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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2008 01:49 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
As I understand it Walt your Gov't announced that it would not shoot down a hi-jacked airliner even if it thought the hi-jackers intended crashing it into a major sporting event.

Is that correct?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2008 02:19 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

As I understand it Walt your Gov't announced that it would not shoot down a hi-jacked airliner even if it thought the hi-jackers intended crashing it into a major sporting event.

Is that correct?


No. You must have misunderstood something:

a) the Federal Constitutional Court had said that only airliners with only terrorists, without other persons, can be shot down under certain circumstances.
That's from 2006: AZ: 1 BvR 357/05 . The related articles from the Basic Law are article 1, section 1 and article 2, section 2, subsection 1 [ Basic Law ("German constitution"),

b) because of that, the relevent section in the 'air safety law' became void

c) in peace time ('war on terror', 'war on drugs', 'war on the autobahns' etc is according to our constitution as well as by common understanding still peacetime) the commander-in-chief of the German forces ('Bundeswehr') is the defense minister. He said, he would should give orders, even it was unconstitutional.


The law doesn't mention a major sports event - link to the law: http://bundesrecht.juris.de/luftsig/index.html - nor is such to be found in the court's verdict (link: http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/entscheidungen/rs20060215_1bvr035705.html)
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2008 03:07 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
It wasn't me who misunderstood Walt. It was the News team who broadcast what I had said. I thought it a wise decision.

I assumed it was an airliner full of holiday makers. Everybody would shoot down a plane with only terrorists on board surely.

I think Germany was hosting some major event in a few weeks time. Everybody was on edge about it.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2008 04:36 pm
This argument is just like the Intelligent Design/ Meaninglessness argument. Nobody can ever prove that any changes in temperature, up or down, are not part of a natural cycle and thus outside our control.

It is therefore obvious that the argument rages for other reasons. The main one being that it can go on for ever without resolution, perish the thought, and everybody in it enjoys it and a few make a bob or two on the side.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 12:45 am
The German churches - and especially the Evangelical/Protestant churches - are leading forces in environmental protection and climate change activists as well.

The 'Green Cockerel' (an initiative in nearly all of our Protestant/Evangelical churches) had a meeting here last weekend.

"The duty to preserve God's Creation is at the core of the Judeo-Christian tradition," they said.
"To show true Christian attitude, it is essential to work onwards that the earth stay habitable for future generations. ... This can't be left in the hands of commercial enterprises, banks and municipalities," it was pointed out.


Some days ago, the London Times run an article about this topic:

Quote:
German churches repent for green sins in bid to cut carbon footprint
And God said: “Let there be light,” and there was light (Genesis). And the vicar saw the light, and dimmed it (Instructions from the ecclesiastical environmental management committee).

As Germany's Christian churches go green, Sunday service is becoming chillier and darker. Shocked by the revelation that church buildings are responsible for an annual 18 million tonnes of carbon emissions " about 3 per cent of the energy-related total in Germany " religious leaders are cracking down on prodigal parishes.

Churches that achieve a big reduction in their carbon footprint receive a special label of approval, the so-called Green Cockerel.

Vicars have already begun proudly displaying the symbol in the hope that it will attract environmentally sensitive worshippers.

Collections used to focus on roof restoration. Now, as German Christians take up the burden of saving the planet, the money is for solar panels.

Boilers are being replaced. Stern notes pinned next to light switches remind users that they have a Christian obligation to save the planet.


Evangelical Church of Westphalia Environmental Management website
(Some 20 other Evangelical churches have similar websites.)
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 03:00 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Just like I said Walt. Having fun and making a bob or two. Bread and circuses.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 11:55 am
This picture with caption accompanied the following article. Perhaps our resident Brits can define "potty peer" and explain the significance of the photo?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/09/26/article-0-04E1944C0000044D-703_233x326.jpg
'Potty peer': Lord Monckton said his
sceptical views were misrepresented


BBC investigated after peer says climate change programme was biased 'one-sided polemic'
By Tamara Cohen
Last updated at 2:54 AM on 27th September 2008

'Potty peer': Lord Monckton said his sceptical views were misrepresented

The BBC is being investigated by television watchdogs after a leading climate change sceptic claimed his views were deliberately misrepresented.

Lord Monckton, a former adviser to Margaret Thatcher, says he was made to look like a ‘potty peer’ on a TV programme that ‘was a one-sided polemic for the new religion of global warming’.

Earth: The Climate Wars, which was broadcast on BBC 2, was billed as a definitive guide to the history of global warming, including arguments for and against.

During the series, Dr Iain Stewart, a geologist, interviewed leading climate change sceptics, including Lord Monckton. But the peer complained to Ofcom that the broadcast had been unfairly edited.

‘I very much hope Ofcom will do something about this,’ he said yesterday.

‘The BBC very gravely misrepresented me and several others, as well as the science behind our argument. It is a breach of its code of conduct.

‘I was interviewed for 90 minutes and all my views were backed up by sound scientific data, but this was all omitted. They made it sound as if these were just my personal views, as if I was some potty peer. It was caddish of them.’

Ofcom confirmed it was looking into a ‘fairness complaint’ about the documentary.

A BBC spokesman said: ‘We stand by the programme.’

Lord Monckton, 56, a former journalist and Cambridge graduate, says scientific data shows the world is cooler today than in the Middle Ages.

He appeared alongside other sceptics including distinguished Florida-based meteorologist Professor Fred Singer, John Christy, a climate change expert and adviser to the U.S. government and the climatologist Dr Patrick Michaels, of the University of Virginia.

All their interviews, he claims, were heavily cut so that they appeared as personal views.

‘We do not dispute that there is more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, but we do dispute its effects’, he said. ‘The data shows that 2008 is the same temperature as 1980 and that the effects of these changes in the atmosphere are not negative but more likely to be beneficial.’

Lord Monckton played a key role in a legal challenge heard in the High Court in October 2007 in an effort to prevent Al Gore’s film on global warming, An Inconvenient Truth, from being shown in English schools.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1063110/BBC-investigated-peer-says-climate-change-programme-biased-sided-polemic.html
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:10 pm
Quote:
Despite a slowing global economy, carbon dioxide emissions continued to rise in 2007, according to energy use figures from oil company BP"jumping to 8.47 billion metric tons of the most common greenhouse gas responsible for global warming or 2.9 percent higher than last year's total. Leading the charge: the U.S. (up nearly 2 percent to 1.58 billion metric tons) and China (up more than 7 percent to 1.8 billion metric tons).

These figures outpace even the worst-case projections of the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which warned last year that unless pollution is reduced, global average temperatures could rise by between four and 11 degrees Fahrenheit (two to six degrees Celsius).

http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=greenhouse-gas-pollution-up-despite-2008-09-26
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
I believe the global warming issue is similar to our politics; people see what they want to see, because they can support their side of the argument with facts and trends. My only question is, how can we know it's a unique global warming, because this planet has gone through several ice ages?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:22 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

This picture with caption accompanied the following article. Perhaps our resident Brits can define "potty peer" and explain the significance of the photo?

The photo isn't in the print edition (report on page 22 today).
Perhaps it was the best the Daily Mail could find of Christopher Walter Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley ?


Lord Monckton said, the BBC-report made him look like a 'potty peer' - someone belonging to the group of children still in potty training and not allowed to go to preschool.


Disclaimer: I'm not a Brit residence.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:25 pm
@hawkeye10,
But the point the skeptics make, Hawkeye, is the IPPC hasn't been right about much of anything re the effects of CO2 in the atmosphere yet. The climate has not cooperated with any of their models. None of us have challenged that CO2 has been increasing. The question is how much, if any, is that affecting global climate and, is it a major problem for anybody if it is changing the climate?

Inquiring minds want to know these things before we put whole economies at risk, drastically change pleasant lifestyles, give government more authority to direct our lives and/or take away our choices and freedoms.

To those on the skeptic side, which includes a whole bunch of us who are willing to be convinced, these are all valid concerns and we believe the debate should continue.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:26 pm
@cicerone imposter,
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb

As of December 20, 2007, over 400 prominent scientists--not a minority of those scientists who have published their views on global warming--from more than two dozen countries have voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.


THE DISSENTS OF THE SCIENTIFIC DISSENTERS

Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report

208, 209

Prize-wining Geologist Dr. Ian Plimer, a professor of Earth and Environmental Sciences at the University of Adelaide in Australia, rejected alarmist views of climate science in an article in the Sydney Morning Herald on April 6, 2007. "The Earth's temperature rose by 0.7 per cent in the 20th century, but there was also an increase in piracy. Does that mean piracy causes global warming?" Plimer asked. "There is new work emerging even in the last few weeks that shows we can have a very close correlation between the temperatures of the Earth and supernova and solar radiation. What if global warming has nothing to do with human activity? What happens if the astronomers are right, and the world is actually entering a cooling period?" Plimer questioned. "We geologists have seen climate change for 4500 million years. Tell us something new," he added. (LINK)

Meteorologist Jim Clark of Florida’s WZVN-TV ABC 7 declared he did not agree with what has been labeled the "consensus" view on global warming in a March 30, 2007 radio interview. Clark, an on-air weather forecaster since 1983, said, "The amount of human impact on climate change seems to be pretty small and seems very unlikely to be a disaster." "Climate is something that has always been changing on the planet. It fluctuates, it goes up and down. I have always thought of climate that is not homeostasis. So much of the current debate, it just strikes me as very odd, especially in the popular media where the headlines screamed the debate is over. Well, there never was a debate about whether the globe was warming. The real debate has always been the amount of the human effect on the climate," Clark said. (LINK) In a December 10, 2007 commentary, Clark further expanded on his climate views. “The planet has not warmed over the last decade and climate factors seem to be lining up for a global cool down, despite the ever increasing concentration of atmospheric CO2,” Clark wrote. “Those defending an impending global warming crisis try to explain the mid-20th century cooling with the notion that man-made aerosols (air pollution) cut down on the amount of sunshine reaching the surface and caused the cooling. The problem with that argument is that the cooling took place in both hemispheres, while man-made aerosols were primarily in the northern hemisphere. To this day, we do not know very much about how human emitted aerosols impact climate. Some say they produce warming. Others argue for cooling. Still some suggest that the affect of aerosols depends on there location in the atmosphere and may produce warming or cooling at different times,” he explained. “Despite the overwhelming evidence that internal cycles like the PDO (Pacific Decadal Oscillation) have played a huge role in 20th century climate change, the IPCC and the global warming community ignore them almost entirely,” he added. “It is not possible to tell just how much of the 0.06 degrees warming per decade is the result of increasing CO2 and other ‘greenhouse’ gases. Even if we assume that it accounts for 2/3 of the observed trend (unlikely), it only leads to a net warming of 0.80 degrees over the next 200 years! Such a warming would be largely beneficial and any negative impacts could be dealt with cheaply and efficiently at regional levels,” Clark concluded. (LINK) & (LINK)

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:33 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

This picture with caption accompanied the following article. Perhaps our resident Brits can define "potty peer" and explain the significance of the photo?

The photo isn't in the print edition (report on page 22 today).


The Telegraph had a short notice ('In brief') about that in today's print edition (page 10).

The Independent had a longer report yesterday already, with a photo (page 26):
http://i37.tinypic.com/29gg6ky.jpg

Independent, 26.09.08: Pandora
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:35 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Thanks Walter. That's Lord Monckton? I imagined him to be much older.

And welcome back Ican. Thought you had run for the tall grass in the wake of this strange new world we inhabit here.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:51 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

That's Lord Monckton? I imagined him to be much older.


It's Gervais, from the article on the right Embarrassed

(Actually, the Lord is just 9 years older than him [and three years younger than I am].)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 01:09 pm
@ican711nm,
"Prominent scientists" does not answer the question about cyles of earth's climate for over 4.5 billions years.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 05:29 pm
@ican711nm,
There are so many prominent scientists these days that 400 seems a small sample from a statistical point of view to take any particular notice of.

Isn't everybody who majored in an ology a scientist?
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 11:22 am
@Foxfyre,
Thank you. I decided to take a vacation.

With regard to running "for the tall grass in the wake of this strange new world we inhabit here," there isn't any "tall grass" tall enough to protect us from the increasingly prevailing notion that those who have more ought to have less so that those who have less will have more:
"From each according to his ability; to each according to his need."

Too many presume transfering (i.e., stealing) wealth from those who have more and giving it to those who have less, will increase the wealth of those who have less, when what it actually does is reduce the wealth of all.

Likewise too many people believe stopping increasing CO2 emissions will stop the earth warming WHEN IT IS NOT WARMING AND IS IN FACT COOLING. ???

Both stupidities grow as a consequence of increasing numbers of people refusing or being unable to think for themselves.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 11:51 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

There are so many prominent scientists these days that 400 seems a small sample from a statistical point of view to take any particular notice of.

Isn't everybody who majored in an ology a scientist?


But 400 is a fairly good sampling of scientists who have actually done their homework re climate science. The IPPC cites many '....ologists' on their list of scientists supporting the AGW mantra, but they can only come up with a relatively few scientists who have actually done similar homework as that professed by those 400. Most of the IPPC scientists merely read or skimmed the statistical data without doing any verification of their own. The fact that they had no basis with which to dispute the data was treated by the IPPC as support for the AGW synopsis.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 12:04 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
The IPPC cites many '....ologists' on their list of scientists supporting the AGW mantra, but they can only come up with a relatively few scientists who have actually done similar homework as that professed by those 400.


Well, we had this topic a couple of times - without any real response to back this claim.

Foxfyre wrote:
Most of the IPPC scientists merely read or skimmed the statistical data without doing any verification of their own.


It would be very interesting from you KNOW that. And how you could calculate that it were "most".
 

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