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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 09:29 pm
No analogies or metaphors! That's a cop-out.

I would like to know specifically what the negative consequences would be of implementing policies designed to slow or stop climate change.

I have seen predictions of everything from loss of life to catastrophic failure of our economy and industry. I'd like to know specifically what is going to cause either one of those.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 09:42 pm
Do I have to spell it out? Put your thinking cap on.

What would happen if you shut down power plants?

What would happen if you placed a moratorium on the operation of cars, trucks, ships, and airplanes?

What would happen if you shut off the electricity and gas to factories, office buildings, and homes?

What would happen if food was no longer in stores because the trucks that delivered the food there were grounded?

What would happen if farmers could not plant and harvest crops because of a moratorium on the operation of the equipment?

Do you get the picture or do I need to ask more questions?

I will pick this up tomorrow. Have a good evening contemplating that. And if you tell me that does not need to happen, then provide the alternative to running all of that stuff now under a some unknown technology that does not emit any CO2? Have a good evening.

P.S. Also tell me how we force China, India, and the rest of the world to quit making CO2, while we quit here?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 12:07 am
According to a report in today's The Guardian, there'll be published some new anti-climate change reports very soon:



http://i18.tinypic.com/35at6w3.jpg

Quote:
Scientists offered cash to dispute climate study


Ian Sample, science correspondent
Friday February 2, 2007
The Guardian


Scientists and economists have been offered $10,000 each by a lobby group funded by one of the world's largest oil companies to undermine a major climate change report due to be published today.
Letters sent by the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), an ExxonMobil-funded thinktank with close links to the Bush administration, offered the payments for articles that emphasise the shortcomings of a report from the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

Travel expenses and additional payments were also offered.
The UN report was written by international experts and is widely regarded as the most comprehensive review yet of climate change science. It will underpin international negotiations on new emissions targets to succeed the Kyoto agreement, the first phase of which expires in 2012. World governments were given a draft last year and invited to comment.

The AEI has received more than $1.6m from ExxonMobil and more than 20 of its staff have worked as consultants to the Bush administration. Lee Raymond, a former head of ExxonMobil, is the vice-chairman of AEI's board of trustees.

The letters, sent to scientists in Britain, the US and elsewhere, attack the UN's panel as "resistant to reasonable criticism and dissent and prone to summary conclusions that are poorly supported by the analytical work" and ask for essays that "thoughtfully explore the limitations of climate model outputs".

Climate scientists described the move yesterday as an attempt to cast doubt over the "overwhelming scientific evidence" on global warming. "It's a desperate attempt by an organisation who wants to distort science for their own political aims," said David Viner of the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia.

"The IPCC process is probably the most thorough and open review undertaken in any discipline. This undermines the confidence of the public in the scientific community and the ability of governments to take on sound scientific advice," he said.

The letters were sent by Kenneth Green, a visiting scholar at AEI, who confirmed that the organisation had approached scientists, economists and policy analysts to write articles for an independent review that would highlight the strengths and weaknesses of the IPCC report.

"Right now, the whole debate is polarised," he said. "One group says that anyone with any doubts whatsoever are deniers and the other group is saying that anyone who wants to take action is alarmist. We don't think that approach has a lot of utility for intelligent policy."

One American scientist turned down the offer, citing fears that the report could easily be misused for political gain. "You wouldn't know if some of the other authors might say nothing's going to happen, that we should ignore it, or that it's not our fault," said Steve Schroeder, a professor at Texas A&M university.

The contents of the IPCC report have been an open secret since the Bush administration posted its draft copy on the internet in April. It says there is a 90% chance that human activity is warming the planet, and that global average temperatures will rise by another 1.5 to 5.8C this century, depending on emissions.

Lord Rees of Ludlow, the president of the Royal Society, Britain's most prestigious scientific institute, said: "The IPCC is the world's leading authority on climate change and its latest report will provide a comprehensive picture of the latest scientific understanding on the issue. It is expected to stress, more convincingly than ever before, that our planet is already warming due to human actions, and that 'business as usual' would lead to unacceptable risks, underscoring the urgent need for concerted international action to reduce the worst impacts of climate change. However, yet again, there will be a vocal minority with their own agendas who will try to suggest otherwise."

Ben Stewart of Greenpeace said: "The AEI is more than just a thinktank, it functions as the Bush administration's intellectual Cosa Nostra. They are White House surrogates in the last throes of their campaign of climate change denial. They lost on the science; they lost on the moral case for action. All they've got left is a suitcase full of cash."

On Monday, another Exxon-funded organisation based in Canada will launch a review in London which casts doubt on the IPCC report. Among its authors are Tad Murty, a former scientist who believes human activity makes no contribution to global warming. Confirmed VIPs attending include Nigel Lawson and David Bellamy, who believes there is no link between burning fossil fuels and global warming.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 03:52 am
LIkely the Canadian group mentioned is the Fraser Institute, a corporate advocacy front group that has had a significant and ubiquitous presence in Canadian media for a couple or three decades. Again, I recommend to all Larry Tye's book "The Father of Spin" as a good primer on the history of corporate marketing in America - highly sophisticated, highly effective and completely amoral.

The ties between Exxon and the AEI noted in Walter's Guardian piece doesn't surprise at all. The AEI has been and remains a fundamental driving force for militarism in the middle east. Oil supplies are, of course, quite irrelevant to the US endeavor there which is motivated by deep and abiding christian humanism. Penetrating nukes for jesus.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 04:50 am
blatham wrote:
.. Oil supplies are, of course, quite irrelevant to the US endeavor there which is motivated by deep and abiding christian humanism.
Glad you cleared that one up Bernie, was beginning to have a crisis of conscience.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 05:06 am
Hi, steve! I've been following the latest Blair debacle. I think it is nearing the point where we ought to just set up the neighborhood guillotines again. Upper class house cleaning.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 05:20 am
Well I believe Madame Guillotine was French. But leaving that aside, and my general opposition to capital punishment, I'm all for a bit of random head chopping among the ermine-clad.

Blair was interviewed (grilled) on the Today program this morning. He sounded (on the bit I heard) tired...like I've never heard him before.

I'm think history will deal with him quite sympathetically. Basically a decent enough bloke, a reforming politician, a significant player on the world stage, who was undone because he lost the trust of those he needed to actually run this country - by lying about the reasons for war in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 05:43 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Well I believe Madame Guillotine was French. But leaving that aside, and my general opposition to capital punishment, I'm all for a bit of random head chopping among the ermine-clad.

Blair was interviewed (grilled) on the Today program this morning. He sounded (on the bit I heard) tired...like I've never heard him before.

I'm think history will deal with him quite sympathetically. Basically a decent enough bloke, a reforming politician, a significant player on the world stage, who was undone because he lost the trust of those he needed to actually run this country - by lying about the reasons for war in Iraq.


Did they have the gender of the guillotine as female? I didn't know that. That's hilarious.

I don't think so highly of the fellow. The capitulation to Bush seems to me mirrored in capitulations to other authoritarian forces and personalities (eg Murdoch). I think of him as immensely talented but finally, without much character or principle. That may be unfair but I have very high standards in others.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 08:30 am
Quote:
Paris, 2 February 2007 - Late last night, Working Group I of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) adopted the Summary for Policymakers of the first volume of "Climate Change 2007", also known as the Fourth Assessment Report (AR4).

"Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis", assesses the current scientific knowledge of the natural and human drivers of climate change, observed changes in climate, the ability of science to attribute changes to different causes, and projections for future climate change.

The report was produced by some 600 authors from 40 countries. Over 620 expert reviewers and a large number of government reviewers also participated. Representatives from 113 governments reviewed and revised the Summary line-by-line during the course of this week before adopting it and accepting the underlying report.


Summary for Policymakers
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 10:38 am
Bush's policies have been overwhelmingly geared toward further enriching the wealthy. This is done in the face of the growing plutocracy in our country, in which a tiny minority of super rich have most of the country's power, wealth, and income. For instance, the top 29,000 in income make more than the bottom 96 million. The Reps should look at Venezuela, where a tiny minority has reigned supreme. The result is that the present leadership, which has the support of the majority, is drifting toward socialism and confiscation of wealth. This is what will happen in our country unless things are reversed.

Today's papers talk about how our government's scientists have been muzzled by Bush politicos. A survey given to the House Committee on Oversight found that of 279 federal climate scientists who answered a mailed questionnaire, 43 percent said that they personally experienced or perceived pressure to take "climate change" or global warming out of their communications.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 11:25 am
Have you considered the possibility that it is not the job of some people to take up the political crusade of global warming? Until you see what the pressure is in the form of or what these supposed people do in terms of their job or true assignment, I think it is jumping to a big conclusion to conclude undue pressure was applied. For example, it is inappropriate and not in the job description for many of these people to be involved in the crusade.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 11:30 am
This whole argument about global warming is a farse. If the ice melts in the polars, there's not way humans can do anytying to "prevent the flooding." A Noah's ark, perhaps.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 11:46 am
okie wrote:
Do I have to spell it out? Put your thinking cap on.

What would happen if you shut down power plants?


Who said we would do such a thing?

Quote:
What would happen if you placed a moratorium on the operation of cars, trucks, ships, and airplanes?


Who said we would do such a thing?

Quote:
What would happen if you shut off the electricity and gas to factories, office buildings, and homes?


Who said we would do such a thing?

Quote:
What would happen if food was no longer in stores because the trucks that delivered the food there were grounded?


Who said we would do such a thing?

Quote:
What would happen if farmers could not plant and harvest crops because of a moratorium on the operation of the equipment?


Who said we would do such a thing?

Quote:
Do you get the picture or do I need to ask more questions?


I get the picture. Now, without appealing to extremes, how will policies designed to slow climate change or global warming kill people or destroy our economy?

You see, none of what you posted has anything to do with policies about what we are going to do in the future. Want power plants that pollute less? Build 'em! Want cars which pollute less? Build new ones, phase the old ones out! Want more efficient farming equipment? Build it! Want an energy economy which doesn't require pollution? Start working on it! Encourage it!

You don't have to shut everything down immediately to begin to work on the problem. You are appealing to extremes, taking positions which would never possibly be taken in real life b/c we just aren't going to shut off the power and water and ground every airplane out there. What more, I don't think that anyone is calling for that stuff; just that we work to make the future better than the past has been.

We get China and India on board by producing technologies which produce power cleanly, and then make a fortune selling it to them. Use the free market in our favor.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 12:05 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
We get China and India on board by producing technologies which produce power cleanly, and then make a fortune selling it to them. Use the free market in our favor.


A lot of such production and technology isn't US-made.

One of the reasons, in my opinion, why the US won't follow your idea. (Germany exports already a lot - and some are raking it in already.)
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 12:12 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Who said we would do such a thing?

I get the picture. Now, without appealing to extremes, how will policies designed to slow climate change or global warming kill people or destroy our economy?

You see, none of what you posted has anything to do with policies about what we are going to do in the future. Want power plants that pollute less? Build 'em! Want cars which pollute less? Build new ones, phase the old ones out! Want more efficient farming equipment? Build it! Want an energy economy which doesn't require pollution? Start working on it! Encourage it!

You don't have to shut everything down immediately to begin to work on the problem. You are appealing to extremes, taking positions which would never possibly be taken in real life b/c we just aren't going to shut off the power and water and ground every airplane out there. What more, I don't think that anyone is calling for that stuff; just that we work to make the future better than the past has been.

We get China and India on board by producing technologies which produce power cleanly, and then make a fortune selling it to them. Use the free market in our favor.

Cycloptichorn


As you say, "You see, none of what you posted has anything to do with policies about what we are going to do."

That is the point, cyclops, What you are doing is not curtailing CO2. It is nothing more than a bandaid.

I totally agree, improve technology within the limits of competition, free enterprise, and the natural progression of technologicial advancement along with reasonable regulations that are not draconian. I have no arguments with you on that. The whole point of my argument is that there are currently no good technologies on sufficient scale to reverse CO2 production to the extent needed to fit the alarmists warnings of doom in a decade or so. Actually, according to what some said a decade or two ago, we would all be dead by now if things continued as they have, so the sky is falling crowd has already been wrong how many times now?

To actually impact CO2 in a way to ward off the rise in CO2, it would require the shutting down of all of those things I mentioned, plus more, whether you are proposing it or not.

What is funny is Hillary is saying now she wants to take the profits of energy companies to give to government to develop alternative energy, as she says she does not wish to fix the problem with a "bandaid." Where have we heard that before? Why don't she go all the way, like Hugo Chavez, and confiscate the whole thing, and really fix the problem? Wait a few years and watch Hugo run Venezuela absolutely into the ground, and if the Democrats have their way, they will do the same thing here. Yes, take the money from the producers and the problem solvers and give it to their useless beloved government. Sad day indeed.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 12:34 pm
Quote:
The whole point of my argument is that there are currently no good technologies on sufficient scale to reverse CO2 production to the extent needed to fit the alarmists warnings of doom in a decade or so.


Sure, but we aren't alarmists, are we? We don't have to let the alarmists run the entire agenda.

I don't believe our climate is going to catastrophically shift in the next ten years, but it might in the next hundred. We need to get on top of it sooner rather than later; emphasizing and directing our economic forces towards a cleaner environment and less greenhouse gas emissions doesn't have much of a downside.

It is inevitable that we are going to have to move away from oil; and any other source of fuel is going to seem pretty expensive in comparison, because, hell, you just dig oil out of the ground! All the expensive and difficult part of the oil framework - refineries and shipping - has mostly been paid for, and is subsidized to a certain extent by the feds. When examining other options, it is important to remember that nothing (other than straight-up fusion) is going to look attractive at first compared to oil technology for these reasons.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 12:39 pm
okie,
Where do you get all your straw from? You go from one strawman to the next.
Quote:
the alarmists warnings of doom in a decade

The scientific consensus is not "DOOM" in a decade. Rolling Eyes

You might want to look up the word "curtail."

Quote:
to cut short; cut off a part of; abridge; reduce; diminish.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 12:47 pm
Quote:
World's sea levels rising at accelerating rate

Sea levels are rising even faster than scientists predicted, according to a global analysis of data from tide gauges and satellites.
The researchers say the study puts to bed claims that climate scientists have exaggerated the consequences of global warming. And because the study shows that sea level is responding even faster than expected, the work suggests governments have even less time to act in order to combat climate change.

The report was published in the journal Science ahead of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's (IPCC) report, published today, which brings together the last three years of research on global warming. The heavily trailed tome will say that it is "highly unlikely (less than 5%)" that observed warming and ice loss are due to natural factors.
http://environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,,2004718,00.html

On the plus side, Exxon scientistic employees argue, rising tides are bound to lift all boats.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 12:53 pm
OMG, the sky is falling.

Any new energy source will contribute to the economy. An infrastructure needs to be built. That is economic growth since people will have to be hired to build it. This idea that new energy sources have no economic benefit is complete bunk.

This idea that new energy sources will kill the economy is not going to happen in the real world. We have already proved it isn't going to happen. Energy costs have almost tripled in the last 6 years yet the economy wasn't destroyed. It continued to grow. Why would a new energy source that is more expensive act differently from the old energy source that tripled in cost? Remember we also get the added economic growth of building an infrastructure.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 12:56 pm
Plus the added benefit of cleaner air and water and land.

Now, my original question: what is the downside to all this? How is it going to kill our economy to begin to transition to a non-oil based energy society?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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