71
   

Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 03:16 pm
From 1909 to 1998 average global temperature increased less than 8%.

Solar activity increased 57% from 1900 to 2000. Solar sunspots have increased by a factor of 2.29 over the same time period.

"The level of solar activity during the past 70 years is exceptional - the last period of similar magnitude occurred over 8,000 years ago."
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 03:23 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
just been watching the republican candidates at Iowa.

John McCain said he would instigate a "manhattan" project to liberate the US from its dependency on foreign oil..."in 5 years" Laughing

An idiot called Alan Keyes (sp?) started preaching.

They were asked to raise their hands if they believed in anthropogenic global warming. The class refused.

I was not impressed.


Hi Steve. I'm glad to see your typically optimistic sunny self is still around too. Reliable consistency is always comforting. Smile
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 03:24 pm
Ican - statistically speaking polar icecaps are an aberration; they've only been present for a tiny fraction of the planet's existence:

Quote:
During the last 2 billion years the Earth's climate has alternated between a frigid "Ice House", like today's world, and a steaming "Hot House", like the world of the dinosaurs.
...



http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm

There's no proving anything to people either ignorant of arithmetic or contemptuous of the historical record - why bother?!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 03:34 pm
High Seas wrote:
Ican - statistically speaking polar icecaps are an aberration; they've only been present for a tiny fraction of the planet's existence:

Quote:
During the last 2 billion years the Earth's climate has alternated between a frigid "Ice House", like today's world, and a steaming "Hot House", like the world of the dinosaurs.
...



http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm

There's no proving anything to people either ignorant of arithmetic or contemptuous of the historical record - why bother?!


But they want to believe that we are in imminent crisis so badly HS. And they're wanting to force us to buy into it via all measures of regulations and prohibitions and higher taxes and seriously altered lifestyles, all of which are most likely to be decidedly detrimental to many or most of the world's poorest people. It is for that reason, I think the voices of reason have to be heard however loudly we must shout.

So what do we do with 180 degree difficulties like this?:

Quote:
Published December 11, 2007 12:04 AM
Antarctica's penguins threatened by global warming
By Sugita Katyal
NUSA DUA, Indonesia (Reuters) - Antarctica's penguin population has slumped because of global warming as melting ice has destroyed nesting sites and reduced their sources of food, a WWF report said on Tuesday.
http://www.enn.com/wildlife/article/26993


as compared with this provided by NASA and others:
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.area.south.jpg

So are we losing Anarctica too or aren't we?
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 03:42 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
just been watching the republican candidates at Iowa.

John McCain said he would instigate a "manhattan" project to liberate the US from its dependency on foreign oil..."in 5 years" Laughing

An idiot called Alan Keyes (sp?) started preaching.

They were asked to raise their hands if they believed in anthropogenic global warming. The class refused.

I was not impressed.


Possibly he misunderestimated his audiance. They might have thought "anthropogenic" was a dirty word.

Hey, Foxy. Welcome back.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 03:59 pm
roger wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
just been watching the republican candidates at Iowa.

John McCain said he would instigate a "manhattan" project to liberate the US from its dependency on foreign oil..."in 5 years" Laughing

An idiot called Alan Keyes (sp?) started preaching.

They were asked to raise their hands if they believed in anthropogenic global warming. The class refused.

I was not impressed.


Possibly he misunderestimated his audiance. They might have thought "anthropogenic" was a dirty word.

Hey, Foxy. Welcome back.


Hiya Roger. Great to see you too.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 04:03 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
High Seas wrote:
Ican - statistically speaking polar icecaps are an aberration; they've only been present for a tiny fraction of the planet's existence:

Quote:
During the last 2 billion years the Earth's climate has alternated between a frigid "Ice House", like today's world, and a steaming "Hot House", like the world of the dinosaurs.
...



http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm

There's no proving anything to people either ignorant of arithmetic or contemptuous of the historical record - why bother?!


But they want to believe that we are in imminent crisis so badly HS. And they're wanting to force us to buy into it via all measures of regulations and prohibitions and higher taxes and seriously altered lifestyles, all of which are most likely to be decidedly detrimental to many or most of the world's poorest people. It is for that reason, I think the voices of reason have to be heard however loudly we must shout.
...

Foxfyre, I would not have expressed my answer as well as you just expressed yours. Thank you.

By the way, Anthropologists allege humans, with glaciers coming and going, have been around pooping up the earth for less than a quarter of a million years. Somehow, despite all that, the earth as well as humans have nonetheless managed to survive. :wink:
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 04:34 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
blatham wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Ignoring that Blatham posted a Salon.org piece after excoriating me for my choice of sources, I did find this little tidbit in Dr. Pachuri's bio:

Quote:
In January 1999, Dr R K Pachauri was appointed as Director, Board of Directors of the Indian Oil Corporation Limited (a Fortune 500 company) for a period of 3 years.


Now how is it that somebody so intimately associated with the petroleum industry is so extolled as a person of principle and virtue while anybody on the other side, even reputable climatologists/educators who are indirectly associated with the petroleum industry, are to be disqualified as any kind of authority?


That surely can't be a serious question?

Scenario one: a scientist who has worked within or received funding from large tobacco corporations speaks and writes FAVORABLY about tobacco

Scenario two: a scientist who has worked within or received funding from large tobacco corporations speaks and writes UNFAVORABLY about tobacco.


And with no more to go on than that, and without review of any of the method or data by which either scientist arrived at his conclusions, the one violating the politically correct view shall be the one damned.


"Political correctness" is irrelevant to the point made.

1) A lawyer working for tobacco denies evidence of negative health effects of tobacco.

A2) A lawyer working for tobacco provides damning evidence of tobacco health consequences to the media.

Which of the two lacks credibility?


And you ought to drop the "politically correct" cliche. In your community of activist conservatives, denying GW and its consequences is the "politically correct" position. If you are involved in conservative discussion groups, simply begin, as an experiment, arguing that GW is real, that this conclusion is held by the overwhelming consensus of scientists working in the field, and that the consequences are likely to be significant. Please let us know what happens.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 04:46 pm
blatham wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
blatham wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Ignoring that Blatham posted a Salon.org piece after excoriating me for my choice of sources, I did find this little tidbit in Dr. Pachuri's bio:

Quote:
In January 1999, Dr R K Pachauri was appointed as Director, Board of Directors of the Indian Oil Corporation Limited (a Fortune 500 company) for a period of 3 years.


Now how is it that somebody so intimately associated with the petroleum industry is so extolled as a person of principle and virtue while anybody on the other side, even reputable climatologists/educators who are indirectly associated with the petroleum industry, are to be disqualified as any kind of authority?


That surely can't be a serious question?

Scenario one: a scientist who has worked within or received funding from large tobacco corporations speaks and writes FAVORABLY about tobacco

Scenario two: a scientist who has worked within or received funding from large tobacco corporations speaks and writes UNFAVORABLY about tobacco.


And with no more to go on than that, and without review of any of the method or data by which either scientist arrived at his conclusions, the one violating the politically correct view shall be the one damned.


"Political correctness" is irrelevant to the point made.

1) A lawyer working for tobacco denies evidence of negative health effects of tobacco.

A2) A lawyer working for tobacco provides damning evidence of tobacco health consequences to the media.

Which of the two lacks credibility?


And you ought to drop the "politically correct" cliche. In your community of activist conservatives, denying GW and its consequences is the "politically correct" position. If you are involved in conservative discussion groups, simply begin, as an experiment, arguing that GW is real, that this conclusion is held by the overwhelming consensus of scientists working in the field, and that the consequences are likely to be significant. Please let us know what happens.


I'll quit using the cliche when you quit judging people by whether they agree with your point of view.

In my view, the lawyer (or anybody else) who is telling it like it is has the most credibility, and that will be determined by the facts, not the advocacy. It is most convenient for you to change 'scientist' to 'lawyer' though which introduces a whole new dynamic into the equation don't you think? Straw man? Red herring? All sorts of things come to mind.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 05:22 pm
foxfire
Quote:
I'll quit using the cliche when you quit judging people by whether they agree with your point of view.

In my view, the lawyer (or anybody else) who is telling it like it is has the most credibility, and that will be determined by the facts, not the advocacy. It is most convenient for you to change 'scientist' to 'lawyer' though which introduces a whole new dynamic into the equation don't you think? Straw man? Red herring? All sorts of things come to mind.


The point, again and obviously, is that greater credibility lies with someone who speaks against his personal interests rather than in alignment with his personal interests. It's why we acknowledge the value of a whistleblower's testimony and why we protect them against retribution. It's also why lawyers, in the service of a client, are not to be trusted as regards truth. It's also why public relations firms in the employ of corporations are not to be trusted as regards truth. It's a very simple point.

As regards the science involved, perhaps four or five people on this board have the levels of scientific expertise to address these questions at the level of science. Neither you nor I are among that few. And each of those few with such expertise have it in isolated areas.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 05:33 pm
blatham wrote:

...
In your community of activist conservatives, denying GW and its consequences is the "politically correct" position. If you are involved in conservative discussion groups, simply begin, as an experiment, arguing that GW is real, that this conclusion is held by the overwhelming consensus of scientists working in the field, and that the consequences are likely to be significant. Please let us know what happens.

It once was "the overwhelming consensus of scientists working in the field" that the earth was the center of the universe. The current "overwhelming consensus of scientists working in the field" now think they do not know what or where is the center of the universe.

By the way, do you know how to access that which correctly lists the alleged pro and alleged con human-caused-GW scientists?" Until you do, I'll base my opinion on these facts:

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3gl.txt
(1) From 1909 to 1998 average global temperature increased less than 8%.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Solar_Activity_Proxies.png
(2) Solar activity increased 57% from 1900 to 2000.
(3) Solar sunspots have increased by a factor of 2.29 over the same time period.
(4) "The level of solar activity during the past 70 years is exceptional - the last period of similar magnitude occurred over 8,000 years ago."
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 05:44 pm
The question, in it's broader sense, from my perceptive, is not whether global warming is a reality using accepted scientific methodologies.

Why you ask?

Because I can provide numerous arguments as to Man's imminent risks from a number of accepted scientific methodologies to the exclusion of global warming.

Thus the question of global warming becomes one in which: will the major world powers rally around this particular symbol of rational change?

By "rational change" I would argue dramatic reduction in population, thereby alleviating the severe environmental pressures that are apt to have dangerous consequences.

I am, sadly, rather dubious that high-tech solutions or conservation can mediate the problems given such massive demands by earth's burgeoning human population.

This despite the fact that I am often more optimistic than many as to the potential for science / technology to moderate man's foolishness.

History suggests such population reductions have only been accomplished in a gruesome fashion.

The sex drive and materialism are the domineering forces in our modern society; however future-think in terms of self-preservation is not highly regarded.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 06:12 pm
blatham wrote:

...
The point, again and obviously, is that greater credibility lies with someone who speaks against his personal interests rather than in alignment with his personal interests.
...

Who "speaks against his personal interests rather than in alignment with his personal interests"? How do you know?

We are faced with the "go along to get along" crowds and the "do not want to starve" crowds.
0 Replies
 
anton bonnier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 06:22 pm
Chumly said...
"By "rational change" I would argue dramatic reduction in population, thereby alleviating the severe environmental pressures that are apt to have dangerous consequences."

That day will have to come, the population rate of increase will continue to overtaking the means of sustainability... humans became locusts eons ago
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 06:34 pm
anton bonnier wrote:
Chumly said...
"By "rational change" I would argue dramatic reduction in population, thereby alleviating the severe environmental pressures that are apt to have dangerous consequences."

That day will have to come, the population rate of increase will continue to overtaking the means of sustainability... humans became locusts eons ago


I read not all that long ago that the entire population of the world would fit into the State of Texas with a population density no higher than that of San Francisco. Even allowing for increased population since that time, it should be safe to assume that the population would fit within the combined states of Texas and New Mexico and still have a livable population density.

If you check out that area on your desk globe, you will see that there is an awfully lot of 'world' left over. And the USA alone, with resources properly managed and efficiently distributed, can probably still feed all of those people.

You only have to drive from Socorro NM to Reserve NM, or from Springer to Clayton or from Clines Corners to Roswell to get an impression of how immense are the open spaces still left.

I think the problem is not population but rather inefficient and/or ineffective management of resources or the greed and ambition of corrupt people who have seized power for themselves. Some of the poorest people on the planet live in places with some of the world's most plentiful natural resources. The population isn't the problem but rather those who would exploit and oppress those people and neither permit nor encourage them to join the rest of the prosperous world.

And pertinent to the whole AGW discussion, some of the policies being advocated by the AGW would likely condemn those poorest of the poor to more generations of abject poverty by denying them the same means to pull themselves out of poverty that the rest of us have utilized.

It is no coincidence that the weathiest people on the planet are also those with the luxury and ability to protect and preserve our planet and who demand clean water, clean air, adequate energy, etc. When everybody has that luxury, I think we will also have the technology and ability to keep it intact.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 06:36 pm
SHOW YOUR BELLY BUTTON !
----------------------------------
those of us concerned about global warming are not "all doom and gloom" !

from THE ECONOMIST : THE WORLD IN 2008 , page 86

Quote:
FEWER COATS
"miuccia prada has said it loud and clear : "we keep churning out warm coats , but people don't need them any longer . "
eating al fresco , more conservation , outdoor sports , out-of-season holidays - climate change has already affected daily life in europe .
now it will change the way we dress . get ready .
OFFICE BELLY BUTTONS ARE HERE TO STAY !


are us guys also allowed to show their belly buttons , i wonder ?
after all we'll also want to keep cool .
hbg
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 06:51 pm
I apologise for skipping a few pages but I'm a very busy man.

They are in panic mode that the billions will get to the lifestyle they lead before they can manufacture enough oxygen masks, breathing apparatus, collateral service systems and underwater breeding hutches kitted out in the manner to which we have all become accustomed.

7 or 8 billion living like Al Gore and you would need night vision specs to go to the library.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 06:56 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I read not all that long ago that the entire population of the world would fit into the State of Texas with a population density no higher than that of San Francisco.
So what, give me a good reason why we need over 6.6 billion.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 07:29 pm
Chumly wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I read not all that long ago that the entire population of the world would fit into the State of Texas with a population density no higher than that of San Francisco.
So what, give me a good reason why we need over 6.6 billion.


There is no reason that we need over 6.6 billion, but that's what we have and there's no reason to believe the world will just suddenly stop having sex or that life expectancy will decrease. I don't think many of us will choose infanticide or advocate lining up everybody over 60 and shooting them. Therefore much better to focus on improving quality of life rather than fret about preventing it.
0 Replies
 
anton bonnier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 07:34 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I read not all that long ago that the entire population of the world would fit into the State of Texas with a population density no higher than that of San Francisco.

I can understand what you are saying and it's most likely is quite true.. what you say. But, I would much prefer, in the future, to see science.. able to speed up the evolution of humanity, until we have a human race that is minimal in quantity and the highest of quality, well able to fit into the world with the minimal intrusion and enable all of earth to evolve without fear of extinction.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.1 seconds on 10/02/2024 at 10:31:50