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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Oct, 2007 08:05 pm
hamburger wrote:
dr. marburger stated :

Quote:
"The CO2 accumulates in the atmosphere and there's no end point, it just gets hotter and hotter, and so at some point it becomes unliveable" .


okie wrote :

Quote:
Boiled?
I always knew there were kooks, but seriously? Sorry hamburger, but using such terminology strikes me as silly when we are talking fractions of a degree, or about a degree.


okie :
you say that : "we are talking fractions of a degree, or about a degree." ,
but dr. marburger states : "so at some point it becomes unliveable" .

i would think that if we are only talking about a one degree maximum increase in temperature , the earth would likely NOT become unlivable .

i would be very pleased indeed if we only have to deal with a one degree maximum increase in temperature . i would think that people could adjust to that .

there are two things that puzzle me a bit :
1) why would dr. marburger speak of "unlivable" if that is simply not true ,
2) why is there no uproar to be heard from scientists in dr. marburger's field that would prove him to be wrong ?

What puzzles me is why would a so called educated man make such a stupid statement? And where is the proof that he is even faintly close to being correct, so why does anyone need to prove him wrong?

Quote:
i have to admit that i was surprised at dr. marburger's outspoken comments . i am assuming that he must have felt that nothing short of such strong words would get much attention ?

i would think that if dr. marburger's comments are simply not scientifically sound , a panel of distinguished scientists will prove him to be wrong in short order .
i am waiting to hear from such a panel .
hbg

If I claim the world will end tomorrow, does there need to be a panel to prove me wrong?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Oct, 2007 08:34 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Then, of course there is 'Chicken little' and her story about the sky falling in.

Clearly that too was a product of corporate scheming.


The Chicken Little story. How handy it is. How meaningless it is. Muslim radicalism...ohh the sky is falling.

It just simply is the case that tens of millions (possibly hundreds of millions) have been paid by the energy companies and others to public relations firms to do precisely what has worked in the past for other business interests under some threat of negative revelations and reduction in profits. And the most fundamental strategy in those cases has been to cast the findings and the science as inadequate or as false. That's factual and its well documented.

Imagine if you have a school-age youngster who comes home with an assignment to learn about the history of tobacco and public health, and she asks for your help and knowledge, are you going to omit what you know about the ubiquitous and long term strategies of the tobacco companies to hide the science they knew and while at the same time setting up front groups to snowjob the public and legislators?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Oct, 2007 09:48 pm
blatham wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Then, of course there is 'Chicken little' and her story about the sky falling in.

Clearly that too was a product of corporate scheming.


The Chicken Little story. How handy it is. How meaningless it is. Muslim radicalism...ohh the sky is falling.

It just simply is the case that tens of millions (possibly hundreds of millions) have been paid by the energy companies and others to public relations firms to do precisely what has worked in the past for other business interests under some threat of negative revelations and reduction in profits. And the most fundamental strategy in those cases has been to cast the findings and the science as inadequate or as false. That's factual and its well documented.


Do you believe that "corporations" are the only organizations that deal in misinformation, propaganda, selective reporting of facts and other devices to create a prefabricated impression or belief? My strong impression is that most advocacy groups, ranging from Amnesty International, to Green Peace, The Sierra Club, Planned Parenthood, the National Rifle Association, the national Education Association, etc. etc, etc. all do the same on a full time basis. What makes this any worse if it is done by a corporation?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Oct, 2007 10:14 pm
Climate change disaster is upon us, warns UN

Quote:
Quote:
A record number of floods, droughts and storms around the world this year amount to a climate change "mega disaster", the United Nation's emergency relief coordinator, Sir John Holmes, has warned.

Sir John, a British diplomat who is also known as the UN's under-secretary-general for humanitarian affairs, said dire predictions about the impact of global warming on humanity were already coming true.

"We are seeing the effects of climate change. Any year can be a freak but the pattern looks pretty clear to be honest. That's why we're trying ... to say, of course you've got to deal with mitigation of emissions, but this is here and now, this is with us already," he said.

As a measure of the worsening situation, Ocha, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - part of the UN secretariat that employs Sir John - has issued 13 emergency "flash" appeals so far this year. The number is three more than in 2005, which held the previous record.


http://i23.tinypic.com/30blhy9.jpg
Source: The Guardian, 05.10.07, page 5
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 03:57 am
Well its not my fault. I have at least one low energy light bulb in my house.

Its God's fault if anyone's.

Or as God is never at fault it must be divine retribution. Those people must have been very naughty or they wouldnt be flooded.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 05:08 am
Well Steve-

Assuming you are correct in thinking that it is our scientific world, and the increasing export of it to all the rest, that is the direct cause of the scenes in the pictures Walt so kindly provided for us so that our breakfasts might stick in our craw, for once, then it is not God's fault at all. It is the fault of the Devil and the temptation he offered. That's why we are called Faustians. It's why names like Mephistopheles have a sinister sense to them.

God provided the "greenhouse effect", a thermostat if you like, so that life on earth could adjust to minor terrestial happenings which might escape His attention. He can't be everywhere. But the Devil tempted mankind (Faust) with Science which God is supposed to have bet the Devil couldn't do to His divine creation. The second one I mean. When He found He had given Adam one too many ribs. Her indoors to be precise.

God wouldn't have bet the Devil had He allowed for His divine creations falling for a sucker punch like thinking he can know everything and have everything. God must obviously have known that that was an impossible dream. You only have to compare His thermostat to the one on your wall to see that.

And everytime you dig a spoon into a low-fat apricot yoghurt you can see just how fiendish that old Nick was.

One has to wonder if the Devil had tried his tricks on other zones and been told to go fluke it himself. The freezing conditions in Northern Europe being the place where his suggestions had the desired effect. If God's spin doctors were on the job they would say that his Divine Highness had never expected any of his divine creations would venture into such regions without a fur coat.

Although I have little doubt that you have a more sensible explanation. One that deflects responsibility like your sarcasm is intended to do.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 08:20 am
spendius wrote:
God provided the "greenhouse effect", a thermostat if you like, so that life on earth could adjust to minor terrestial happenings which might escape His attention. He can't be everywhere.
Laughing Sometimes Spendy I do believe you have a sense of humour.

OK I might have got my poles of polarity mixed up when it comes to good and evil, but I think I can be forgiven for that. Sometimes an act of God can look remarkably like the floods hurricanes and droughts (above) which are, now you explain, obviously the Devil's work.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 09:13 am
okie wrote :

Quote:
If I claim the world will end tomorrow, does there need to be a panel to prove me wrong?


okie :
once the president appoints you his chief scientific advisor you will be permitted to make such claim . in the meantime ... :wink:
perhaps the president is looking for a new advisor on such matters as global warming ? Shocked
hbg
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 10:05 am
hamburger wrote:
okie wrote :

Quote:
If I claim the world will end tomorrow, does there need to be a panel to prove me wrong?


okie :
once the president appoints you his chief scientific advisor you will be permitted to make such claim . in the meantime ... :wink:
perhaps the president is looking for a new advisor on such matters as global warming ? Shocked
hbg

Just because I have supposedly great credentials and a big title in front of my name does not change a stupid statement to a smart one. Some predictions can be given more weight by the qualifications of the person making them, but predictions based on highly questionable input into a highly questionable equation cannot simply come true by the will of the person that concocted them.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 10:14 am
blatham wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Then, of course there is 'Chicken little' and her story about the sky falling in.

Clearly that too was a product of corporate scheming.


The Chicken Little story. How handy it is. How meaningless it is. Muslim radicalism...ohh the sky is falling.

It just simply is the case that tens of millions (possibly hundreds of millions) have been paid by the energy companies and others to public relations firms to do precisely what has worked in the past for other business interests under some threat of negative revelations and reduction in profits. And the most fundamental strategy in those cases has been to cast the findings and the science as inadequate or as false. That's factual and its well documented.

Imagine if you have a school-age youngster who comes home with an assignment to learn about the history of tobacco and public health, and she asks for your help and knowledge, are you going to omit what you know about the ubiquitous and long term strategies of the tobacco companies to hide the science they knew and while at the same time setting up front groups to snowjob the public and legislators?

Blatham, as much as you believe the energy companies have a biased motive, there is great reason to believe government, environmental groups, and organizations like the U.N. are even more biased and have an underlying motive to the green movement. In fact, it is my firm belief that the new home of failed socialist and communist movements now reside in the environmental movement.

The Chicken Little story is very alive and well, and there are countless examples, both ways I might add. Bush opponents are Chicken Littles when they talk about things like wiretapping terrorist suspects, as if all Americans will soon be fried in ovens. On the other hand, they disagree with what they perceive as Chicken Little when they talk about terrorism. Terrorism is fairly benign and harmless, just a crime problem is all, and the Bush fascists are only using it to get elected and hold power.

Tobacco is not a very good example. To bring it up to date, it is liberals, social liberals to be specific, that made drugs commonplace in the 60's and yet today hesitate to really combat the problem, which is destroying families and perhaps millions of lives in this country today.

I believe your side is 180 degrees out of phase, Blatham.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 10:20 am
Quote:

Blatham, as much as you believe the energy companies have a biased motive, there is great reason to believe government, environmental groups, and organizations like the U.N. are even more biased and have an underlying motive to the green movement. In fact, it is my firm belief that the new home of failed socialist and communist movements now reside in the environmental movement.


When energy companies are biased, it leads to their own personal profit.

When those after environmental cleanliness are biased, it leads to profit for every single person on the planet.

Upon what do you place your belief that socialists and communists reside in the environmental movement? Other then the fact that you don't like either of them. Surely you have some objective evidence?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 10:33 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Blatham, as much as you believe the energy companies have a biased motive, there is great reason to believe government, environmental groups, and organizations like the U.N. are even more biased and have an underlying motive to the green movement. In fact, it is my firm belief that the new home of failed socialist and communist movements now reside in the environmental movement.


When energy companies are biased, it leads to their own personal profit.

When those after environmental cleanliness are biased, it leads to profit for every single person on the planet.


It is power and profit, cyclops. Not profit as in dollars per share, but profit in terms of political power and the power to tax the rest of us peons out here into poverty. In a sense, business competes with government, and that is why government wants to increase its power and sway. That fact is self evident.

Quote:
Upon what do you place your belief that socialists and communists reside in the environmental movement? Other then the fact that you don't like either of them. Surely you have some objective evidence?

Cycloptichorn

Plenty of evidence all around. Look at the people driving the green organizations, at what they propose to fix their perceived problems, it always more government. Just a little matter of note, where did Gorby gravitate to. Not that he matters, but big government people are almost always tree huggers or sympathetic to tree huggers.

Of course, central planning has traditionally been the worst polluters in terms of political system, so that fact alone tends to expose their motives as false.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 10:40 am
okie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Blatham, as much as you believe the energy companies have a biased motive, there is great reason to believe government, environmental groups, and organizations like the U.N. are even more biased and have an underlying motive to the green movement. In fact, it is my firm belief that the new home of failed socialist and communist movements now reside in the environmental movement.


When energy companies are biased, it leads to their own personal profit.

When those after environmental cleanliness are biased, it leads to profit for every single person on the planet.


It is power and profit, cyclops. Not profit as in dollars per share, but profit in terms of political power and the power to tax the rest of us peons out here into poverty. In a sense, business competes with government, and that is why government wants to increase its power and sway. That fact is self evident.

Quote:
Upon what do you place your belief that socialists and communists reside in the environmental movement? Other then the fact that you don't like either of them. Surely you have some objective evidence?

Cycloptichorn

Plenty of evidence all around. Look at the people driving the green organizations, at what they propose to fix their perceived problems, it always more government. Just a little matter of note, where did Gorby gravitate to. Not that he matters, but big government people are almost always tree huggers or sympathetic to tree huggers.

Of course, central planning has traditionally been the worst polluters in terms of political system, so that fact alone tends to expose their motives as false.


Sorry, but the environmental movement isn't driven by 'power and profit.' This is nothing but your callous determination to not have to pay a red cent for anything you aren't forced to. Yes, things cost money to do in a clean way; you don't seem to realize that power and profit is what is driving each and every bit of anti-environmental science out there. Or you just don't care, b/c Corporate power and profit in your world is good, and gov't power and profit in your world is bad.

Surely you can point to the huge numbers of people in the enviornmental movement who are former socialists and communists. And, I am forced to ask; are you really familiar with Gorby and his time in office? He did more to get rid of those things in Russia than many others.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 12:26 pm
Cyclo wrote-

Quote:
Sorry, but the environmental movement isn't driven by 'power and profit.


They are even more dangerous than I thought.

Does it not constitute "profit" that Bernie can zip from coast to coast at his whim using money derived from USA inc? And partake of all the other wonderfully exciting activities he doubtless enjoys.

PS. Will someone explain to Walt how to post pics without wrecking the page.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 12:29 pm
spendius wrote:
Cyclo wrote-

Quote:
Sorry, but the environmental movement isn't driven by 'power and profit.


They are even more dangerous than I thought.

Does it not constitute "profit" that Bernie can zip from coast to coast at his whim using money derived from USA inc? And partake of all the other wonderfully exciting activities he doubtless enjoys.

PS. Will someone explain to Walt how to post pics without wrecking the page.


This entire post is a non-sequitur and irrelevant to the topic of discussion.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 12:33 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
[
When energy companies are biased, it leads to their own personal profit.

When those after environmental cleanliness are biased, it leads to profit for every single person on the planet.


I can readily understand (and forecast) the motives of a corporation interested in advancing or protecting its own economic welfare. The motives of advocacy groups of all kinds, particularly including environmental groups are often much harder to divine.

A great leap of faith is required to assume that the 'biases' of environmental groups will nesessarily benefit all of mankind. There are clear winners and losers in this game, and a good deal of 'environmental advocacy' is merely a mask for other less laudable motives. (Did you ever wonder why the San Francisco Metrorail system, BART, was never extended to Marin County or Palo Alto?).

The Sierra Club, through a stubborn and very clever campaign of legal intervention, prevented the dredging and deepening of the port of Oakland for almost twenty years because of the supposed effects of the PCB and metal contaminated sediments there. (the planned dumping site was a 7000' deep former Navy weapons dumping area 20 miles offshore.) Oakland had huge advantages as a port because (1) the great circle distance from Japan & South Asia is a good deal less, and (2) it already had ample pier and cargo staging space as well as direct rail access to all three rail lines -- both significant advantages over Los Angeles. During that 20 year delay Los Angeles invested $3.5 billion dollars in a series of huge construction projects to create a similarly efficient artificial port to capture the trade in new deep-draft container ships, reducing Oakland's market share from over 50 % to less than 15%. Now that the infrastructure is there, most ships continue to sail the greater distance to Los Angeles - even though they burn more fuel in getting there.

After the game was lost, the Sierra Club settled its lawsuits, agreeing to place the supposedly "dangerous" dredge spoils in new artificial wetlands in the northern part of the San Francisco Bay. (The 'contamination' levels in the spoils were only about 25% higher that the average levels throughout the Bay, hardly significant at all).

About four years ago the Environmental Protection Agency in a much publicized action ruled to compel the General Electric Company to dredge major sections of the Hudson River to remove PCB contaminated sediments that were the result of prior GE use of PCBs in fire-resistent oils for transformers and other like devices. (At the time Federal safety regulations REQUIRED the use of these fire resistent oils). The attendant controversy focused on the facts that (1) the removal action (dredging) would actually raise the average PCB levels in the river for the next 40 or so years, and (2) that the PCB levels were naturally decreasing due to a combination of chemical breakdown and gradual leeching into the flowing river. The ecological risk assessment established that (1) the human health risk from the PCBs in the river was negligable (a risk equivalent to that of eating two pieces of toast per week), and (2) the multi billion dollar cleanup program wouldn't significantly reduce the risk anyway.

Despite these arguments the EPA ruled that the cleanup must proceed. An interesting part of the Superfund Law is that EPA is empowered to levy fines attendant to these decisions, fines that are used by the Agency to fund its own operations. Guess what - most of the bureaucrats involved in the decision making occupied positions that were paid for by these very fines. Somehow I don't think that their interests were identical to those of all mankind.

Venality, greed and the desire for power are human conditions. They are not confined to corporations.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 12:41 pm
spendius wrote:
PS. Will someone explain to Walt how to post pics without wrecking the page.


Sorry. I didn't know your monitor settings.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 12:42 pm
Sure, but they are no more prevalent amongst those who are working to clean the environment then they are amongst those who are working to increase the size of their bank account; and there's a good deal of evidence that in many cases the opposite is true. I can find instances of corporations who have stellar behavior and you can find instances of corrupt environmentalists. We both know however that neither is indicative of the overall nature of either group.

You say,

Quote:
(Did you ever wonder why the San Francisco Metrorail system, BART, was never extended to Marin County or Palo Alto?).


Yes - because the rich folks didn't want the poor folks to be able to ride the BART into their enclaves. I would note that this isn't necessarily linked with environmental reasons at all, but with elitism and classism.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 12:45 pm
Cyclo wrote-

Quote:
spendius wrote:
Cyclo wrote-

Quote:
Sorry, but the environmental movement isn't driven by 'power and profit.


They are even more dangerous than I thought.

Does it not constitute "profit" that Bernie can zip from coast to coast at his whim using money derived from USA inc? And partake of all the other wonderfully exciting activities he doubtless enjoys.


This entire post is a non-sequitur and irrelevant to the topic of discussion.


I've seen them at work Cyclo.

They don't live up to how they talk I can assure you.

But let us suppose, a brief moment is all we might dare to, that everybody took them at their word and lived like I do for other reasons, not connected to saving the earth. (Bone idleness mainly.) The Gone Fishin' / Laxybones option which is not as rare as you might think. It is just that media plays it down as a route to happiness for reasons it would insult your intelligence to set forth.

Where do you see the Dow Jones then? And all the pensions and dividends.

You will have to explain why my post was a non-sequitur. It would be better than simply asserting it. Any plonker can do that.

I was obviously using Bernie as a symbol of the "normal" American who in the aggregate is up to 21 million barrels of oil per day and rising.

Oh- and why it is irrelevant too.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Oct, 2007 12:50 pm
spendius wrote:
I've seen them at work Cyclo.

They don't live up to how they talk I can assure you.

But let us suppose, a brief moment is all we might dare to, that everybody took them at their word and lived like I do for other reasons, not connected to saving the earth. (Bone idleness mainly.) The Gone Fishin' / Laxybones option which is not as rare as you might think. It is just that media plays it down as a route to happiness for reasons it would insult your intelligence to set forth.

Where do you see the Dow Jones then? And all the pensions and dividens.

You will have to explain why my post was a non-sequitur. It would be better than simply asserting it. Any plonker can do that.

I was obviously using Bernie as a symbol of the "normal" American who in the aggregate is up to 21 million barrels of oil per day and rising.

Oh- and why it is irrelevant too.


Frankly this post didn't make any more sense then your last one. I don't feel that you have a strong grasp of the sort of language necessary for clear and effective communication.

You jump all over the place and fail to explain your ideas in detail, ever. It's irrelevant tot he topic in that we weren't discussing the things you were talking about in your last post. Bernie (Blatham) isn't a representative of the environmental movement; your shift of focus upon him was not germane to the discussion. Please try a little harder.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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