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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 02:12 pm
Interesting fellow, Mr Durkin...

Quote:
In October 1998, a television producer named Martin Durkin took a proposal to the BBC's science series, Horizon. Silicone breast implants, he claimed, far from harming women, were in fact beneficial, reducing the risk of breast cancer.

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2007/3/6/8814/25388
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 02:34 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
miniTAX wrote:
But what environmental crime had your parents committed before 1950 to have warmer winters by then, I wonder


I don't know about the environmental crimes my parents did before 1950 - I'm glad, they didn't do any during the Nazi regime.

Horror !!! I'm so sorry Walter. Should read "our parents" and absolutely not "your parents" and absolutely no reference to WWI but only self irony applied to the French (the warmest winter news article was for France).
So sorry again for the typing error and I hope you believe me Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 02:55 pm
parados wrote:
There is where you lose me again george. Since the system is so complex then you can't predict that the current will continue to flow even without melting ice caps. That would mean it is as likely for the system to stop flowing tomorrow as it is for it to continue to flow would it not?

This also leads to the statement that an analysis of the models can't predict that they currents won't shut down. Again, this leads us back to the 50/50 argument. Even the scientists that proposed that this might happen wouldn't give it a 50% chance of occurring.


I think you have it about right. The predictions that the current will shift are without scientific foundation and have no value as predictions. They are the equivalent of saying nothing. Whatever residual uncertainty existed before the question was raised, continues to exist afterwards.
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 02:59 pm
blatham wrote:

Worn out shoot-the-messenger dirty trick Confused
The skeptics are looking forward to reading a scientifc rebutal of Durkin's documentary.
Still waiting...
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 03:26 pm
Let's start with the first 2 minutes of the piece.

One of the first persons interviewed says this...

"If the CO2 increases in the atmosphere as a gas then the temperature will go up. But the ice core records show exactly the opposite. So the fundamental assumption, the most fundamental assumption of the whole theory of climate change due to humans is shown to be wrong."

This statement is a logical fallacy. It shows nothing about whether the theory is wrong or not. It only shows that something else happened in the past. I am sure george will be happy to explain it to you miniTax using chaos theory. :wink:
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 03:30 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
parados wrote:
There is where you lose me again george. Since the system is so complex then you can't predict that the current will continue to flow even without melting ice caps. That would mean it is as likely for the system to stop flowing tomorrow as it is for it to continue to flow would it not?

This also leads to the statement that an analysis of the models can't predict that they currents won't shut down. Again, this leads us back to the 50/50 argument. Even the scientists that proposed that this might happen wouldn't give it a 50% chance of occurring.


I think you have it about right. The predictions that the current will shift are without scientific foundation and have no value as predictions. They are the equivalent of saying nothing. Whatever residual uncertainty existed before the question was raised, continues to exist afterwards.

And any prediction that the current won't shift is also without scientific foundation and has no value. To say the current will continue is the equivalent of saying nothing. Therefore all science that has to do with fluid dynamics is the equivalent of nothing. There really can't be any other reasoning with your argument george. I think you just proved that the silly Programme 4 program has no science behind it. :wink:
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 03:43 pm
minitax wrote :

Quote:
My mother would say don't trust the realter explaining the cracks in the wall of your future home, trust an independant carpenter. So I wouldn't trust the insurer for climate change impacts questions.


i fully agree with your mother , minitax , and i'm sure the insurance companies are agreeing with her too .
since the insurance companies are "buying the risk" , they rely on the advice of a variety of experts in the field to help them make sound decisions about "buying the risk" - it'll be up to the actuaries thereafter to determine the premium rates .
the insurance companies wouldn't want to have to rely on the advice of the "seller of the risk' (the realtor or owner) .

the insurance companies also need to be sure that they do not impair their financial ability to pay claims way into the future , so they need to be prudent in their risk assessment .
furthermore , they need to show a profit to the shareholders or nobody would invest in them (or in the case of lloyd's of london , they have to satify "the names" who take the risk) .

personally , i would feel fairly comfortable with the the predictions of the insurance companies , because "they've got to put the money where their mouth is " - if they are wrong , they could incur great losses or worse .
none of the scientists - pro or con - are taking ANY financial risks in making their predictions .

let me just state again : "your mother definetely has it right ! " .
i'm sure we can both agree on that .
hbg
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 04:20 pm
parados wrote:
Let's start with the first 2 minutes of the piece.

One of the first persons interviewed says this...

"If the CO2 increases in the atmosphere as a gas then the temperature will go up. But the ice core records show exactly the opposite. So the fundamental assumption, the most fundamental assumption of the whole theory of climate change due to humans is shown to be wrong."

This statement is a logical fallacy. It shows nothing about whether the theory is wrong or not. It only shows that something else happened in the past. I am sure george will be happy to explain it to you miniTax using chaos theory. :wink:


Perhaps you weren't paying enough attention.

I also believe your understanding of observed correlations and the questions of cause and effect are deficient. A correlation itself does not constitute proof of anything - only an association. In particular in a correlation involving a temporal phase shift in which changes in B always follow changes in A in time, then the observation eliminates the possibility that the changes in B are the cause of the changes in A. It doesn't necessarily mean that A causes B -- that conclusion would require more information.


I believe the point they were making was that the very ice core data used by GW protagonists to demonstrate the CO2 correlation with temperature variations also demonstrates that the CO2 changes follow the temperature changes in time. Thus while the correlation is positive the phase shift denies the possibility that CO2 variations are the cause of the temperature changes. This is no fallacy --- even if you are not able to understand it.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 04:25 pm
parados wrote:
[And any prediction that the current won't shift is also without scientific foundation and has no value. To say the current will continue is the equivalent of saying nothing.

OK so far....
parados wrote:
Therefore all science that has to do with fluid dynamics is the equivalent of nothing. There really can't be any other reasoning with your argument george. I think you just proved that the silly Programme 4 program has no science behind it. :wink:
Unfortunately I believe you have proven your inability to properly use a syllogism.
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 04:29 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
This is no fallacy --- even if you are not able to understand it.
As to CO2, I'm afraid parados has switched on long ago the nay-I-can't-be-wrong mode. I would diagnose CO2 intoxication and recommend an oxygen mask in addition to a well reasonned documentary but second thoughts would be welcome. Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 04:44 pm
hamburger wrote:
the insurance companies also need to be sure that they do not impair their financial ability to pay claims way into the future , so they need to be prudent in their risk assessment .
furthermore , they need to show a profit to the shareholders or nobody would invest in them (or in the case of lloyd's of london , they have to satify "the names" who take the risk) .

personally , i would feel fairly comfortable with the the predictions of the insurance companies , because "they've got to put the money where their mouth is " - if they are wrong , they could incur great losses or worse .
none of the scientists - pro or con - are taking ANY financial risks in making their predictions .
hbg
Nothing contrarian to say against your point about insurer risk assessment hbg. The only point is that insurance compagnies don't know how to make climate prediction. Even climatologist can't ! So they viewpoint on climate risk is no more reliable than many others' who have huge stakes in climate assessment: farmers, energy brokers, infrastructure builers, floody area realters, environmentalist activists, researchers in need for funding...
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 05:44 pm
minitax wrote :

Quote:
The only point is that insurance compagnies don't know how to make climate prediction. Even climatologist can't ! So they viewpoint on climate risk is no more reliable than many others' who have huge stakes in climate assessment: farmers, energy brokers, infrastructure builers, floody area realters, environmentalist activists, researchers in need for funding...


many of those you have mentioned are relying on insurance to cover at least those losses they could not personally bear .
that's why insurance companies have to work with "assumptions" - even if they later turn out to be wrong .
after all , most of us make assumptions all the time - and we keep our fingers crossed hoping they will turn out to be correct .

the insurance companies of course have the choice of turning down the risk - but by doing that they would also forfeit any possible profit .
while insurance companies are generally fairly profitable enterprises in the ordinary type of insurance business : house fires , car insurance ... they have on occasion had huge losses when venturing into new territory or when courts - particularly in the united states - have endorsed huge settlements against the clients of the insurance companies .
one of these cases were the huge claims that arose out of exposure to asbestos .

i found the article about lloyd's of london - see link at bottom - quite interesting , because it gives at least a bit of insight into how that type of insurance is being conducted .
certainly a lot different than the pedestrian kind of life insurance - about which i know a little bit .
but even in the life insurance industry things have changed quite a bit during the last 50 years , with stricter underwriting rules about smoking and other life shortening human habits - and there is always the possibility of some new killer disease sneaking up on mankind .

imo insurance isn't really as dry a business as it might seem at first sight . quite a few interesting twists and turns .
hbg

(sorry - can't understand why i can't get a link - please insert directly into google - that seems to work)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd's_of_London
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 05:52 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
parados wrote:
Let's start with the first 2 minutes of the piece.

One of the first persons interviewed says this...

"If the CO2 increases in the atmosphere as a gas then the temperature will go up. But the ice core records show exactly the opposite. So the fundamental assumption, the most fundamental assumption of the whole theory of climate change due to humans is shown to be wrong."

This statement is a logical fallacy. It shows nothing about whether the theory is wrong or not. It only shows that something else happened in the past. I am sure george will be happy to explain it to you miniTax using chaos theory. :wink:

Perhaps you weren't paying enough attention.

I also believe your understanding of observed correlations and the questions of cause and effect are deficient. A correlation itself does not constitute proof of anything - only an association. In particular in a correlation involving a temporal phase shift in which changes in B always follow changes in A in time, then the observation eliminates the possibility that the changes in B are the cause of the changes in A. It doesn't necessarily mean that A causes B -- that conclusion would require more information.


I believe the point they were making was that the very ice core data used by GW protagonists to demonstrate the CO2 correlation with temperature variations also demonstrates that the CO2 changes follow the temperature changes in time. Thus while the correlation is positive the phase shift denies the possibility that CO2 variations are the cause of the temperature changes. This is no fallacy --- even if you are not able to understand it.

I posted the entire quote. The quote is what attempts to put cause and effect in place when it states that the ice core data proves the present hypothesis wrong. Ice dore data don't show that climate change can't be caused by humans. It only shows causes other than humans can exist. Nor does it show that CO2 can't be a cause. It only shows there are other factors besides CO2 that can drive the change. Something that is stated quite clearly in the IPCC reports.

Clearly it is logical fallacy to claim that the lack of data proves anything.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 05:55 pm
miniTAX wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
This is no fallacy --- even if you are not able to understand it.
As to CO2, I'm afraid parados has switched on long ago the nay-I-can't-be-wrong mode. I would diagnose CO2 intoxication and recommend an oxygen mask in addition to a well reasonned documentary but second thoughts would be welcome. Crying or Very sad

I have asked you repeatedly to show me where the CO2 from human burning of fossil fuels has gone since you claim it isn't in the atmosphere. You still haven't provided that answer.

You only seem to be able to respond with ad hominums.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 07:16 pm
parados wrote:

I posted the entire quote. The quote is what attempts to put cause and effect in place when it states that the ice core data proves the present hypothesis wrong. Ice dore data don't show that climate change can't be caused by humans. It only shows causes other than humans can exist. Nor does it show that CO2 can't be a cause. It only shows there are other factors besides CO2 that can drive the change. Something that is stated quite clearly in the IPCC reports.

Clearly it is logical fallacy to claim that the lack of data proves anything.


But I didn't claim that the lack of data proves anything.

I did, however, note that the phase delay in the correlation of atmospheric CO2 concentrations with temperature data, suggests that atmospheric CO2 is a consequence (= follows in sequence, and therefore a result of) the observed warming, rather than its cause - as is claimed by GW protagonists.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 08:36 pm
The logical fallacy is by the speaker in the film.

Because A has followed B in the past does not prove that B can't precede A. Because there are numerous causes for both A and B it is impossible to claim that the past proves anything about B being unable to precede A.

The fallacy is in the claim that it "proves" it.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2007 09:51 pm
parados wrote:
The logical fallacy is by the speaker in the film.

Because A has followed B in the past does not prove that B can't precede A. Because there are numerous causes for both A and B it is impossible to claim that the past proves anything about B being unable to precede A.

The fallacy is in the claim that it "proves" it.


One of the fundamental principles of science is that the laws of physics don't change over time.

It is conceivable (but not likely, given the wealth of data indicating the pattern) that both temperature rises and increases in CO2 concentrations each have a complex set of independent causes that could result in rises in CO2 concentrations preceeding warming sometime in the future. However that would necessarily mean that CO2 increases are NOT the cause of warming. Either way you are left with the same result with respect to AGW.

You are unusually liberal with the use of the phrase 'logical fallacy for one who himself is repeatedly careless with the logical relations of ideas.
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 05:12 am
parados wrote:
I have asked you repeatedly to show me where the CO2 from human burning of fossil fuels has gone since you claim it isn't in the atmosphere. You still haven't provided that answer.

You only seem to be able to respond with ad hominums.
Man, don't be ridiculous parados! Where is it that I said that CO2 from human doesn't stay in the atmosphere ???
BTW, you sound NOT very credible when criticizing others for ad hom !
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 07:42 am
miniTAX wrote:
This pretty long perspective tells us that temperature is responsible for atmospheric CO2 content and NOT the reverse. Exclamation


You have never explained how temperature is the cause the atmospheric CO2 other than to state that when the earth warms the ocean holds less CO2.

If man produces 3% of the total CO2 emissions each year and the CO2 is going up by less than those emissions then where is the added CO2 coming from? Can the oceans really be holding less since they are such a large CO2 sink in the CO2 cycle?


This from the piece I posted where you still have not refuted the math even after you claimed Rauolt's law proved you correct.

Quote:
If we assume that the whole ocean (mean depth 3795 m) is in equilibrium with the atmosphere, a one degree celsius global warming will increase the atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration by 28 ppm. For a very long time scale (ice ages and interglacials) the whole water volume may be in equilibrium with the atmosphere.


From the Mauna Lao stats we see the atmosphere concentrations have gone up

When you proposed that other changes in the ocean were also a cause of how much CO2 the ocean could hold and questioned to provide evidence of those changes, you failed to do so. Even if we assume an increase in ocean temperature above what has been observed we still don't get half of the added atmospheric CO2. What evidence do you have of other major changes in the ocean?

You also made this comment on the CO2 concentrations and have yet to back them up

miniTAX wrote:
CO2 ocean-atmo exchanges are not just explained by the Raoult law since SST is not uniformed in space or time but largely driven but unpredicted events such as oceanic currents or multidecadal oscillations. Just the 1998 El Nino event has made a huge surge and the Pinatubo or El Chichon have made a huge dip in CO2 atmo content.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 09:03 pm
miniTAX wrote:
blatham wrote:

Worn out shoot-the-messenger dirty trick Confused
The skeptics are looking forward to reading a scientifc rebutal of Durkin's documentary.
Still waiting...


There's no need to shoot someone who is already more holes than target.

Quote:
Don't let truth stand in the way of a red-hot debunking of climate change

The science might be bunkum, the research discredited. But all that counts for Channel 4 is generating controversy

George Monbiot
Tuesday March 13, 2007
The Guardian

Were it not for dissent, science, like politics, would have stayed in the dark ages. All the great heroes of the discipline - Galileo, Newton, Darwin, Einstein - took tremendous risks in confronting mainstream opinion. Today's crank has often proved to be tomorrow's visionary.

But the syllogism does not apply. Being a crank does not automatically make you a visionary. There is little prospect, for example, that Dr Mantombazana Tshabalala-Msimang, the South African health minister who has claimed Aids can be treated with garlic, lemon and beetroot, will be hailed as a genius. But the point is often confused. Professor David Bellamy, for example, while making the incorrect claim that wind farms do not have "any measurable effect" on total emissions of carbon dioxide, has compared himself to Galileo.

The problem with The Great Global Warming Swindle, which caused a sensation when it was broadcast on Channel 4 last week, is that to make its case it relies not on future visionaries, but on people whose findings have already been proved wrong. The implications could not be graver. Just as the government launches its climate change bill and Gordon Brown and David Cameron start jostling to establish their green credentials, thousands have been misled into believing there is no problem to address.

The film's main contention is that the current increase in global temperatures is caused not by rising greenhouse gases, but by changes in the activity of the sun. It is built around the discovery in 1991 by the Danish atmospheric physicist Dr Eigil Friis-Christensen that recent temperature variations on Earth are in "strikingly good agreement" with the length of the cycle of sunspots.

Unfortunately, he found nothing of the kind. A paper published in the journal Eos in 2004 reveals that the "agreement" was the result of "incorrect handling of the physical data". The real data for recent years show the opposite: that the length of the sunspot cycle has declined, while temperatures have risen. When this error was exposed, Friis-Christensen and his co-author published a new paper, purporting to produce similar results. But this too turned out to be an artefact of mistakes - in this case in their arithmetic.

So Friis-Christensen and another author developed yet another means of demonstrating that the sun is responsible, claiming to have discovered a remarkable agreement between cosmic radiation influenced by the sun and global cloud cover. This is the mechanism the film proposes for global warming. But, yet again, the method was exposed as faulty. They had been using satellite data which did not in fact measure global cloud cover. A paper in the Journal of Atmospheric and Solar-Terrestrial Physics shows that, when the right data are used, a correlation is not found.

So the hypothesis changed again. Without acknowledging that his previous paper was wrong, Friis-Christensen's co-author, Henrik Svensmark, declared there was a correlation - not with total cloud cover but with "low cloud cover". This, too, turned out to be incorrect. Then, last year, Svensmark published a paper purporting to show cosmic rays could form tiny particles in the atmosphere. Accompanying the paper was a press release which went way beyond the findings reported in the paper, claiming it showed that both past and current climate events are the result of cosmic rays.

As Dr Gavin Schmidt of Nasa has shown on www.realclimate.org, five missing steps would have to be taken to justify the wild claims in the press release. "We've often criticised press releases that we felt gave misleading impressions of the underlying work," Schmidt says, "but this example is by far the most blatant extrapolation beyond reasonableness that we have seen." None of this seems to have troubled the programme makers, who report the cosmic ray theory as if it trounces all competing explanations.

The film also maintains that manmade global warming is disproved by conflicting temperature data. Professor John Christy speaks about the discrepancy he discovered between temperatures at the Earth's surface and temperatures in the troposphere (or lower atmosphere). But the programme fails to mention that in 2005 his data were proved wrong, by three papers in Science magazine.

Christy himself admitted last year that he was mistaken. He was one of the authors of a paper which states the opposite of what he says in the film. "Previously reported discrepancies between the amount of warming near the surface and higher in the atmosphere have been used to challenge the reliability of climate models and the reality of human-induced global warming. Specifically, surface data showed substantial global-average warming, while early versions of satellite and radiosonde data showed little or no warming above the surface. This significant discrepancy no longer exists because errors in the satellite and radiosonde data have been identified and corrected."

Until recently, when found to be wrong, scientists went back to their labs to start again. Now, emboldened by the denial industry, some of them, like the film-makers, shriek "censorship!". This is the best example of manufactured victimhood I have come across. If you demonstrate someone is wrong, you are now deemed to be silencing him.

But there is one scientist in the film whose work has not been debunked: the oceanographer Carl Wunsch. He appears to support the idea that increasing carbon dioxide is not responsible for rising global temperatures. Wunsch says he was "completely misrepresented" by the programme, and "totally misled" by the people who made it.

This is a familiar story to those who have followed the career of the director Martin Durkin. In 1998, the Independent Television Commission found that, when making a similar series, he had "misled" his interviewees about "the content and purpose of the programmes". Their views had been "distorted through selective editing". Channel 4 had to make a prime-time apology.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2032575,00.html
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