Foxfyre wrote:My earlier posts in this thread and in other related threads have all been consistent OE. Rejection of Kyoto is not rejection of concern for the environment and it is not a rejection of doing what is reasonable and constructive to effect a better life for everybody. Despite the bad press given us by the wacko left wingnuts, we conservatives really do not wish to melt the icecaps or dirty the water or air or poison the food supply or sully the beauty of God's creation.
But we also pay our way, work very hard, and believe in unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Give us a good reason to take the bus or ride a bicycle to work and we will do so. We have done a masterful job of putting scrubbers on our factories, cleaning up our rivers, dismantling toxic waste dumps, etc. The result is that our air, soil, and water is infinitely cleaner and safer than it was 30 years ago, yet the CO2 levels continue to accelerate. Why is that?
I want to know before I give up my car that is essential to my work. To attempt to do what I do without using my automobile would reduce my income by at least 2/3rds if I could do the job at all. I live in a part of the world with infrequent or no public transportation to tiny communiites spaced 40 - 60 - 100 miles or more apart with nothing in between other than jackrabbits and other desert flora and fawna.
And I am committed to conservative ideals that humans have unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I am not willing to accept an unproven scientific theory as the reason I should give up a lot of freedoms and opportunity. Show me that it is the right thing to do--"right" being the constructive and effective thing to do--and you'll have my full cooperation. Until then the jury is still out. Fortunately for us, our previous and present Presidents have seen it the same way.
Do you really think that the 156 countries who signed Kyoto are "wacko left wingnuts"? Do you think that people in countries like the UK, Germany, Sweden or Luxembourg that managed to decrease greenhouse gas emissions since signing the protocol all of a sudden sold their cars to Africa and started walking? Or that their governments all of a sudden turned into communist dictatorships and forced them to "give up a lot of freedoms and opportunity"?
Maybe its something along the lines of the theory that misery loves company? I'm only partially kidding actually.Some of those 156 countries are pretty much wacko left wingnuts, at least when compared to U.S. culture, I think.
Maybe its something along the lines of the theory that misery loves company? I'm only partially kidding actually.
Here the wacko left wingnuts are currently being exposed as the hypocrites they are by a new book that went to the top of the Amazon.com charts here within 48 hours of going on sale. They want to force or shame the rest of us into policies and restrictions that they themselves do not have to endure.
None of those countries that have signed onto Kyoto have an economy, lifestyle, or culture anything like the U.S.
I explained the tactical logistics of just getting around out here in the American west. Where in Europe is there anything similar?
We have counties that are larger than some of your countries and thousands of square miles that are not inhabited at all.
Evenso there are no more altruistic or generous or caring people on earth than you will find in America.
Give us a reason to alter our lifestyles for the good of humankind, and we have and will every single time. So far, we remain unconvinced that it is necessary to the extreme required by Kyoto.
Foxfyre wrote:Some of those 156 countries are pretty much wacko left wingnuts, at least when compared to U.S. culture, I think.
Duh. Granted.
Foxfyre wrote:Maybe its something along the lines of the theory that misery loves company? I'm only partially kidding actually.
Here the wacko left wingnuts are currently being exposed as the hypocrites they are by a new book that went to the top of the Amazon.com charts here within 48 hours of going on sale. They want to force or shame the rest of us into policies and restrictions that they themselves do not have to endure.
You mean countries like the UK, or Ireland, or Canada?
No. The UK, Ireland, and Canada are not here.
Foxfyre wrote:None of those countries that have signed onto Kyoto have an economy, lifestyle, or culture anything like the U.S.
I'd dare to say that Canada is quite comparable when it comes to economy, lifestyle or culture. Yet, Canada has signed and ratified the Koyoto protocol on December 17, 2002.
Canada is not in Europe either. And they have a population that approximates one or two American states. And they are one of 157 and therefore not exactly representative.
Foxfyre wrote:I explained the tactical logistics of just getting around out here in the American west. Where in Europe is there anything similar?
Hmmm... Maybe in Norway, north of Trondheim... But yeah, I get your point.
Foxfyre wrote:We have counties that are larger than some of your countries and thousands of square miles that are not inhabited at all.
Like Canada, right?
Again Canada is one of a lot. And it also is far more left (liberal) and socialist oriented than is the United States not to mention a lot more restrictive with their immigration policies. Thus, the economies and structure are somewhat different
Foxfyre wrote:Evenso there are no more altruistic or generous or caring people on earth than you will find in America.
Come on, Foxy, that's really rubbish. Yes, some of my American friends are definitely the most altruistic, generous, caring people I know. So are some people from other countries. And some Americans I got to know are greedy, selfish, ignorant bastards.
Sure we have our a-holes. I mentioned some earlier in my post. But on average, I'll put the American people up against anybody in the department of benevolence and concern for others.
Foxfyre wrote:Give us a reason to alter our lifestyles for the good of humankind, and we have and will every single time. So far, we remain unconvinced that it is necessary to the extreme required by Kyoto.
See, that's the point. I'm not even talking about "altering your lifestyles". You weren't talking about altering your lifestyle. You just said that, when you were using your SUV, you were transporting at least 4 people. Nobody could possibly ask for more. Well, at least at this point...
So please tell me, Foxy: How do people want to ruin your life? So far, I haven't seen any conclusive argument why that would be the case...
Well you want me to sign on to the Kyoto treaty for one. If you think I'm doing okay without it, why is that so important to you?
Some of those 156 countries are pretty much wacko left wingnuts, at least when compared to U.S. culture, I think.
Here the wacko left wingnuts are currently being exposed as the hypocrites they are by a new book that went to the top of the Amazon.com charts here within 48 hours of going on sale. They want to force or shame the rest of us into policies and restrictions that they themselves do not have to endure. None of those countries that have signed onto Kyoto have an economy, lifestyle, or culture anything like the U.S.
I explained the tactical logistics of just getting around out here in the American west. Where in Europe is there anything similar? We have counties that are larger than some of your countries and thousands of square miles that are not inhabited at all.
Evenso there are no more altruistic or generous or caring people on earth than you will find in America. Give us a reason to alter our lifestyles for the good of humankind, and we have and will every single time. So far, we remain unconvinced that it is necessary to the extreme required by Kyoto.
Dammit! The forums wouldn't let me post this up for a long time! Oh well...
Yes, for whatever reason the board loads very very slowly at times.
Foxfyre wrote:Some of those 156 countries are pretty much wacko left wingnuts, at least when compared to U.S. culture, I think.
Please name a few of these whacko left wingnut countries. I'd love to hear what you come up with. And if you say China, I'm going to laugh in your face, because no way in Hell are they left-wing. They're Communist in name only.
No, I prefer not to name any specifically. OE knows its true, but I don't want to derail the discussion into who is and who isn't the most liberal. It is not a subject that interests me. I wasn't thinking of China, though China is a sore point. The U.S. would have signed the protocol too if they were not bound to any of its provisions as China is not bound to any of its provisions.
Seriously, though, I would like to hear what countries you think are left wingnuts out of sincere interest. This is not something to mock. I have nearly come to the conclusion that both Australia and the US are polarised to the right, with no proper left-wing, making anything that is close to the centre but slightly to the left, seem like left-wing extremism.
If you think Australia and the United States don't have strong left wings, you haven't been reading even the posts on this board, much less keeping up with the politics in either country.
Quote:Here the wacko left wingnuts are currently being exposed as the hypocrites they are by a new book that went to the top of the Amazon.com charts here within 48 hours of going on sale. They want to force or shame the rest of us into policies and restrictions that they themselves do not have to endure. None of those countries that have signed onto Kyoto have an economy, lifestyle, or culture anything like the U.S.
No, I guess not. Japan, though, has half your gross national income. That's nothing to sneeze at for a county that size compared to yours. Yet, they signed.
UK. Maybe the economy isn't as big as yours, but the lifestyle and culture nearly matches. There's a saying in my country. "Whatever happens in the US, usually happens here in the UK five years later". I'm beginning to see more SUVs, unnecessary SUVs. Petrol guzzling is on the rise. Yet we signed up.
I think it is fine for those countries who signed. We didn't try to stop anybody from signing. But as a soverign nation, we thought it in our national interest to be in charge of our own policy.
Quote:I explained the tactical logistics of just getting around out here in the American west. Where in Europe is there anything similar? We have counties that are larger than some of your countries and thousands of square miles that are not inhabited at all.
Yeah, I could compare Canada. Maybe even China and Russia.
Is Russia allowed to opt out of the requirements as China is? I didn't look that up. But again, whatever floats anybody's boat. We didn't think our boat would float that well so we opted out for now.
Quote:Evenso there are no more altruistic or generous or caring people on earth than you will find in America. Give us a reason to alter our lifestyles for the good of humankind, and we have and will every single time. So far, we remain unconvinced that it is necessary to the extreme required by Kyoto.
Hardly.
Nine North-Eastern US states have signed a Kyoto-style agreement already, with New York and Jersey amongst them. Arnold Schwarzenneger is seeking to cut car emissions by 30%. 187 mayors from US towns and cities representing 40 million people have pledged to adopt Kyoto-style targets.
So I'll ask you the same question I asked OE. If we're doing okay without signing the Kyoto treaty by being in charge of our own policy, then what's the problem?
Now... 40 million people, that's a lot but what is the current US population? Something in the 100 millions, I suspect.
Try closer to 300 million. Not too many European countries come even close to that wouldn't you say?
And you know what? There is now no scientific evidence that contradicts the global warming situation.
And you know what? There is now apparently no scientific evidence that proves it either. When there is, then we can have a different discussion.
But then again, who am I to talk? I'm just some guy in a country that doesn't matter.
