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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2007 03:52 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
It may be that you are referring to turbo compound engines with super sized waste heat boilers.
Indeed, maybe we are not talking about the same thing. I described power plant yields and when I said gas, I mean natural gas, not gasoline.
For several MW power plant, a yield (electrical/thermal) of over 60% burning natural gas is quite common.
But a natural gas microturbine electrical generator yield is not that bad. A several kWs Capstone generator for example has a yield of around 30%. Not bad for this scale.
Gas turbines in tanks are well known gas guzzlers but I don't know why, maybe it's the gear, maybe it provides more horsepowers, I don't know Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2007 08:06 pm
hamburger wrote:
as a layperson , i think i better let george and mini settle their disagreement before saying much more :wink: .
hbg


As somebody who hasn't mastered the mystery of how to light the pilot light on our ancient furnace when it goes out, I don't even attempt to get in on the technical discussions. I do know the difference between a Phillips screwdriver and a thingamabob now though, so I'm getting better.

But then too, I wonder what might be considered 'frivolous' energy consumption? Is keeping our house warm enough in the winter that we are not uncomfortable considered frivolous consumption? How about driving the two or three miles to the nearest movie theater or six miles to our favorite restaurant. I mean we could walk to the McDonalds that is near our house.

I wonder how far back in time the 'greenies' would push us all before our energy consumption was considered acceptable? Ten years? Fifty? One hundred? Five hundred?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 07:22 am
George..re dino sceptics...thanks Smile

There are several competing sometimes complementary themes going on here. Our standard of living is supported by our consumption of energy. Both have risen dramatically in the last 100 years with the exploitation of petroleum resources. Conventional oil is marvellous stuff. Its cheap (ok it may not seem so but considering what it does for us its a bargain) plentiful, yields a very high EROEI and is the feed stock for so many products/fuels that without it our lives today would be almost unrecognisable. No wonder we are addicted to it.

The problem is 4 fold. Other people are queuing up in their 10s of millions wanting to share our addiction and our living standards. Demand for oil has never been higher and is set to increase. But oil supply (while there is still a lot of oil about) is going to peak fairly soon (some say might have done so already). A few years back very few people had heard of Peak Oil, now there are magazine articles all over the place. Third, burning all that fossil fuel and releasing into the atmosphere (in a geological blink of the eye) billions of tons of CO2 which had been trapped in the earth for eons, is disturbing the atmosphere and changing the climate. Fourth there is no obvious alternative energy source to oil. Everything else has either much lower EROEI or has harmful environmental consequences, or is inconvenient to use or will take decades to get the infrastructure up and running. We should have got wise to this 20+ years ago.

Now we face both climate change and energy shortage. Whether we reduce oil consumption for environmental reasons or not, we will be burning less oil in future because we just wont be able to extract it at the rate we used to as depletion bites after Peak.

The trick is to make the transition to the post oil world as easy and relatively painless as possible. I believe it is already too late on both energy shortage and climate change to make that transition without a great deal of pain.

Sadly the one country that could give world leadership on this pressing issue, your own, doesnt seem to even recognise the problem.
0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 08:53 am
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1720024.ece

Climate Change Hits Mars

Mars is being hit by rapid climate change and it is happening so fast that the red planet could lose its southern ice cap, writes Jonathan Leake. Scientists from Nasa say that Mars has warmed by about 0.5C since the 1970s. This is similar to the warming experienced on Earth over approximately the same period.

Since there is no known life on Mars it suggests rapid changes in planetary climates could be natural phenomena. The mechanism at work on Mars appears, however, to be different from that on Earth. One of the researchers, Lori Fenton, believes variations in radiation and temperature across the surface of the Red Planet are generating strong winds.

In a paper published in the journal Nature, she suggests that such winds can stir up giant dust storms, trapping heat and raising the planet's temperature. Fenton's team unearthed heat maps of the Martian surface from Nasa's Viking mission in the 1970s and compared them with maps gathered more than two decades later by Mars Global Surveyor. They found there had been widespread changes, with some areas becoming darker.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 10:19 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
George..re dino sceptics...thanks Smile

There are several competing sometimes complementary themes going on here. Our standard of living is supported by our consumption of energy. Both have risen dramatically in the last 100 years with the exploitation of petroleum resources. Conventional oil is marvellous stuff. Its cheap (ok it may not seem so but considering what it does for us its a bargain) plentiful, yields a very high EROEI and is the feed stock for so many products/fuels that without it our lives today would be almost unrecognisable. No wonder we are addicted to it.

The problem is 4 fold. Other people are queuing up in their 10s of millions wanting to share our addiction and our living standards. Demand for oil has never been higher and is set to increase. But oil supply (while there is still a lot of oil about) is going to peak fairly soon (some say might have done so already). A few years back very few people had heard of Peak Oil, now there are magazine articles all over the place. Third, burning all that fossil fuel and releasing into the atmosphere (in a geological blink of the eye) billions of tons of CO2 which had been trapped in the earth for eons, is disturbing the atmosphere and changing the climate. Fourth there is no obvious alternative energy source to oil. Everything else has either much lower EROEI or has harmful environmental consequences, or is inconvenient to use or will take decades to get the infrastructure up and running. We should have got wise to this 20+ years ago.

Now we face both climate change and energy shortage. Whether we reduce oil consumption for environmental reasons or not, we will be burning less oil in future because we just wont be able to extract it at the rate we used to as depletion bites after Peak.

The trick is to make the transition to the post oil world as easy and relatively painless as possible. I believe it is already too late on both energy shortage and climate change to make that transition without a great deal of pain.

Sadly the one country that could give world leadership on this pressing issue, your own, doesnt seem to even recognise the problem.


Well said. I agree with nearly all of it.

I would make only the following qualifications;

I am more optimistic than you about the prospects for the natural economic response to the relatively higher price of fossil fuels - that has already occurred and, by all measures will continue - to achieve the greater efficiencies in the use of energy that are generally recognized to constitute about half of the desired response to the issues. (I dread however, the authoritarian types who wish to impose their prejudgements on human freedom and creativity - they are more likely to stifle a solution than accelerate it.)

We already have many of the technologies that will provide the solution. In particular we have hardly tapped the useful potential of nuclear power. The problems associated with the, relative to other forms of power production, trivial volume & dispersion of waste produced by nuclear power are entirely manageable: the waste is long-lived, but highly concentrated and easily managed. The barrier here is the irrational response of fear mongers.

The forced imposition (through regulation or taxation) of unready or ineffective technologies (such as solar) can have seriously adverse economic consequences that could harm the economic and technological creativity and vitality that will ultimately provide us the solutions. Again the barrier here are the authoritarian impulses of the zealots who wish to control the behavior of others.

We do face continued climate change, but we really don't know what it will be or which of the many factors that influence observed changes will dominate. The earth is not now, and never has been, in equilibrium. The eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Phillipines a decade ago alone caused a temporary global cooling of the same order of magnitude that is alleged to be assiociated with a century of the warming associated with a century of the industrial age.

I have a very different view of the supposed appetite of the world for American leadership on this and other issues. Those who call for American leadership on issues they favor tend often to be the most vociferous opponents of it on others. What they really want is American followership - not leadership. In general American leadership is resented, not desired. Our part of the world is no longer united by fear of major common enemies, and it has no natural leaders. The wise course for America is to compete and thrive, avoiding unnecessary entanglements wherever possible.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 10:20 am
Yes that information has been posted in various forms several times Hokie, and each time it is ignored or dismissed by the pro-AGW crowd.

Of equal interest is that Pluto is also warming. I wonder if all the planets in between here and Pluto are also warming?
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 10:32 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Now we face both climate change and energy shortage. Whether we reduce oil consumption for environmental reasons or not, we will be burning less oil in future because we just wont be able to extract it at the rate we used to as depletion bites after Peak.
You the Brits created the problems yourself. Climate change always happens and it'll always be. Instead of trying to adapt to it, your move is to stop climate change, which is a totally absurd and cosltly hubris based on bogus science.

Instead of bulding nuclear plants and boost R&D, you spent huge sums in insignificant renewables, hit what is left of your industry with green taxes, let the energy price skyrocket, then complain "we have a problem of energy shortage". This has been your choice very much like the choice to move abroad all your industries and specialize in finance and services. That's where the Brits are when ideology messed up with energy policy and things can only get worse when your last nuclear plants will be dismantled and the natural gas reserves of the North Sea will dry up. And these are not prediction nor projection by unproved models. These are certainties with well-known deadlines.

So yes, you are quite right to worry about energy shortage. But it has nothing to do with resource or geology. It is caused by gouvernment's incompetence.
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 10:39 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Yes that information has been posted in various forms several times Hokie, and each time it is ignored or dismissed by the pro-AGW crowd.

Of equal interest is that Pluto is also warming. I wonder if all the planets in between here and Pluto are also warming?

Mars, Jupiter, Triton, Neptune, Pluto... are warming : http://motls.blogspot.com/2006/05/global-warming-on-jupiter.html

GW must be an infectious disease :wink:
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 10:46 am
My views on this subject are generally aligned with those expressed by Minitax. However, there is an area here in which I would like to make a distinction. I do agree with his analysis of the adverse consequences of environmentally-driven interventionist policies of the British government. However, I also fault equally the authoritarian excesses of the French approach to industrial and labor policy. While it is true that in the areas of nuclear power and mass transit the French government's engagement and management of industry can count some impressive successes, it also has some pervasive sclerotic effects which are adversely affecting French life.

Competent government management of our affairs is certainly almost always better than incompetent management, but less government intervention beats them all. Freedom works best.
0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 10:47 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Yes that information has been posted in various forms several times Hokie, and each time it is ignored or dismissed by the pro-AGW crowd.

Of equal interest is that Pluto is also warming. I wonder if all the planets in between here and Pluto are also warming?


I thought Steve41oo might want to start a movement to save the Martian polar bears.

(They'd pay attention if they could find someone on Mars to tax)
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 11:35 am
foxfire wrote :

Quote:
But then too, I wonder what might be considered 'frivolous' energy consumption?


i've given same examples of what i consider "frivolous" energy consumption earlier - to be honest , i think it's stupid ! - , namely : having shopping centers and modern office buildings so cold in the summer that people have to wear jackets or sweaters and having them so warm in the winter , that one literally has to "strip down" .
perhaps that is peculiar to canada , but we have also noticed it in watertown/NY when we happen to go across the border .

i also remember when we were in hawaii three years ago , the bus driving us arounnd was so cold , we were complaining to the driver - she was wearing a heavy fleece jacket and we were wearing shorts and hawaiin shirts ! "we like it COLD when we are inside or in the bus " , she said ... and we learned quickly Laughing
hbg
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 11:45 am
Minitax writes
Quote:
Climate change always happens and it'll always be. Instead of trying to adapt to it, your (the Brits') move is to stop climate change, which is a totally absurd and cosltly hubris based on bogus science.
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 11:45 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Competent government management of our affairs is certainly almost always better than incompetent management, but less government intervention beats them all. Freedom works best.
I am a libertarian so you wouldn't find me praising French interventionism even less its high speed train or its nuclear plants (which cost us a fortune).

It happens that nuclear is by chance a good solution to the GW NON-problem, so since the Brits get hysterical about a self-created problem (GW), they should adopt this, that was my point.
There is no energy shortage, even with resource scarce GB (they have plenty of coal). There is an energy problem, created by the statists themselves to justify more state intervention and planification.
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 11:53 am
hamburger wrote:
i've given same examples of what i consider "frivolous" energy consumption earlier - to be honest , i think it's stupid ! - , namely : having shopping centers and modern office buildings so cold in the summer that people have to wear jackets or sweaters and having them so warm in the winter , that one literally has to "strip down" .
There are many examples around you of "frivolous consumption" (energy or goods), if suppressed, would lead to less job or even massive unemployment. Countries where you have the lowest consumption are countries where the jobless rates are highest.
Think about it and I'm not sure you'll like it for your society.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 01:42 pm
miniTAX wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
Now we face both climate change and energy shortage. Whether we reduce oil consumption for environmental reasons or not, we will be burning less oil in future because we just wont be able to extract it at the rate we used to as depletion bites after Peak.
You the Brits created the problems yourself.
Really? Britain is responsible for changing the worlds climate and the forthcoming energy crisis? I dont think we are solely to blame
miniTAX wrote:
Climate change always happens and it'll always be.
Perhaps, but this change is unprecedented and potentially catastrophic.
miniTAX wrote:
Instead of trying to adapt to it, your move is to stop climate change, which is a totally absurd and cosltly hubris based on bogus science.
No its not. Stopping climate change is not possible. We have to do all we can not to make it any worse.

miniTAX wrote:
Instead of bulding nuclear plants and boost R&D, you spent huge sums in insignificant renewables, hit what is left of your industry with green taxes, let the energy price skyrocket, then complain "we have a problem of energy shortage".
I'm in favour of building more nuclear plants. We have no alternative. We need that and efficiency savings and renewables and clean coal. And it still wont be enough quick enough.
miniTAX wrote:
This has been your choice very much like the choice to move abroad all your industries and specialize in finance and services. That's where the Brits are when ideology messed up with energy policy
you mean the ideology of the market? That laissez faire capitalism will provide basic things like utilities and power? The market cant do that, its too big, only govts can give the necessary direction.
miniTAX wrote:
and things can only get worse when your last nuclear plants will be dismantled and the natural gas reserves of the North Sea will dry up. And these are not prediction nor projection by unproved models. These are certainties with well-known deadlines.
north sea oil and gas are past their peak. For the next few years we will be dependent on LNG from Qatar and Algeria, and piped gas from the Norwegian sector of the N Sea, and of course from Russia, if they let us have any. Oh and we can always take your nuclear electricity, leaving you with the clean up.

miniTAX wrote:
So yes, you are quite right to worry about energy shortage. But it has nothing to do with resource or geology. It is caused by gouvernment's incompetence.
You mean governments didnt put enough oil in the ground? Smile

(has it ever occurred to you why we backed America in invading Iraq?)
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 01:49 pm
miniTAX wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Competent government management of our affairs is certainly almost always better than incompetent management, but less government intervention beats them all. Freedom works best.
I am a libertarian so you wouldn't find me praising French interventionism even less its high speed train or its nuclear plants (which cost us a fortune).

It happens that nuclear is by chance a good solution to the GW NON-problem, so since the Brits get hysterical about a self-created problem (GW), they should adopt this, that was my point.
There is no energy shortage, even with resource scarce GB (they have plenty of coal). There is an energy problem, created by the statists themselves to justify more state intervention and planification.


Then we agree across the board.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 01:53 pm
I'm not that certain re (new) nuclear power stations but otherwise agree with Steve.

Of course we could care about the climate change on other planets - but I shouldn't we look at our own frontdoor before that?

And, indeed, climate changes always have happened (and will happen, I suppose). But why shouldn't we try to reduce the fatal results if possible? Especially, when such saves a lot of money for the private household, improves the environment and make our world a bit healthier?

I don't like sitting around, saying to myself that I can't change it and that such unfortunately just happens - especially, when I have the change to try to alter it.

But that really is just my< personal view. And - partly at least - that of the US administration I've learnt today.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 01:56 pm
HokieBird wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Yes that information has been posted in various forms several times Hokie, and each time it is ignored or dismissed by the pro-AGW crowd.

Of equal interest is that Pluto is also warming. I wonder if all the planets in between here and Pluto are also warming?


I thought Steve41oo might want to start a movement to save the Martian polar bears.

(They'd pay attention if they could find someone on Mars to tax)
I dont care about Martian polar bears, nor much about terrestrial hokie birds....when they come out with silly comments like that.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 02:02 pm
minitax wrote :

Quote:
There are many examples around you of "frivolous consumption" (energy or goods), if suppressed, would lead to less job or even massive unemployment. Countries where you have the lowest consumption are countries where the jobless rates are highest.
Think about it and I'm not sure you'll like it for your society.


Laughing

reminds me of the following newspaper story :

Quote:
farmer smith was struck by lightning during a thunderstorm while praying and died shortly thereafter .
editor's advice : don't pray during a thunderstorm unless you want to wind up like farmer smith !


following minitax's advice , should we also cut down as many trees as possible , because if not , some people might not have a job ?
hbg
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 02:07 pm
hamburger wrote:
foxfire wrote :

Quote:
But then too, I wonder what might be considered 'frivolous' energy consumption?


i've given same examples of what i consider "frivolous" energy consumption earlier - to be honest , i think it's stupid ! - , namely : having shopping centers and modern office buildings so cold in the summer that people have to wear jackets or sweaters and having them so warm in the winter , that one literally has to "strip down" .
perhaps that is peculiar to canada , but we have also noticed it in watertown/NY when we happen to go across the border .

i also remember when we were in hawaii three years ago , the bus driving us arounnd was so cold , we were complaining to the driver - she was wearing a heavy fleece jacket and we were wearing shorts and hawaiin shirts ! "we like it COLD when we are inside or in the bus " , she said ... and we learned quickly Laughing
hbg


But here we go back to my previous question. My husband prefers a cooler room temperature than I do, so I am the one most likely to be hunting for a sweater both winter and summer. (It isn't always reasonable for him to remove enough clothing to be comfortable at the temperature I prefer.) So would not the cooler winter temperature compensate for the less warm summer temperature? Or must we both be uncomfortable year round to avoid being 'frivolous'?

Those cold temperatures at the mall don't feel that uncomfortable to people who are moving and shopping or doing mall walking. Make it too stuffy and warm for the shoppers and they are less likely to tarry and are far more likely to spend less. Also, large building managers will sometimes start the day with colder temperatures as the systems may otherwise not be able to do the job during the 100 degree plus fahrenheit heat of the day later.

When I was managing an indoor public swimming pool we actually had to keep the water temperature five degrees warmer in the summer than we did the winter because to the swimmers, the water temp was relative to the temperature outdoors. Make the temperature uncomfortable for them and we found attendance fell off drastically. Much of this stuff is as much psychological as anything else.

So we run out of natural gas or crude oil or whatever a few years sooner just because people want to be comfortable. We won't run out of energy. Whenever we run out of the other, we will have shifted to something else and that something else is likely to be even better and more environmentally friendly.

Anyhow, why would the pro-AGW group care if we ran out of fossil fuels earlier? Don't they want us to stop using them anyway?
0 Replies
 
 

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