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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 12:59 pm
george, who may or may not march in those San Francisco parades, asked
Quote:
Do you believe that "corporations" are the only organizations that deal in misinformation, propaganda, selective reporting of facts and other devices to create a prefabricated impression or belief?

No. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty certain that you've just cut and pasted my description of the Bush political office's communications process.

Quote:
My strong impression is that most advocacy groups, ranging from Amnesty International, to Green Peace, The Sierra Club, Planned Parenthood, the National Rifle Association, the national Education Association, etc. etc, etc. all do the same on a full time basis. What makes this any worse if it is done by a corporation?


I really wish you'd quit doing this, george.

The Iranian military and the Boy Scouts of America are both organizations with goals and recruitment policies. Further differentiation is unnecessary, and where attempted, a good indication of bias or prejudice on the part of the person so attempting.

Pol Pot, Ronald Reagan and Abe Lincoln were all politicians. Further discernment is invaluable.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 01:02 pm
Of course it is relevant.

The point was that we all, or most anyway, profit from the activities of large corporations. We all have a share as Minderbinder pointed out. And the ones with a lot of shares can only sleep in one bed at once.

If I "jump all over the place" it is because I expect my readers to be able to follow.

You explain what the Greens would do from here and we'll go from there.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 01:09 pm
blatham wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
My strong impression is that most advocacy groups, ranging from Amnesty International, to Green Peace, The Sierra Club, Planned Parenthood, the National Rifle Association, the national Education Association, etc. etc, etc. all do the same on a full time basis. What makes this any worse if it is done by a corporation?


I really wish you'd quit doing this, george.

The Iranian military and the Boy Scouts of America are both organizations with goals and recruitment policies. Further differentiation is unnecessary, and where attempted, a good indication of bias or prejudice on the part of the person so attempting.

Pol Pot, Ronald Reagan and Abe Lincoln were all politicians. Further discernment is invaluable.


You show little inclination to exercise that discernment among "corporations" , repeatedly damning them all. Does that suggest a bias on your part?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 01:15 pm
spendius wrote:
Of course it is relevant.

The point was that we all, or most anyway, profit from the activities of large corporations. We all have a share as Minderbinder pointed out. And the ones with a lot of shares can only sleep in one bed at once.

If I "jump all over the place" it is because I expect my readers to be able to follow.

You explain what the Greens would do from here and we'll go from there.


The ideal scenario would be to hold those who manufacture goods and products responsible for every bit of the waste produced as a result of the manufacturing of said goods and products. It would not increase the costs of goods at all; it would merely keep companies from shunting those costs off on the populace as a whole.

Simple solutions can help - for example, mandating that factories take in water downriver from where they release it, exactly the opposite as we see today. You would see a dramatic decrease in the quantity of emissions into our water table almost immediately.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 01:21 pm
Quote:
You show little inclination to exercise that discernment among "corporations" , repeatedly damning them all.


But I haven't done that george. I have made the claim that there is a long and well documented history of public relations firms being taken on by large corporate interests where operations/profits were perceived to be at risk and that the PR or propaganda techniques which have proved to be effective have been repeated in later instances.

The most relevant aspect to this discussion relates to huge investments from big oil companies (particularly) designed specifically to throw doubt upon the scientific findings which might threaten operations/profits. It is the same strategy used by the tobacco companies and others before that. This is all just factual stuff. It isn't an indictment of all corporations or even any corporation over its history and range of operations.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 01:40 pm
spendius wrote:
...But let us suppose, a brief moment is all we might dare to, that everybody took them at their word and lived like I do for other reasons, not connected to saving the earth. (Bone idleness mainly.) ...
first of all I want it on record that I am not starting the Spendius fan club. He is normally rude cantankerous quirky and generally a pain in the ass or arse as he would say. But beneath all that **** occasionally we glimpse the flash from a diamond geeza.

Forever trapped I fear.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 01:57 pm
Cyclo wrote-

Quote:
The ideal scenario would be to hold those who manufacture goods and products responsible for every bit of the waste produced as a result of the manufacturing of said goods and products. It would not increase the costs of goods at all; it would merely keep companies from shunting those costs off on the populace as a whole.


I am at a loss what to make of that. At the Aberfan coal-mine the company kept the waste on its own premises for the very purpose of not increasing the price of its coal. As did all the other mining operations including those in South Africa, Bolivia etc.

Quote:
Simple solutions can help - for example, mandating that factories take in water downriver from where they release it, exactly the opposite as we see today. You would see a dramatic decrease in the quantity of emissions into our water table almost immediately.


That's a bit like filling the kettle out of the toilet pan.

After a year or two of cycles wouldn't the sludge between the two points dam up the river and clog up all the machines. Of course if they only put clean water in their outflow the thing would be pointless anyway. But then they would have to filter the sludge out and either store it on the premises or pay to have it dropped off somewhere else preferably out of sight.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 02:05 pm
Bernie wrote-

Quote:
The most relevant aspect to this discussion relates to huge investments from big oil companies (particularly) designed specifically to throw doubt upon the scientific findings which might threaten operations/profits.


Yes but don't you see that you are not defining "profits". You are not "following the money". "Profit" seems to be there simply what others (fat cats) get and excludes what you get. You'll see what I mean if you imagine there are no oil companies.

PS- I see I have been damned with faint praise again.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 02:12 pm
As a simple example Bernie-- imagine the Wall St execs and all the staffs getting bonuses for "improved performance".

Out they go onto the street of Manhattan to buy costume jewlery to make their ladies more attractive although why anyone would seek to make his lady more attractive passes my comprehension.

It used to be a motto in Merrie England to "keep 'em well shagged and poorly shod". But then American movies happened.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 02:43 pm
Quote:
if you imagine there are no oil companies.

False dilemma, old boy.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 02:47 pm
spendius wrote:
Cyclo wrote-

Quote:
The ideal scenario would be to hold those who manufacture goods and products responsible for every bit of the waste produced as a result of the manufacturing of said goods and products. It would not increase the costs of goods at all; it would merely keep companies from shunting those costs off on the populace as a whole.


I am at a loss what to make of that. At the Aberfan coal-mine the company kept the waste on its own premises for the very purpose of not increasing the price of its coal. As did all the other mining operations including those in South Africa, Bolivia etc.

Quote:
Simple solutions can help - for example, mandating that factories take in water downriver from where they release it, exactly the opposite as we see today. You would see a dramatic decrease in the quantity of emissions into our water table almost immediately.


That's a bit like filling the kettle out of the toilet pan.

After a year or two of cycles wouldn't the sludge between the two points dam up the river and clog up all the machines. Of course if they only put clean water in their outflow the thing would be pointless anyway. But then they would have to filter the sludge out and either store it on the premises or pay to have it dropped off somewhere else preferably out of sight.


Yes, but you see - you're ignoring the fact that the sludge is produced, and is a problem, either way.

The companies who produce the sludge in the course of making their products and services most certainly should be responsible for finding a way to clean it up, drop it off, or put it 'out of sight.' Right now they pass that responsibility on to society, and this should end. It's the only moral way to view this issue.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 03:29 pm
Cyclo wrote-

Quote:
Yes, but you see - you're ignoring the fact that the sludge is produced, and is a problem, either way.


Yes but sending it downstream spreads it out thinly and everybody gets some which is fair enough for wanting the products of this symbolic factory at a price that doesn't have the cost of dealing with the sludge factored in.

And you are ignoring the "wants". No wants--no factory--no sludge. When working with the hands is low status, apart from such things as the craft furniture making of antique computer and television tables and home made breads and jams, as I believe it is in the US, and here, machines are brought in and the sludge starts building up.

It's having machines so you can all have posh desk jobs passing papers around, having meetings and flirting behind the filing cabinets that causes the sludge. On behalf of consumers of pointless items everywhere you are scapegoating the factory.

You must be very popular. I'm a pain in the arse.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 03:38 pm
spendius wrote:
Cyclo wrote-

Quote:
Yes, but you see - you're ignoring the fact that the sludge is produced, and is a problem, either way.


Yes but sending it downstream spreads it out thinly and everybody gets some which is fair enough for wanting the products of this symbolic factory at a price that doesn't have the cost of dealing with the sludge factored in.

And you are ignoring the "wants". No wants--no factory--no sludge. When working with the hands is low status, apart from such things as the craft furniture making of antique computer and television tables and home made breads and jams, as I believe it is in the US, and here, machines are brought in and the sludge starts building up.

It's having machines so you can all have posh desk jobs passing papers around, having meetings and flirting behind the filing cabinets that causes the sludge. On behalf of consumers of pointless items everywhere you are scapegoating the factory.

You must be very popular. I'm a pain in the arse.


I don't give a damn about the 'wants.' That's a completely immaterial component of the equation, b/c the 'wants' are limited to those who have the money or desire to buy the items in question; the pollution is shared by everyone. Therefore in any objective view, the pollution takes primacy over the desires of the few.

Taking care of the pollution should be a cost of doing business. Businesses predate our understanding of the need to take care of pollution; therefore we have let manufacturers get away with murder for a long time, b/c it's more convenient not to think about the problems. But not more responsible.

There is no moral position that allows companies to produce waste and dump it into everyone's environment. It will make products more expensive, to which I respond, tough titty. As you say, we all have too many 'pointless items' as it is; I don't think we have to sacrifice our future in order to perpetuate this state of being.

I think your last line is entirely accurate. Just not for the reasons you think.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 05:36 pm
Be careful Cyclo-

Don't let it come into focus too fast.

The people who generate the wants are the very same ones who provide you with the money to satisfy them.

It is a brilliant metaphor though-- the factory that has been mandated to see that the water it pumps out is cleaner than the water it pumps in, assuming that the regulators haven't got round to those low-level polluters upstream, and stopping the fishes shitting, would obviously diversify into bottled water production because they would be the only company which had official approval of the quality of their water.

Who in their right mind would want to manufacture tri-chorodioxyethylrabidoxide powder for making long-life batteries last longer when they could sell government approved, tested, approved and peer-reviewed river water at $2 a go with the bottles Made In China.

You would need to be stark staring mad to even consider such a ridiculous idea.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 05:42 pm
I'm assuming Cyclo that you have got in cheap on a few thousand acres above 10,000ft.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 06:23 pm
spendius wrote:
Be careful Cyclo-

Don't let it come into focus too fast.

The people who generate the wants are the very same ones who provide you with the money to satisfy them.

It is a brilliant metaphor though-- the factory that has been mandated to see that the water it pumps out is cleaner than the water it pumps in, assuming that the regulators haven't got round to those low-level polluters upstream, and stopping the fishes shitting, would obviously diversify into bottled water production because they would be the only company which had official approval of the quality of their water.

Who in their right mind would want to manufacture tri-chorodioxyethylrabidoxide powder for making long-life batteries last longer when they could sell government approved, tested, approved and peer-reviewed river water at $2 a go with the bottles Made In China.

You would need to be stark staring mad to even consider such a ridiculous idea.


Nope. We're just looking at the true cost of items, and not ignoring certain costs as you would have us do.

Your second line is incorrect. Those who generate goods do so in order to make a profit; the makers of Clorox bleach, for example, make a fine quality product that people enjoy. However, I don't use that product. I do have to live with the pollution that they produce making it, however; instead of charging me to clean it up, the producers (and by extension) consumers of said product should pay. They after all are the ones who want the product in the first place.

You may note that I never suggested that factories have to pump out cleaner water then they take in; only that they are forced to take in the same waste that they pump out. I'm sure you'll agree with me that it's an eminently fair solution.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 06:44 pm
Fair to whom?

I don't use bleach myself actually. Nor any other of the fatuous products these silly feewkers make. I'm Simple Simon as well as a pain in the arse.

I am well aware that my "second line" is a bit difficult to assimilate but that is no reason to assert that it is "incorrect".

I assumed that if the water quality at the outlet had to be approved by "you don't sue me" type government regulators it would be purer than any river below 10,000 ft above sea-level.

Are you calling into question the integrity of government inspectors?

The reason my sort of economics is a bit strange is, as Bernie knows, that the lecturers at the LSE are all on fat salaries and spend the night shift squandering them on pointless products in the service of a force which I will leave to your imagination.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 06:49 pm
spendius wrote:
Fair to whom?

I don't use bleach myself actually. Nor any other of the fatuous products these silly feewkers make. I'm Simple Simon as well as a pain in the arse.

I am well aware that my "second line" is a bit difficult to assimilate but that is no reason to assert that it is "incorrect".

I assumed that if the water quality at the outlet had to be approved by "you don't sue me" type government regulators it would be purer than any river below 10,000 ft above sea-level.

Are you calling into question the integrity of government inspectors?

The reason my sort of economics is a bit strange is, as Bernie knows, that the lecturers at the LSE are all on fat salaries and spend the night shift squandering them on pointless products in the service of a force which I will leave to your imagination.


I didn't assert that your second line was incorrect; I used logical argument to show that it was incorrect.

What more, I must say that you have a devil of a time staying on topic. I think that you honestly and purposefully make your posts only tangentially related to the topic in order to avoid ever having to actually defend your position.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Oct, 2007 06:07 am
We can't have that can we?

One might reasonably compare the Green movement to the primitive Christians of the first centuries of our era.

The latter sought to save their souls by an austere faith and the former to save the planet in a similar manner.

The early Christians disdained, or affected to disdain every earthly delight. They saw the first sensation of pleasure as marking the point at which abuse began and where perfection is threatened. They resisted the gross temptations of the flesh in the service of a mightily selfish, not to say overweeningly arrogant, spiritual perfection.

If I allow Edward Gibbon to continue the tale, a writer anyone will benefit from being exposed to, the reader might replace certain words with others to his profit. Christian with Green for example.

Quote:
The unfeeling candidate for heaven was instructed, not only to resist the grosser allurements of taste and smell, but even to shut his ears against the profane harmony of sounds, and to view with indifference the most finished productions of human art. Gay apparel, magnificent houses, and elegant furniture, were supposed to unite the double guilt of pride and of sensuality: a simple and mortified appearance was more suitable to the Christian who was certain of his sins and doubtful of his salvation. In their censures of luxury the fathers (Al Gore say) are extremely minute and circumstantial; and among the various articles which excite their pious indignation we may enumerate false hair, garments of any colour except white, instruments of music, vases of gold or silver, downy pilloes (as Jacob reposed his head in a stone), white bread, foreign wines, public salutations, the use of warm baths, and the practice of shaving the beard, which, according to the expression of Tertullian, is a lie against our own faces, and an impious attempt to improve the works of the Creator. When Christianity was introduced among the rich and the polite, the observation of these singular laws was left, as it would be at present, to the few who were ambitious of superior sanctity. But it is always easy, as well as agreeable, for the inferior ranks of mankind to claim a merit from the contempt of that pomp and pleasure which fortune has placed beyond their reach. The virtue of the primitive Christians, like that of the first Romans, was very frequently guarded by poverty and ignorance.


The reader will readily see, I trust, that he has to examine his own conscience to see if he is really a Green or just another of those hypocritical twerps who scapegoat the factory, the fat cats and corporations in order to continue polluting to the maximum his income allows and that any any meagerness with regard to that income is not a proper substitute for the piety necessary to achieve the objective he affects to be pursuing.

In other words, the Greens of our world are a bunch of phoney bastards unless their carbon footprint is as light and fleeting as that of a Sudanese water carrier and they can safely be relied upon to use their supposed piety in this regard in the service of impressing it as deeply as it is in their power to do and to gear it up substantially by borrowing money and producing offspring in their own image. It is people who pollute and not factories and corporations and fat cats are too few to make much difference.

If the Greens do have a runaway success story, as the primitive Christians did, they can equally be relied upon to institute the ceremonials and trappings of opulence, affectations and dogmatic word-weavings and to impose them upon those they have risen above if not upon themselves which the intransigence of the human heart obviously precludes them from doing especially when it is taken as read that women will have equal status and representation in thier hierarchy and possibly may dominate it.

Perhaps Cyclo, if you raised the quality of your reading you may come to see that I am entirely on topic and I might even be criticised by the faint of heart of not being tangential enough.

Not only are Americans not Green- they are not Christians either.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Oct, 2007 06:21 am
Well, you may look at the Greens down disrespectfully, spendi.

But if they haven't been founded, environmentalism, "green conscience" etc wouldn't have become a topic with the other parties so quickly.

And polically, the Greens really became adult, too: Fischer wasn't a bad foreign minister at all, and some of theit ideas are at least worth beeing discussed about.

I do agree, however, that they really acted in their early days similar naïve as the early Christians.
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