Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

Advocate, precisely how much of a "changing our ways" are we looking at here? 10%? 20%? 50%? Do you know? (Shoot, forget precisely, just ballpark it.)

How do you propose that these changes be made?

Frankly, if we have to make a radical change inside of ten years, or we're screwed, it's best if we don't change -at all-; we'll need the output to deal with the results when they come, and there's certainly no magic bullet available. Nor will draconian regulations help - because there is precisely no way we'll be able to push them onto China or India, they'd only serve to displace industry and not actually slow CO2 output. You'd end up with a lot of unemployed people in the US and Europe, though...

If the change is smaller in magnitude, then maybe we can pull it off. But we need to know HOW MUCH of a change is necessary. If we're shooting for 20%, but 50% was the number that would have done us any good, we're (a) screwed anyway, and (b) significantly poorer!

So please, -come up with that number-. I haven't found one. (Nor is it really incumbent on me to do so - I'm defending the status quo here! ;p)

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Not being a climate scientist, I don't know? Do you?

You may be right about other countries doing their bit. But, perhaps, we could join most of the rest of world in making an effort. We should certainly enter into the Kyoto Agreement.

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Advocate wrote:

Not being a climate scientist, I don't know? Do you?

You may be right about other countries doing their bit. But, perhaps, we could join most of the rest of world in making an effort. We should certainly enter into the Kyoto Agreement.

That answer says it all.

The argument here has been for a long time, as follows:

Global warmers claim we are causing the warming, which is not proven.

They also claim that unless CO2 is cured, we are doomed.

Their solution is Kyoto, or things more draconian, but it has been shown Kyoto does little or nothing, and no solutions have been offered that does anything significant, so I guess the conclusion is it is over.

This is akin to a doctor diagnosing terminal cancer because the patient complains of a cough, for which the cause is unknown, and for which he has little evidence to say is in fact cancer, and then says something needs to be done or the patient will die, and then prescribes radiation, but has no suitable equipment to administer the radiation, so he prescribes bandaids to cover the patients body. The bandaids look like something was done by the doctor, but does absolutely nothing to treat he cancer. The doctor goes home happy, bragging he did something, and his practice makes a big profit, but the patient is left to stumble around wrapped with bandages that do him no good. But at least he doesn't die because he probably does not have cancer.

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maporsche wrote:

miniTAX wrote:
sea rise is NOT accelerating, the Earth is cooling since 1998, no new Katrina

Sea level rise IS happening.
The Earth is NOT cooling.
And Katrina happened only 20 months ago.

- Sea level rise is happenning like it always has for 20,000 years when it was 130 m below the current level. 15,000 years ago, its speed (7m/century) was more than 30x the current speed (0,2 m/century) and the number of SUVs by then was precisely equal to ZERO.
- Yes, the Earth is cooling since 1998, satellites shows it. the HADCRU shows it. The upper ocean has stopped warming since 2000.
- Katrina is a category 3 hurricane when it touched land. It's a civil engineering, organisational and governing disaster, not a hurricane disaster even less a climatic disaster. Climate change is just an excuse of a blatant case of public negligence and incompetence.

Please, next time, develop your points more than with a "what are you smoking", otherwise I'll respectfully consider you as a troll Wink

Advocate wrote:

But, perhaps, we could join most of the rest of world in making an effort. We should certainly enter into the Kyoto Agreement.

I find funny your term "rest of the world". It reminds me of the Brits who say when there is smog and they can't see the coast of France : " the continent is isolated".
I'm sure you know that countries which sign the Annex 1 of Kyoto, ie which should reduce targeted emission are a minority. And they have no way to keep up with their posturing ? The Japaneses, the Canadians, the Australian are way off target, the European are just talking (see chart) and there is no chance "the rest of the world" would do anything, except talk.

source

http://org.eea.europa.eu/documents/newsreleases/Images/ghg2006_1.jpg

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Regarding sea level rise, miniTax can easily get answers for his region and departement in 3 rue Fondaudège :wink:

What is there at this address Walter? I know place Tourny and around but there, I don't Confused

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Of course the science is not exact. But can we take a chance when good evidence exists?

If a doctor tells you that there is a good chance you will contract cancer unless you change your behavior. would you ignore him or her because the chance is not absolute? Most would not.

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What if the doctor tells me I must quit my job or die, but I need my job to survive, and the doctor has very little hard evidence that my job is killing me? In fact, the evidence tells me that my job is only giving me a sore back at worst. I don't know about you, but I would not quit my job.

Of interest also is the fact that the doctor is working harder than me, so I would not take the doctor very seriously.

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Christ, is it really neccessary to take every argument to its' logical extreme?

We need to start building cleaner stuff and phasing out older, ineffecient and pollutive sources. That's it. An increased emphasis on doing so will help bring the technology along. And it can be profitable the whole way.

Cycloptichorn

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miniTAX wrote:

maporsche wrote:
miniTAX wrote:
sea rise is NOT accelerating, the Earth is cooling since 1998, no new Katrina

Sea level rise IS happening.
The Earth is NOT cooling.
And Katrina happened only 20 months ago.

- Sea level rise is happenning like it always has for 20,000 years when it was 130 m below the current level. 15,000 years ago, its speed (7m/century) was more than 30x the current speed (0,2 m/century) and the number of SUVs by then was precisely equal to ZERO.
- Yes, the Earth is cooling since 1998, satellites shows it. the HADCRU shows it. The upper ocean has stopped warming since 2000.
- Katrina is a category 3 hurricane when it touched land. It's a civil engineering, organisational and governing disaster, not a hurricane disaster even less a climatic disaster. Climate change is just an excuse of a blatant case of public negligence and incompetence.

Please, next time, develop your points more than with a "what are you smoking", otherwise I'll respectfully consider you as a troll

And I'm supposed to believe everything you've said is true........why? Just because you said it?

And I didn't bring up Katrina, you did.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

We need to start building cleaner stuff and phasing out older, ineffecient and pollutive sources. That's it. An increased emphasis on doing so will help bring the technology along. And it can be profitable the whole way.

I thought the grand scheme was to save the world & humanity and the discussion was if we should save polar bears & the Amazon or if we should give clean drinking water, basic sanitation, education, minimal cures for preventable diseases in order to minimize vulnerability and reduce demographic pressure on the environment.

And I read you talk about building cleaner stuff and others.
I must have been missing some episodes of the series. Crying or Very sad

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maporsche wrote:

And I'm supposed to believe everything you've said is true........why? Just because you said it?

And I didn't bring up Katrina, you did.

I did'nt ask you to believe me. I just wished you didn't troll (translation: dismiss others' arguments without ANY justification).

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Advocate wrote:

First, Gore (and others) didn't say that the world will die in 10 years. They are saying that we have a small window in which to change our ways relative to our use of fossil fuels. After that period, changes will not help. A NASA scientist, who the administration tried to muzzle, said the same thing.

The shots made at Gore's film come from the Competitive Institute, which is hardly an unbiased group. His film has solid support from respected scientists, but not from right-wing organizations.

Gore's home is essentially an office building. It uses a bit more power because the home serves as the base for his business, film, and other activities. But the charges DO constitute good swift-boating.

I thought I had responded to this, but apparently I didn't hit the 'submit' button.

Gore didn't say the world would die in 10 years; he just says that if we humans don't stop global within 10 years the world as we know it is doomed. That's pretty much the same thing and it's pretty extreme when there is zero foundation for it.

Could you please name some of those 'respected scientists' who have gone on the record as supporting the science in Gore's film? I would be fascinated to know who crawled out on that limb with him.

Could you cite an authority verifying that Gore's energy consuming primary residence is essentially an office building serving as a base for his movies, business, and other activities? I was under the impression that it was in a low density, tightly zoned, residential area where neighbors would likely object to commercial activities.

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Interestingly, the Japanese plan to make a lot of money by being in the forefront in making more energy-efficient equipment. We should be doing that, and would probably gain more jobs than otherwise.

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miniTAX wrote:

What is there at this address Walter? I know place Tourny and around but there, I don't

There are the official governmental offices (for Landes and departmental) which could give the actual relevant maritime data ... :wink:

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British Gas sees its future in green advice

Quote:

British Gas hopes to double its profits on selling gas and electricity by marketing a new range of "green" services such as home energy surveys, the installation of solar panels and more efficient boilers.

The company, whose high energy prices have attracted heavy criticism from consumer groups, has established a business called British Gas New Energy designed to help counter an expected reduction in demand for its traditional supply operation due to global warming.

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Advocate wrote:

Interestingly, the Japanese plan to make a lot of money by being in the forefront in making more energy-efficient equipment. We should be doing that, and would probably gain more jobs than otherwise.

Don't worry, Americans are where good money is to be made :
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/
"Planning" is like talking : it's cheap. :wink:

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

There are the official governmental offices (for Landes and departmental) which could give the actual relevant maritime data ... :wink:

Oh, thank you Walter.
I hope you wouldn't say the sea is exceptionnaly rising in France. It's not.
But there is coastal erosion and constant changing in the coastline, like everywhere (I've a boat on the Bassin d'Arcachon and the "passes" to the ocean changes every, 10, 15 years).

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For Gore, Hansen, the "tipping point", the 10 year delay before "irreversible" catastrophy..., there is this presentation: "An Inconvenient Truth... or Convenient Fiction?" on google video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6811621718806539208

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miniTAX wrote:

(I've a boat on the Bassin d'Arcachon and the "passes" to the ocean changes every, 10, 15 years).

I'd totally damaged our log ("tachometer") when entering the bassin because I blelieved the local pilote more than my charts and the handbook (which made our minesweeper to be the fastedd in the world afterwards :wink: )

(And cost me a couple of bouteilles de vin rouge ... ... ordinaire :wink: )

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

I'd totally damaged our log ("tachometer") when entering the bassin because I blelieved the local pilote more than my charts and the handbook (which made our minesweeper to be the fastedd in the world afterwards :wink: )

How about a 150$-on-eBay Foretrex ?
I use it also for wind sailing (hobbycat 16) but also for trekking. Great gadget (a solar charger is a must if you intent use the GPS for more than 8 hours).

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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

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