th in Copenhagen, from 7 - 18 December 2009.

And all is online.

Quote:
In 2009 the Group will focus on agreeing on further commitments for Annex I Parties under the Kyoto Protocol. Such an agreement will emerge as the Group develops and considers:

* A text for any proposed amendments pursuant to Article 3.9 of the Kyoto Protocol
* A text on the issues outlined in paragraph 49 of document FCCC/KP/AWG/2008/8

At its seventh session, the AWG-KP will discuss issues identified in paragraph 49 of document FCCC/KP/AWG/2008/8. It will also consider four notes prepared by the Chair with a view to advancing work on the texts referred to above and agreeing on a draft amendment text.

ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Mar, 2009 04:20 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre, this UN document does not describe:
expected future climate change trends if the changes advocated ARE ADOPTED versus expected future climate change trends if the changes advocated ARE NOT ADOPTED.

Consequently, no thinking person can decide whether the changes advocated are worth the price whatever that price is.

Of course, if the next UN document on this topic does discuss expected future climate trends with and without making the recommended changes, the UN would have to show how they KNOW what the trends will be with and without making the recommended changes. Otherwise, a thinking person would not be able to analyze the accuracy of those future trend expectations.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Mar, 2009 05:18 pm
@ican711nm,
I am guessing you didn't build a thing as an engineer ican based on your logic about global warming. After all, you are a "thinking" person that requires that the answer be absolute before you will do anything.

ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Mar, 2009 07:15 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
I am guessing you didn't build a thing as an engineer ican
That's merely another of your bad guesses, parados.

Have you built anything as an engineer?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Mar, 2009 07:28 pm
@ican711nm,
I am curious how you were able as a "thinking person" make sure your calculations were correct since any tables you used for strength of materials doesn't tell you exactly how those tables were created.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Mar, 2009 06:18 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

You do realize that warmer air has more water vapor than cooler air at the same humidity, don't you? They don't assume the same amount of water vapor.
You miss the point. I was not addressing how much water air can hold, I was addressing how much does it hold, has the atmosphere held, historically, how that has fluctuated, and how has that affected climate. When they make an asumption of constant relative humidity, my point stands, their models ignore the variability and its effects upon climate.

Quote:
They assume the same humidity. Your analysis of their use of water vapor is what is garbage okie.

My point stands. Any model that does not incorporate actual projected variable data for the most important greenhouse gas, based upon good historical data in the way of world averages for a very long time, and instead attempts to evaluate a minor greenhouse gas, that is garbage in - garbage out.

Quote:
You don't think the 60 years of data on humidity I directed you to is enough? Then I can't help you okie.
I saw no historical chart of average world water vapor concentrations, Parados. If your link had one, please point it out. What I saw instead were maps with zones, for various time periods, thats all. If I missed something, please point it out. In the meantime, my point stands. They have created models of projected climate based upon one variable, while ignoring other far more important variables by assuming constancy, which they make simply because they do not have data to do anything else.

Thus my conclusion is exactly as I have previously stated, they are making projections of an answer to an equation by only studying one very minor variable in the equation and by gathering only data on one variable, while assuming other much bigger variables are constant. I think that is very poor math, or science, and is essentially silly. That is akin to taking an equation that is written as A + (100 x B) = C, wherein they project the value of C by studying A and ignoring B or assuming B is constant. Meanwhile, the effect of B may be approaching 100 times that of the effect of A. Very poor mathematicians, and very poor scientists, Parados. But the fact that many of the so called scientists are actually politicians probably explains the phenomena.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Mar, 2009 08:44 pm
@okie,
Point # 1 okie.. Humidity can only be 100% at a maximum. When it reaches that, it rains.
Point #2 When air is warmer it holds more water vapor before it gets to 100%.
Point #3 If you want to argue there will be higher humidity then that means more rainfall.
Point #4 One of the most important factors in classifying climates is rainfall amounts which occur when humidity reaches 100%. We have not seen any changes in climates due to increased rainfalls.
Point #5 By keeping humidity the same in the models as the globe warms they are counting on more water vapor in the air.
Point #6 By keeping humidity the same in the models they are keeping most climate areas the same even though they will warm slightly.

Quote:
Thus my conclusion is exactly as I have previously stated, they are making projections of an answer to an equation by only studying one very minor variable in the equation and by gathering only data on one variable, while assuming other much bigger variables are constant.
No, they do NOT assume water vapor stays the same. They assume humidity does. Your argument is from ignorance. I have been able to find one source that says the models assume that water vapor goes from 14,000 ppm to 14,600 ppm. I have not been able to confirm that with another source yet.

Quote:
I think that is very poor math, or science, and is essentially silly. That is akin to taking an equation that is written as A + (100 x B) = C, wherein they project the value of C by studying A and ignoring B or assuming B is constant.
No, they don't assume B is constant. They assume B increases based on the increase in temperature. Basically humidity is the water vapor currently in the air compared to the total water that a volume of air can hold before dew point is reached. At one temperature a volume of air may only hold 10grams of water at dewpoint but at another warmer temperature it may hold 15 grams at dewpoint. That means 50% humidity in the first is 5grams of water but 50% humidity in the second is 7.5grams of water. So when they hold humidity constant they are NOT keeping the amount of water vapor constant.

Quote:
Meanwhile, the effect of B may be approaching 100 times that of the effect of A.

Yes, and its called the water vapor feedback and is included in global warming models. Some science suggests there is not as much of a feedback from water vapor as is included in the models. Essentially, what it would mean is that at some point there are enough water vapor molecules that it blocks all IR in it's range so adding more water doesn't increase the amount of IR blocked.

Quote:
Very poor mathematicians, and very poor scientists, Parados. But the fact that many of the so called scientists are actually politicians probably explains the phenomena.
They are poor mathematicians because they didn't make your obvious errors? I would congratulate them for that.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2009 03:13 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Leaders to meet in summer for special climate change talks:
Quote:
Leaders attending the G20 meeting in London plan to gather again in the summer for a special summit on tackling climate change, The Independent on Sunday can reveal.
[...]
News of the summit comes as governments gather in Bonn today to start eight months of negotiations on an agreement to replace the Kyoto Protocol, which are to climax at a conference in Copenhagen in December. The conference is widely seen as the world's last chance of getting global warming under control before it precipitates disastrous climate change.

This month President Obama wrote to Gordon Brown and the leaders of France, Germany, Russia, Italy, Japan, Canada, China, India, Brazil, South Africa, Mexico, South Korea, Australia and Indonesia to propose the summit, and the plan has gelled over the past week. Ironically, it will take place under the auspices of a mechanism " the "major economies" meetings " started by the former US president, George W Bush, to detract from the international attempt to get a new treaty, rather than galvanise it.

The initiative is one of the clearest signs to date of the unexpectedly high priority the new President is giving to combating climate change.

Gordon Brown has repeatedly pledged that the G20 London summit would launch a "global green new deal". Many, will be disappointed, however, at the failure of the G20 talks to commit nations to take the opportunity offered by the huge spending on stimulus packages to allocate a high proportion of the money to recession-beating environmental measures.

Countries have earmarked widely varying percentages (see graphic). South Korea leads with 81 per cent, while Britain is one of the worst performers at 7 per cent. China has earmarked more than 110 times as much money as the UK for the purpose.
[...]



http://i40.tinypic.com/s1pbb6.jpg
Source: Independent on Sunday, 29.03.09, page 13
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2009 08:52 am
@parados,
I finally tested it by building it, and then tested it to examine how well it worked, and then tested it some more to determine how long it functioned before it failed.

By the way, my "tables used for strength of materials" did tell me exactly how I could test their results. So I did sample test those tables.

I am unable to test the veracity of anything you claim to be true any other way than to test its logic and/or test what you allege are facts with sources I trust as a result of my testing them.

I judge your falsities to be so numerous and frequent as to render your judgment unreliable. The best evidence of your unreliability is your frequent resort to villifying those with whom you disagree instead of giving rational and testable explanations of why you disagree.

==========================================
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb

As of December 20, 2007, over 400 prominent scientists--not a minority of those scientists who have published their views on global warming--from more than two dozen countries have voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.

Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report
245
Anthropologist Dr. Benny Peiser of the Faculty of Science of Liverpool John Moores University in the UK who has published peer-reviewed studies, debunked a 2004 study published in Science which Gore cited in his movie. The study examined 928 peer-reviewed studies and found a virtual 100% consensus on man-made global warming. But Peiser's own analysis found that the study's "entire argument is flawed as the whole ISI data set includes just 13 abstracts (less than 2%) that explicitly endorse what [the author] has called the 'consensus view.'" "In fact, the vast majority of abstracts do not mention anthropogenic climate change," Peiser added. (LINK) Peiser, who edits a climate change Internet newsletter, has also noted that the media ignores the scientists and studies that cast doubt on climate alarmism. "Hardly a week goes by without a new research paper that questions part or even some basics of climate change theory," Peiser told the New York Times on March 13, 2007. (LINK) Peiser noted how science has been overtaken with an "apocalyptic" view of the future climate. "Not since the apocalyptic consensus of the Middle Ages has the prognostication of impending doom and global catastrophe on the basis of mathematical modeling been as widely accepted as today," Peiser noted in an April 18, 2007 presentation to European Parliament on climate change. "Ironically, these apocalyptic predictions of the future are politically sanctioned at the same time as a growing number of scientists are recognizing that environmental and economic computer modeling of an inherently unpredictable future is illogical and futile," Peiser said. "Over the last 10 years, the editors of the world's leading science journals such as Science and Nature as well as popular science magazines such as Scientific American and New Scientist have publicly advocated drastic policies to curb CO2 emissions. At the same time, they have publicly attacked scientists skeptical of the climate consensus," Peiser noted.

parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2009 08:54 am
@ican711nm,
Quote:
I finally tested it by building it, and then tested it to examine how well it worked, and then tested it some more to determine how long it functioned before it failed.

So, you weren't a "thinking person" at that time?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2009 09:13 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Point # 1 okie.. Humidity can only be 100% at a maximum. When it reaches that, it rains.
Point #2 When air is warmer it holds more water vapor before it gets to 100%.
Point #3 If you want to argue there will be higher humidity then that means more rainfall.
Point #4 One of the most important factors in classifying climates is rainfall amounts which occur when humidity reaches 100%. We have not seen any changes in climates due to increased rainfalls.
Point #5 By keeping humidity the same in the models as the globe warms they are counting on more water vapor in the air.
Point #6 By keeping humidity the same in the models they are keeping most climate areas the same even though they will warm slightly.

None of your points are pertinent to what I pointed out. I am not disputing or debating about how much water vapor can air hold before it rains, I am pointing out the lack of data for actual water vapor measurements, worldwide, historically. And I question your point #4, that climate or temperature averages do not change with greater rainfall. I would love to see the backup proof of that.

Quote:
No, they do NOT assume water vapor stays the same. They assume humidity does.

Same fallacy applies.
Quote:
Quote:
Very poor mathematicians, and very poor scientists, Parados. But the fact that many of the so called scientists are actually politicians probably explains the phenomena.
They are poor mathematicians because they didn't make your obvious errors? I would congratulate them for that.

I made no errors, because I did not attempt to solve an equation with insufficient information, and by plugging in assumptions that are pulled out of the air. So your posts confirm, the data do not exist. Thanks for trying, Parados.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 07:09 am
@okie,
Quote:

None of your points are pertinent to what I pointed out. I am not disputing or debating about how much water vapor can air hold before it rains, I am pointing out the lack of data for actual water vapor measurements, worldwide, historically.

You don't seem to understand how water vapor is measured okie.
Your are only pointing out your inability to believe in measurements that do exist and have been used for scientific papers. I gave you links to where and how the data has been used. Just because there isn't a set of data free on the internet does not mean it doesn't exist.

Quote:
And I question your point #4, that climate or temperature averages do not change with greater rainfall. I would love to see the backup proof of that.
Did you read my point? You certainly aren't addressing anything I said.

Quote:

Same fallacy applies.
The only fallacy I see is yours okie as you argue from ignorance.

Since 1978 we have had global readings by satellite.
Unless you have other information, as far as I know every weather station that records temperature also records humidity.
NCDC will be happy to sell you the information of weather stations from 1887 to the present.
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/about/ncdcordering.html

Here are 60 years of records for Denver
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/about/ncdcordering.html
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 12:24 pm
Water vapor in the atmosphere absorbs some of the solar radiation it receives as well as reflects some of it.

Parados, how does that fact relate to your and Obama-crats' statements that humans are causing climate change?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 12:48 pm
@parados,
You continue to evade the point. Again, I issue the challenge, show me a graph with water vapor average worldwide, as it has varied historically. Can you do it? And can you show that the global warmers have studied this and correlated this with world temperature averages? I'm tired of seeing nothing but CO2 studies, which is a very minor greenhouse gas, especially considering the manmade amount, very minor, Parados. I would rather see some significant work on water vapor. If there is any, as it relates to global temperatures, historically.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 01:03 pm
@okie,
Trying to nail jello to the wall again, Okie? Smile

Some debates go more constructively than others.

The pro-AGW religionists won't often deal with anything really specific. If it interferes with the illusions that Al Gore and his ilk have created, they just change the subject.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 08:11 pm
http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/tmwst09033020090330094550.jpg
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 08:26 pm
"I pulled up to Al's house, located in the posh Belle Meade section of Nashville, at 8:48pm " right in the middle of Earth Hour. I found that the main spotlights that usually illuminate his 9,000 square foot mansion were dark, but several of the lights inside the house were on. …
The kicker, though, were the dozen or so floodlights grandly highlighting several trees and illuminating the driveway entrance of Gore's mansion.
I [kid] you not, my friends, the savior of the environment couldn't be bothered to turn off the gaudy lights that show off his goofy trees."


http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2009/03/al_gore_celebra.html

http://www.moonbattery.com/Gore-mansion.jpg
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 08:30 pm
@okie,
Let's start this simple okie..
Do you understand what relative humidity is?

Do you understand that the atmosphere can hold more water vapor when it is warm?

Do you understand that relative humidity is directly related to the amount of water vapor in the air?

Do you understand that a simple formula can be used to figure the amount of water vapor when temperature and humidity are known?

If you don't understand all of these, then I can understand how you don't see that any work has been done with humidity is also about water vapor.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 08:55 pm
@parados,
I am not arguing any of those points, but none of those points tell us how much water vapor has averaged and varied in the atmosphere, worldwide, historically. If you have the data, post it please. If it is available, I am sure it could be found somewhere on the web.
 

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