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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jan, 2007 07:24 pm
hamburger wrote:
okie wrote :
Quote:
Personally, I see no reason to institute draconian measures that would likely kill far more people than the perceived global warming, in my opinion, and further, I don't think there is any compelling evidence that we are causing the problem.


as i have stated , i am not an environmentalist .
i am , however , interested in learning about the "draconian measures that would likely kill far more people than the perceived global warming" .

have any climatologists forcast that people will be killed by measures reducing environmental impact ?

i understand that there is medical evidence connecting the increase of certain diseases with increased climate change/pollution(i have heard allergies and lung diseases being mentioned) .
i have so far not heard of medical science warning AGAINST action to limit global warning , climate change and increased pollution - it's difficult to know where one ends and the other starts - imo they are at least somewhat connected .

Question
hbg


One 'draconian measure' related to environment was the universal banning of DDT now attributed as the cause of many millions of deaths from malaria and, presumably, unnecessary at the time it was implemented. Then again was it necessary to save some species of birds from extinction? How many human lives are expendable to save a species of birds? The intentions were noble. The unintended consequences were disastrous.

So far as global warming goes, I don't pretend to have the expertise to determine a) if it is an AGW issue b) if it is happening at all c) if it is necessarily a bad thing if it is happening or d) it spells human disaster of global proportions.

But I can imagine scenarios where progress is hindered, new innovations would be thwarted, economies decimated, etc. etc. etc. due to ill advised policies of good intentions with unintended bad consequences. And the bad consequences could conceivably condemn some people to starvation or deaths by other unpleasant means.

Then again, according to some speculation, so could not stopping global warming if such a thing is possible.

There are many unknowns.

But I am in that camp that resists making significant life changes that are unlikely to save a single other soul. And I am in the camp that resists doing something just because it sounds noble/compassionate/moral, etc. but that accomplishes nothing or is likely to produce unintended bad consequences.

For me that is the debate on this issue. Convince me that my changing my lifestyle etc. is critical for the good of mankind, and I'll do it without so much as a whimper. But don't ask me to sign on to jargons and slogans and meaningless gestures that look good only in the newspapers.

(I am using a rhetorical "you" here of course.)
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jan, 2007 10:37 pm
hamburger wrote:
okie wrote :
Quote:
Personally, I see no reason to institute draconian measures that would likely kill far more people than the perceived global warming, in my opinion, and further, I don't think there is any compelling evidence that we are causing the problem.


as i have stated , i am not an environmentalist .
i am , however , interested in learning about the "draconian measures that would likely kill far more people than the perceived global warming" .

have any climatologists forcast that people will be killed by measures reducing environmental impact ?

i understand that there is medical evidence connecting the increase of certain diseases with increased climate change/pollution(i have heard allergies and lung diseases being mentioned) .
i have so far not heard of medical science warning AGAINST action to limit global warning , climate change and increased pollution - it's difficult to know where one ends and the other starts - imo they are at least somewhat connected .

Question
hbg


Our average life spans have increased because of industrialization, not decreased, so although some things like allergies and so forth might be linked to pollution, on balance we are healthier and are living longer due to technological advancement. Also, to clarify, it is not an open / shut case that man is causing global warming. Some may believe it, including some scientists, but obviously far from all.

There are currently no solutions to drastically decreasing CO2. I will not say something won't be developed or discovered, but the trend of CO2 is simply not going to be reversed in any big way in the next few years. Thus, if you believe we have only a few years left to do it or we are all dead if we stay on the same track, then the only solution offering any hope would be to stop using cars, trucks, ships, airplanes, shut down factories, power plants, you name it. Now, hamburger, I would consider that to be draconian, and it seems intuitively obvious that if you institute such measures, you would soon have famines, economic collapse, wars, and more.

The alarmists say the situation is dire, yet their solutions are akin to treating cancer with a bandaid, which of course is not particularly draconian, but neither does it treat the cancer that is claimed. I am simply "calling out" the alarmists and telling them to be consistent with what they believe. If they really believe the situation is that dire, then make the solution fit the problem.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jan, 2007 10:58 pm
I find it hilarious that anyone needs to be "convinced" that they need to change their habits.
Global warming or not, the earth is fast becoming a flying toxic **** heap.

I mean, is that even debatable?

One need not speak in terms of global warming or climate change to realize that with a growing global population and increased industrialization, we are shitting in our own beds.

You simply can't expect nature to do the cleaning for us. The earth and the environment will have a breaking point.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 05:24 am
From today's New Scientist

New Scientist wrote:
DIRTY TRICKS: IF SCIENCE DOESNT SUIT YOUR POLITICAL VIEWPOINT, SUPPRESS IT.

In 2004 Thomas Knutson, a climate modeller at the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, published a paper suggesting that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide would lead to more intense hurricanes. A year later, when further research supported this link, Knutson was invited to comment by a TV station. Before he could appear however, a NOAA press officer informed him his slot had been cancelled, because "the White House said no"". All further media enquiries were sent to a reasearcher who contested the link between hurricane intensity and global warming.

This story is just one of many uncovered in Atmosphere of Pressure, a report published this week by two US pressure gruoups, the Government Accountability Project (GAP) and the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS). The incidents reveal the lengths to which the Bush administration is willing to suppress information of climate change...
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 05:38 am
The real problem here...

-Scientists have to attend universities to gain their scientific expertise.
-In their first years at university, they have to study subjects like English.
-Their Shakespeare or Emily Dickenson professors will be liberals.
-The young scientists' brains are deconstructed methodically in years one and two by these liberals.
-Of course, they then hate G. Bush.
-Their hatred is so pervasive and severe that all future scientific endeavors and knowledge-accumulation goals will really have, at bottom, the motivation to harm President Bush.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 05:42 am
Ah! Finally - clarity on the decline of our scientific minds!
Laughing
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 05:59 am
When there's somethin' wrong
In the neighborhood
Who ya gonna trust?

Quote:
Exxon spokesman Mark Boudreaux said in an e-mail, "There have been nearly 350 conference presentations or publications in peer-reviewed journals. Based on that body of scientific evidence, it is clear that there have been no effects on the environment that remain ecologically significant."

Seventeen years ago, scientists predicted that the oil would be long gone by now. "We expected the natural decay rate was 25% a year. But very little of the oil actually disappeared," says Jeffrey Short, a NOAA research chemist. "What's left is going to be there a long time."

Instead, the researchers estimate, the oil is "weathering" away at a rate of 3% to 4% a year. "It will be readily detectable for decades," Short says.

Jennifer Culbertson, a marine ecologist at Boston University, is among the surprised. "The theory has been that on a rocky shore, it's not going to stay for that long, that waves will wash it away," she says.

Says Michael Baffrey of the Trustee Council: "We made a lot of assumptions about what would happen to the oil. A lot of those didn't play out."

As many as half a million birds were killed in the spill, the Alaska Department of Environmental Conservation says, including more than 150 bald eagles. As many as 4,500 sea otters died, the National Marine Fisheries Service says.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 07:01 am
Foxfyre wrote:

One 'draconian measure' related to environment was the universal banning of DDT now attributed as the cause of many millions of deaths from malaria and, presumably, unnecessary at the time it was implemented. Then again was it necessary to save some species of birds from extinction? How many human lives are expendable to save a species of birds? The intentions were noble. The unintended consequences were disastrous.
Check the REAL science before you go off on DDT Foxfyre. The real problem with malaria and DDT was the wide spread use of DDT was making malaria resistent misquitos. The same concern exists today if they return to DDT which is why they are suggesting restricting its use to buildings. The unintended consequences were that widespread use of DDT, if continued, would have not done a thing to stop malaria.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 08:04 am
blatham wrote:
The real problem here...

-Scientists have to attend universities to gain their scientific expertise.
-In their first years at university, they have to study subjects like English.


It's more an aside, but in Europe (and many other countries), you just study your subject(s) at university - all the other is done at (grammar, secondary, high) school.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 08:07 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
blatham wrote:
The real problem here...

-Scientists have to attend universities to gain their scientific expertise.
-In their first years at university, they have to study subjects like English.


It's more an aside, but in Europe (and many other countries), you just study your subject(s) at university - all the other is done at (grammar, secondary, high) school.


We DON'T CARE about what happens at your so-called "universities".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 08:16 am
Sorry, I forgot. Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 08:35 am
parados wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

One 'draconian measure' related to environment was the universal banning of DDT now attributed as the cause of many millions of deaths from malaria and, presumably, unnecessary at the time it was implemented. Then again was it necessary to save some species of birds from extinction? How many human lives are expendable to save a species of birds? The intentions were noble. The unintended consequences were disastrous.
Check the REAL science before you go off on DDT Foxfyre. The real problem with malaria and DDT was the wide spread use of DDT was making malaria resistent misquitos. The same concern exists today if they return to DDT which is why they are suggesting restricting its use to buildings. The unintended consequences were that widespread use of DDT, if continued, would have not done a thing to stop malaria.


I didn't "go off" on DDT. A member asked for an example in which draconian measures by environmenalists killed people. The DDT ban did so and it is well documented.

The fact that DDT is not the answer everywhere or is not the whole answer is irrelevent.

And I have looked at the science, both pro and con on this issue. Have you? Here are a very few sources out of many hundreds available:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol3no3/roberts.htm

http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/Fall02/DDT.html

http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/Fall02/Mosquitoes.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/04/AR2005060400130.html

http://www.malaria.org/DDTcosts.html
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 09:14 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I didn't "go off" on DDT. A member asked for an example in which draconian measures by environmenalists killed people. The DDT ban did so and it is well documented.

I agree with you. The absolute ban on DDT was a mistake; banning some particular DDT usages instead would have worked better, and whould have saved more human lives.

But, just as a tip for the future, Lyndon LaRouche and his publications have little to do with science. Therefore your list of references would make a more powerful case for your conclusions if 21st Century Science and Technology wasn't on it. Just a thought to consider.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 01:37 pm
foxfire wrote :
Quote:
The fact that DDT is not the answer everywhere or is not the whole answer is irrelevent.


Shocked Laughing

i enjoy having a good laugh now and then !
thanks !
hbg
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 01:38 pm
I would like to know what other measures than DDT will lead to the deaths of people - specifically.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 05:22 pm
Thomas wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I didn't "go off" on DDT. A member asked for an example in which draconian measures by environmenalists killed people. The DDT ban did so and it is well documented.

I agree with you. The absolute ban on DDT was a mistake; banning some particular DDT usages instead would have worked better, and whould have saved more human lives.

But, just as a tip for the future, Lyndon LaRouche and his publications have little to do with science. Therefore your list of references would make a more powerful case for your conclusions if 21st Century Science and Technology wasn't on it. Just a thought to consider.


I don't know much about Lyndon LaRouche, but there have been few faculty members as respected or esteemed at San Jose State as J Gordon Edwards. I chose that one because he wrote the piece.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 05:29 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
From today's New Scientist

New Scientist wrote:
DIRTY TRICKS: IF SCIENCE DOESNT SUIT YOUR POLITICAL VIEWPOINT, SUPPRESS IT.

In 2004 Thomas Knutson, a climate modeller at the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, published a paper suggesting that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide would lead to more intense hurricanes. A year later, when further research supported this link, Knutson was invited to comment by a TV station. Before he could appear however, a NOAA press officer informed him his slot had been cancelled, because "the White House said no"". All further media enquiries were sent to a reasearcher who contested the link between hurricane intensity and global warming.

This story is just one of many uncovered in Atmosphere of Pressure, a report published this week by two US pressure gruoups, the Government Accountability Project (GAP) and the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS). The incidents reveal the lengths to which the Bush administration is willing to suppress information of climate change...


So are hurricanes still on the increase, tracking right with increased CO2, Steve? I think you need a better example of good scientific papers than that one being stifled?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 05:38 pm
Hello, calling all those who claim that implementing programs intended to slow or halt Climate Change: in what ways will this lead to the deaths of people, and destruction of our society, as has been claimed?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 06:28 pm
cyclo trying to call :
Quote:
Hello, calling all those who claim that implementing programs intended to slow or halt Climate Change: in what ways will this lead to the deaths of people, and destruction of our society, as has been claimed?
Cycloptichorn


ring , ring , ring ...

i'm sorry , we have temporarily lost connection , pls dial again later !
Shocked :wink:
hbg
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 09:08 pm
HAMBURGER AND CYCLOPS, YOUR CALL HAS BEEN ANSWERED MORE THAN ONCE ALREADY, BUT HERE IT IS AGAIN. READ IT AND DON'T CLAIM EVER AGAIN IT IS NOT BEEN ANSWERED.
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Hello, calling all those who claim that implementing programs intended to slow or halt Climate Change: in what ways will this lead to the deaths of people, and destruction of our society, as has been claimed?

Cycloptichorn


I will try to explain a simple concept one more time. First I will liken it to the following.

A man has been diagnosed with a cancerous tumor by Doctor #1, wherein he says he will soon die if the growth of the tumor was not halted or reduced significantly very soon. So Doctor #1 prescribes a bandaid to treat the tumor.

Doctor #2 says that he sees a growth, but his knowledge of these types of tumors indicates that it will likely not grow much more before receding again, and that this type of tumor is no threat or little threat to the patient. He also says that to eradicate the tumor or significantly reduce it immediately would require a very severe type of treatment in the way of heavy doses of radiation or chemotherapy, and that in the doses required, there is a much higher chance of the patient dying than if nothing was done at all. Furthermore, he does not see any point in applying a bandaid, because although it does not harm the patient, it also does nothing to eradicate the tumor.

The strident environmentalists and pro-global warming people are like Doctor #1. They believe the situation is serious, but their solutions do nothing to cure the problem. They proclaim, as you do, that the treatment is not going to harm anyone. I agree with you completely, if the treatment is so mild, such as building more efficient cars and power plants and so forth, as we are doing already. I am also in favor of that for more reasons than global warming, I can assure you of that. But my point is that this path is only a bandaid.

If the situation is as dire as stated by many, then the fix will need to be chemotherapy or radiation, in other words not just trying to be somewhat more efficient, but would require the shuttting down of CO2 production, thus shutting down power plants and stopping cars, trucks, ships, and airplanes on a wholesale basis. Such would obviously be catastrophic in terms of the economies of nations, and the havoc that would be produced in the way of famines, wars, etc.

This is basic logic. Look at Kyoto and the graphs. Look at the world and the trends in production of CO2. This is nothing more than common sense applied to reality.

By the way, I agree with Doctor #2. There is no doomsday from CO2, but for crying out loud, for those that think there is, at least admit to the correct treatment for the disease you claim.
0 Replies
 
 

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