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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2008 11:38 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Nonsense. In my most recent previous profession I utilized lawyers all the time, asked them to write opinions for me, asked them to intercede in court for me, all the while knowing that they worked counter to my particular company/industry for other clients. They were in no way in conflict of interest and would only have been in conflict of interest had they represented a client involved in a direct conflict or transaction with me.

If they represented/worked for particular companies counter to yours, then yes that was a conflict of interest. I don't know where you built your ethical model, but it's not that sound. The point is not how honest your lawyer friends was, it is simply the conflict of interest. You should be glad that no repercussion came of said opinions. Poor example.
Foxfyre wrote:

Likewise I have been hired by companies to perform work and then found myself engaged in adversarial situations with those same companies.

The difference between this and your previous example is that you were no longer employed by the company. Unless you typoed in the first example, you state that the lawyers work (present tense) for companies with interests in counter to your own.

I can work for Boeing then change jobs and Work for Lockheed Martin. Do you not see the difference?
Foxfyre wrote:

Is the plumber hired to fix the toilet at the local Exxon region office to be forever blacklisted by environmentalists as a supporter of big oil? Shall the doctor refuse to treat the wounded bank robber--does he signal that he favors bank robbery if he does? If I should write an essay complimenting a particular project funded by ConocoPhillips, must I be forever branded as their advocate?

Irrelavant. Irrelavant. Are you being paid by conoco-phillips to write the essay? If so, you will not be recieved as a objective source. If you are looking to write an essay on CP then the one source of funding you should vaoid is from CP.
Foxfyre wrote:

Unless you can show that Dr. Seitz demonstrated advocacy for something in a way that would compromise his credibility, you are unfairly smearing him as discredited in any of his opinions on global warming. Accepting funding or a grant to conduct a particular study or project for a legal entity is not a mortal sin for anybody.


Nobody is talking about "sin." We are talking about credibility. If Dr. Seitz wants to parade his conclusions as being ultimately scientific then he needs to be able to provide that his motives are purely objective.

He even states how AGW is more political than scientific. I find this incredibly ironic concidering the types of political statements he makes.

I don't have to illustrate anything. He paints his own picture.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 12:21 am
Quote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Nonsense. In my most recent previous profession I utilized lawyers all the time, asked them to write opinions for me, asked them to intercede in court for me, all the while knowing that they worked counter to my particular company/industry for other clients. They were in no way in conflict of interest and would only have been in conflict of interest had they represented a client involved in a direct conflict or transaction with me.

If they represented/worked for particular companies counter to yours, then yes that was a conflict of interest. I don't know where you built your ethical model, but it's not that sound. The point is not how honest your lawyer friends was, it is simply the conflict of interest. You should be glad that no repercussion came of said opinions. Poor example.
Foxfyre wrote:


We aren't talking lawyers on retainer. We are talking lawyers hired for a particular case for a particular issue. Also in my business I also hired numerous experts to give me an opinion on existing conditions and/or the value of things. These same experts also worked for clients that were competitors of my company. There was absolutely nothing unethical about any of it because we were hiring expertise, not advocacy.

That is why presuming that any scientist is working as advocate for rather than expert for any company is an unfounded presumption unless you have something more substantive than who paid the bill.

Quote:
Quote:
Likewise I have been hired by companies to perform work and then found myself engaged in adversarial situations with those same companies.

The difference between this and your previous example is that you were no longer employed by the company. Unless you typoed in the first example, you state that the lawyers work (present tense) for companies with interests in counter to your own.


To assume that a scientist is in the employ of or even indebted to somebody who hired them to conduct research or do a study can be exactly the same situation as I found myself. When I hire a lawyer to provide me an expert opinion, I am not paying him to provide me the answer I want to hear. I am paying him to provide me with the right answer. I am guessing that most scientists are hired for the exact same reason.

Quote:
I can work for Boeing then change jobs and Work for Lockheed Martin. Do you not see the difference?


I don't see the relevance, unless those at Lockheed assumed that your loyalties were with Boeing because you received money from them too.

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:

Is the plumber hired to fix the toilet at the local Exxon region office to be forever blacklisted by environmentalists as a supporter of big oil? Shall the doctor refuse to treat the wounded bank robber--does he signal that he favors bank robbery if he does? If I should write an essay complimenting a particular project funded by ConocoPhillips, must I be forever branded as their advocate?

Irrelavant. Irrelavant. Are you being paid by conoco-phillips to write the essay? If so, you will not be recieved as a objective source. If you are looking to write an essay on CP then the one source of funding you should vaoid is from CP.


And this is pure bull. I have done a LOT of free lance technical writing for various entities, receiving nice checks for my expertise, with absolutely no emotional attachment to or interest in those same entities. If experts could not work for a client without being tainted forever by such client, nobody would be able to work for anybody. The examples are entirely relevant to show that just because a client pays you for work does not presume that you are acting as advocate for the client. Likewise you have not shown that Dr. Seitz was acting as advocate for any oil company. He wasn't on the oil company payroll. He was hired for his expertise.

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:

Unless you can show that Dr. Seitz demonstrated advocacy for something in a way that would compromise his credibility, you are unfairly smearing him as discredited in any of his opinions on global warming. Accepting funding or a grant to conduct a particular study or project for a legal entity is not a mortal sin for anybody.


Nobody is talking about "sin." We are talking about credibility. If Dr. Seitz wants to parade his conclusions as being ultimately scientific then he needs to be able to provide that his motives are purely objective.

He even states how AGW is more political than scientific. I find this incredibly ironic concidering the types of political statements he makes.

I don't have to illustrate anything. He paints his own picture.

T
K
O
[/QUOTE]

Why does he have to prove his motives in order to be credible. Is it possible that his motives are to provide scientific evidence that AGW is being misrepresented or whatever his position is? How would doing a study for an oil company compromise that in any way? Should we require you to prove your motives in condemning him? When you contribute to a candidate for office, shall it be assumed that you are doing that so the candidate will do your bidding? Or is it because you appreciate what the candidate stands for? Shall that candidate be forever held suspect for your opinion on anything because s/he accepted your contribution?

Is it possible that oil companies hire expertise instead of advocacy? And is it possible for an oil company to contribute to a tax sheltered foundation because they appreciate the work the scientist is already doing? Do you know what the circumstances are for any funding received by Dr. Seitz?

These are the things the AGW religionists will not accept or acknowledge.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 12:32 am
Fox - The only reply I have for you is that I just don't think you get it.

I don't condemn the Dr. Seitz as much as I laugh at those who choose to champion his conclusions.

I can work for Boeing then work for Lockheed Martin, but I can't work for them both.

If Dr. Seitz prides himself on his objectivity, he should have not made bedfellows with corporate interests.

Dr. Seitz says in the interview that other scientists have approached him to say that they would side with him but were afraid. He should understand how useless this kind of statement is without substantiation. A statement like this is only made because it is designed to plant a seed of doubt in the listener/reader's mind. It's not scientific, and it's unimpressive.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 12:34 am
Fox - The only reply I have for you is that I just don't think you get it.

I don't condemn the Dr. Seitz as much as I laugh at those who choose to champion his conclusions.

I can work for Boeing then work for Lockheed Martin, but I can't work for them both.

If Dr. Seitz prides himself on his objectivity, he should have not made bedfellows with corporate interests.

Dr. Seitz says in the interview that other scientists have approached him to say that they would side with him but were afraid. He should understand how useless this kind of statement is without substantiation. A statement like this is only made because it is designed to plant a seed of doubt in the listener/reader's mind. It's not scientific, and it's unimpressive.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 12:34 am
Fox - The only reply I have for you is that I just don't think you get it.

I don't condemn the Dr. Seitz as much as I laugh at those who choose to champion his conclusions.

I can work for Boeing then work for Lockheed Martin, but I can't work for them both.

If Dr. Seitz prides himself on his objectivity, he should have not made bedfellows with corporate interests.

Dr. Seitz says in the interview that other scientists have approached him to say that they would side with him but were afraid. He should understand how useless this kind of statement is without substantiation. A statement like this is only made because it is designed to plant a seed of doubt in the listener/reader's mind. It's not scientific, and it's unimpressive.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 12:35 am
Fox - The only reply I have for you is that I just don't think you get it.

I don't condemn the Dr. Seitz as much as I laugh at those who choose to champion his conclusions.

I can work for Boeing then work for Lockheed Martin, but I can't work for them both.

If Dr. Seitz prides himself on his objectivity, he should have not made bedfellows with corporate interests.

Dr. Seitz says in the interview that other scientists have approached him to say that they would side with him but were afraid. He should understand how useless this kind of statement is without substantiation. A statement like this is only made because it is designed to plant a seed of doubt in the listener/reader's mind. It's not scientific, and it's unimpressive.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 12:38 am
Yeah, kind of like your accusations against Dr. Seitz based on nothing more substantive than he has received payment or funding from an oil company.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 12:41 am
oops. Sorry about the super duplicate posts.

Anyways. I reread all of my posts on the topic, and the following is a closest to an accusation I have made. I stand by this statement.

Diest TKO wrote:
The point is that he doesn't need to be accused of anything. It's simply a conflict of interest, and speaks to the credibility of his findings. As he stated with the tobacco research...

Quote:
Did this institution do any direct studies linking tobacco and cancer?

I took it for granted. People are educated enough that they knew it was a hazard.


This kind of science reeks of political interest.

I was also tickled about how he insisted that the idea of addressing AGW would be an economic disaster. That's what I call an "ALARMIST."

LOL

T
K
O


If you want to argue that this responce is actually a scientific responce and not a well guised political soundbyte, be my guest.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 02:10 am
Geez, ican and Fox are really reaching now. Fred Seitz, Willie Soon, same old one-note voices. No matter how often they're shown up, somebody quotes them again. Just goes to show you once again that nothing false ever dies on the internet.

Fred Seitz did his first version of the same petition in 1998, and the National Academy of Sciences, America's most prestigious organization of scientists essentially disowned him:

"The mailing is clearly designed to be deceptive by giving people the impression that the article, which is full of half-truths, is a reprint and has passed peer review," complained Raymond Pierrehumbert, an atmospheric chemist at the University of Chicago. NAS foreign secretary F. Sherwood Rowland, an atmospheric chemist, said researchers "are wondering if someone is trying to hoodwink them." NAS council member Ralph J. Cicerone, dean of the School of Physical Sciences at the University of California at Irvine, was particularly offended that Seitz described himself in the cover letter as a "past president" of the NAS. Although Seitz had indeed held that title in the 1960s, Cicerone hoped that scientists who received the petition mailing would not be misled into believing that he "still has a role in governing the organization."

The NAS issued an unusually blunt formal response to the petition drive. "The NAS Council would like to make it clear that this petition has nothing to do with the National Academy of Sciences and that the manuscript was not published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences or in any other peer-reviewed journal," it stated in a news release. "The petition does not reflect the conclusions of expert reports of the Academy." In fact, it pointed out, its own prior published study had shown that "even given the considerable uncertainties in our knowledge of the relevant phenomena, greenhouse warming poses a potential threat sufficient to merit prompt responses. Investment in mitigation measures acts as insurance protection against the great uncertainties and the possibility of dramatic surprises."

http://www.ecosyn.us/adti/Corrupt_Sallie_Baliunas.html

And Sallie Baliunas and her loyal henchman Willie Soon base most of their PR stuff on a paper they wrotethat relied heavily on proxy data in an attempt to prove that temperature change was due only to solar variation, which paper was promptly blasted by most of the scientists, whose proxy data they had used, as basically misusing and misinterpreting that data.That's the same Willie Soon who said (correctly) that climate simulation models say that the Arctic is the early warning site--that change will be apparent there first, and then went on to say (incorrectly) that there was absolutely no evidence of change there--two years before it became clear that Arctic sea ice has decreased by more than 20% in the last decade or two and the entire Arctic ice cap may soon melt, that the Greenland ice cap is melting at twice (now three times) the rate it has ever been known to melt and that at this rate by the end of the century ice that has been there for more than 6000 years will be gone, and that permafrost which has been there unmelted for the three thousand years or so that the Inuit and their ancestors have been in the Arctic, is now mmelting fast. THAT Willie Soon.

Living down to your usual standards, I see, ican.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 04:45 am
Yo crabs

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/antarctic-marine-life-threatened-by-crab-invasion-782989.html
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 09:21 am
Some of you will find relevance to elements of our discussion in the following...
Quote:
Delay Of Report Is Blamed On Politics
Document Suggests Public Health Risks Near Great Lakes

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/17/AR2008021702186.html?hpid=topnews
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 09:27 am
TKO, I appreciate that you are trying to be reasonable. However, your opinion of Dr. Seitz is nothing more than opinion that appears to be colored by your obvious bias against any AGW skeptics. Again, a person's primary sources of funding could make him/her suspect in objectivity. The fact that a person has received contributions or a grant from any particular entity, however, can as easily be a simple business transaction, as I illustrated, rather than proof of advocacy or bias.

Now for a clear example of bias, look at Username's most recent post. Using PR Watch, one of the most hate filled and distorted radical leftwing sites on the internet as 'proof' of the evils of Dr. Seitz plus any other well know AGW skeptic is really stretching. Could we even suggest that it disqualifies Username as being objective on this subject?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 09:32 am
blatham wrote:
Some of you will find relevance to elements of our discussion in the following...
Quote:
Delay Of Report Is Blamed On Politics
Document Suggests Public Health Risks Near Great Lakes

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/17/AR2008021702186.html?hpid=topnews


While this is interesting, it has relevance to the global warming thread how?
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 10:33 am
username posted :

Quote:
Fred Seitz did his first version of the same petition in 1998, and the National Academy of Sciences, America's most prestigious organization of scientists essentially disowned him:

"The mailing is clearly designed to be deceptive by giving people the impression that the article, which is full of half-truths, is a reprint and has passed peer review," complained Raymond Pierrehumbert, an atmospheric chemist at the University of Chicago. NAS foreign secretary F. Sherwood Rowland, an atmospheric chemist, said researchers "are wondering if someone is trying to hoodwink them." NAS council member Ralph J. Cicerone, dean of the School of Physical Sciences at the University of California at Irvine, was particularly offended that Seitz described himself in the cover letter as a "past president" of the NAS. Although Seitz had indeed held that title in the 1960s, Cicerone hoped that scientists who received the petition mailing would not be misled into believing that he "still has a role in governing the organization."

The NAS issued an unusually blunt formal response to the petition drive. "The NAS Council would like to make it clear that this petition has nothing to do with the National Academy of Sciences and that the manuscript was not published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences or in any other peer-reviewed journal," it stated in a news release.

"The petition does not reflect the conclusions of expert reports of the Academy." In fact, it pointed out, its own prior published study had shown that "even given the considerable uncertainties in our knowledge of the relevant phenomena, greenhouse warming poses a potential threat sufficient to merit prompt responses.

Investment in mitigation measures acts as insurance protection against the great uncertainties and the possibility of dramatic surprises."


if anyone can still give dr. seitz due credit for his statement , we'd have to be made to believe that the NAS is just a bunch of phony scientists that don't know what they are talking about .

dr. seitz's time has come and gone ; his "so called" SCIENTIFIC OPINIONS AND FINDINGS have become irrelevant .

it's really sad to see that a scientist who did great work at one time has chosen to become involved in this issue . he would have been far better off to be the ELDER SCIENTIST that young scientist could look up to .
this clinging to power happens to many people - but particularly to scientists and politicians - just sad , VERY SAD imo .

he still is able to generate some dust , but that's about all . he wouldn't be the first scientist who has outlived his usefulness - it happens to most of us at a certain point in our lives - nothing unusual about that .
hbg
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 12:49 pm
"Lives of great men all remind us
We can make our lives sublime"--- H w Longfellow
None of the Americans are great enough to make the life sublime..
I am human but not American
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 12:52 pm
Those unable to present rational arguments to rebut the findings of Fred Seitz, resort to attacks on the motives of Fred Seitz.

In the olden days we use to call that ad hominem.

Come on folks. You can do better than that. Can't you? What specifically is it about Fred Seitz's basis for his findings do you disagree?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 12:56 pm
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/research/2007/ann/global-jan-dec-error-bar-pg.gif

Do you disagree with this Question
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 01:00 pm
http://tamino.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/mlo.jpg


Do you disagree with this Question
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 01:03 pm
http://www.oism.org/pproject/Slides/Presentation/Slide1.png



Do you disagree with this Question

It was obtained from:
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2008 01:06 pm
hamburger wrote:
username posted :

Quote:
Fred Seitz did his first version of the same petition in 1998, and the National Academy of Sciences, America's most prestigious organization of scientists essentially disowned him:

"The mailing is clearly designed to be deceptive by giving people the impression that the article, which is full of half-truths, is a reprint and has passed peer review," complained Raymond Pierrehumbert, an atmospheric chemist at the University of Chicago. NAS foreign secretary F. Sherwood Rowland, an atmospheric chemist, said researchers "are wondering if someone is trying to hoodwink them." NAS council member Ralph J. Cicerone, dean of the School of Physical Sciences at the University of California at Irvine, was particularly offended that Seitz described himself in the cover letter as a "past president" of the NAS. Although Seitz had indeed held that title in the 1960s, Cicerone hoped that scientists who received the petition mailing would not be misled into believing that he "still has a role in governing the organization."

The NAS issued an unusually blunt formal response to the petition drive. "The NAS Council would like to make it clear that this petition has nothing to do with the National Academy of Sciences and that the manuscript was not published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences or in any other peer-reviewed journal," it stated in a news release.

"The petition does not reflect the conclusions of expert reports of the Academy." In fact, it pointed out, its own prior published study had shown that "even given the considerable uncertainties in our knowledge of the relevant phenomena, greenhouse warming poses a potential threat sufficient to merit prompt responses.

Investment in mitigation measures acts as insurance protection against the great uncertainties and the possibility of dramatic surprises."


if anyone can still give dr. seitz due credit for his statement , we'd have to be made to believe that the NAS is just a bunch of phony scientists that don't know what they are talking about .

dr. seitz's time has come and gone ; his "so called" SCIENTIFIC OPINIONS AND FINDINGS have become irrelevant .

it's really sad to see that a scientist who did great work at one time has chosen to become involved in this issue . he would have been far better off to be the ELDER SCIENTIST that young scientist could look up to .
this clinging to power happens to many people - but particularly to scientists and politicians - just sad , VERY SAD imo .

he still is able to generate some dust , but that's about all . he wouldn't be the first scientist who has outlived his usefulness - it happens to most of us at a certain point in our lives - nothing unusual about that .
hbg


The man is 97 years old. That he can still generate any dust at all is remarkable. He remains President Emeritus of Rockefeller University and his name remains on many prestigious science groups not least of which is this one: http://www.mrl.uiuc.edu/about.html

I was not, however, criticizing criticism of his point of view though in the end I suspect he will be exonerated in that point of view. I was criticizing the truly dishonest means of smearing a remarkable man with one of the most impressive resumes in science.
0 Replies
 
 

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