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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 01:13 am
Wait until you've been introduced to the torture rooms, George!
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 01:17 am
I thionk I would have been a problem in the 15th century as well.

However the priesthood of political correctitude is far more intolerant than even the Dominicans of an earlier age. And there are no Jesuits among the PC police.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 01:28 am
Since I'm born in a town nicknamed "Witch Geseke", with a mother known as the "black devil" in her youth ...
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miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 01:29 am
Monbiot is a crazy ecochondriac who is becoming hysterical because facts don't face up with his rhetorics. Monkcton response to Al Gore is based facts, studies and references. Monbiot op-ed is based on pseudo-scientific claims (saying the earth is not a blackbody but omitting to mention its emissivity is near 1 which doesn't explain why the alarmist's sensivity is still 3x to big compared to what the Stefan-Boltzman law says), refuted studies (the Mann's "hockey stick" which claims no warm medieval period existed despite hundreds of studies which find otherwise) and personal attacks.
He ends up revolving his arguments around accusing those who don't abide by his apocalyptical opinions of being oil or energy shills and taking refuge in the "consensus" argument.

Sad example of activism using bad science as an excuse.
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miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 01:37 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I don't know, miniTAX, when you've been the last time in London - I wonder, how many SUV's you can find within the Congestion Charging Zone.
Was there last year, with the whole family, with the Shuttle (took it at Gare du Nord, Paris but you have to get registered with your indentity papers at least 30 minutes in advance, not like with a classical train). I don't assume to know well London, such a huge town to visit, but as far as I could see, there were not less SUV than in Paris.
Much less old cabs with their beautifull curves than in the 90s though. Certainly victims of their CO2 spitting motorization :wink:
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 05:45 am
georgeob1 wrote:
I thionk I would have been a problem in the 15th century as well.

However the priesthood of political correctitude is far more intolerant than even the Dominicans of an earlier age. And there are no Jesuits among the PC police.


Now, I've bumped into a lot of analogies in my life but this one ranks right up there near the pinnacle of the "Dooooozies" category (mine and Walter's, it appears).

Exxon as simple village lady, defenseless, innocent of all but for the two perforations somewhere on her pale skin. And then Greenpeace, say, as the all-powerful agent of the papacy.

Being the traditionalist you are, george, and given your fondness for papal (and other varieties of hierachical) authority, I expect that century would have found you fairly comfortable.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 10:50 pm
Uh oh, this is not looking good. Mid Troposhere for November is down 0.16C globally, -0.12 in the Northern Hemisphere and -0.20 in the Southern Hemisphere! And with the snow pounding the rockies and great plains now, December might not look any better, if the weather in other parts of the world don't offset this dangerous downtrend?

http://www.junkscience.com/MSU_Temps/Warming_Look.htm

Darn graph just is not cooperating since that weird spike in 1998! Maybe we should start studying why this could develop into a dangerous ice age again?

http://www.junkscience.com/MSU_Temps/UAHMSUglobe-m.htm
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 01:51 am
okie wrote:
And with the snow pounding the rockies and great plains now, December might not look any better, if the weather in other parts of the world don't offset this dangerous downtrend?


You didn't look beyond your own nose, didn't you? (Or at the previous links ... warmest year in England .... warmest November in history ..... no snow in the Alps ... )

And it's CLIMATE CHANGE not getting warmer/colder.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 09:11 am
Walter, Okie was making a joke. Lighten up. Smile
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 09:14 am
eastern ontario has spring-like weather . not a speck of snow on the ground .
the weather map shows that the snow-line is about 150-200 miles further north than usual at this time of year .
it'll be interesting to see if the eastern end of lake ontario will freeze over this year .
when we moved here in 1956 , lake ontario would start to freeze over by christmas and cars would be driven across the ice for about three miles to the nearest island in lake ontario . for the last few years there has only be a brief freeze from late january to february , and the ice was pretty thin - certainly not strong enough to support a car .
tundra (whistling) swans have given up going south and are staying around lake ontario and the lower st. lawrence river .

so we'll go for a walk by the lake wearing a light jacket and enjoy the sunshine .
hbg
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 09:47 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
okie wrote:
And with the snow pounding the rockies and great plains now, December might not look any better, if the weather in other parts of the world don't offset this dangerous downtrend?


You didn't look beyond your own nose, didn't you? (Or at the previous links ... warmest year in England .... warmest November in history ..... no snow in the Alps ... )

And it's CLIMATE CHANGE not getting warmer/colder.


As Foxfyre pointed out, I was merely having a little fun, but in part serious per the statistics and graph I linked. And Walter, can you name a time in history when climate did not change?

As far as antecdotal evidence that I referenced, I realize it means little, but such evidence is also used by some on the other side of the debate.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 10:00 am
Do you ever get the feeling that some of the pro-AGW group, especially the media, WANT it to be true? And yet if you observe their behavior from Al Gore to media types to environmental groups you don't see them altering their lifestyle much--maybe they buy a smaller or hybrid car--but that seems to be pretty much it. (Gore doesn't even do that.) Meanwhile they don't often acknowledge the tremendous strides US manufacturers have made in developing more energy efficient homes, appliances, factories, etc. or the significant successes in cleaning up the air, soil, and water, in many cases without national or international mandates. And most seem anxious for government to force everybody else (i.e. the USA) to redouble their efforts to save the planet.

Sometimes I think many don't worry all that much about all the doom and gloom they are prophesying. What if it all is power, fame, and/or fortune motivated? Isn't that worth exploring even just a little bit in this debate? Is nobody besides me disturbed that some appear to presume to silence the critics of the AGW theories?

http://media2.salemwebnetwork.com/Townhall/Car/b/ca1218vad.jpg
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 11:21 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Do you ever get the feeling that some of the pro-AGW group, especially the media, WANT it to be true? And yet if you observe their behavior from Al Gore to media types to environmental groups you don't see them altering their lifestyle much--.....


You are right on the money Foxfyre. There is much emotional energy invested into this. It is a religion to some people, as sort of a worship of mother earth. Interestingly, Earth Day is on equinox day, also Lenin's birthday whether by coincidence or not, probably not to some as communist sympathizers love the environmental movement. They see this as a convenient vehicle or wedge to gain support and power in the future.

Remember when the fear was that the earth was entering another ice age? You will remember that was also our fault along with the evil multi-national corporations.

And as you point out, many of the most vocal environmentalists are the most wasteful. I've pointed out the Hollywood types, who jetset around the world, live in mansions, and essentially live extremely polluting and wasteful lifestyles, while at the same time they preach their message of the sky is falling to the rest of us. Deep down, I don't really think they believe their own message, otherwise they would behave differently.

One thing sure about this issue is there is more to it than the environment.

Interesting link:
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3646
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 12:27 pm
okie wrote:
Interestingly, Earth Day is on equinox day, also Lenin's birthday whether by coincidence or not, probably not to some as communist sympathizers love the environmental movement. They see this as a convenient vehicle or wedge to gain support and power in the future.


Quote:
Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Russian: Владимир Ильич Ульянов, better known by the alias Lenin (helpĀ·info) (Ленин)) (April 22, 1870 - January 21, 1924), was a Russian revolutionary, a communist politician, the main leader of the October Revolution, the first head of the Soviet Union, and the primary theorist of Leninism, a variant of Marxism.


source for both: wikipedia. (But any history book or encyclopedia or just some education will do as well for that.)



Quote:
The equinoctial Earth Day, also International Earth Day, is celebrated on the vernal equinox to mark the precise moment that spring begins in the Northern Hemisphere and autumn in the Southern Hemisphere. On equinox, night and day are in equal length anywhere on Earth. Therefore, a perfectly vertical pole standing on the equator at noon during equinox will not cast a shadow. At the South Pole, the sun sets and ends a six-month-long day while at the North Pole, the sun rises and hence ending six months of continuous darkness.

The United Nations celebrates Earth Day each year on the vernal equinox (around March 21). On February 26, 1971, UN Secretary-General U Thant signed a proclamation to that effect. At the moment of the equinox, it is traditional to observe the day by ringing the Japanese Peace Bell, a bell donated by Japan to the United Nations.



okie wrote:
One thing sure about this issue is there is more to it than the environment.

Interesting link:
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3646


Did you ever hear or get the idea that environmental groupps/supportwers exist outside the USA? Started, before you even thought about this term?

That most don't bother at all what some Holywood types say and where?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 12:30 pm
Those "numbers" in the Lenin quote are actually cyrillic:

http://i12.tinypic.com/2mcj2mv.jpg
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 12:34 pm
Walter writes
Quote:
Did you ever hear or get the idea that environmental groupps/supportwers exist outside the USA? Started, before you even thought about this term?


Do you ever consider that you're missing the point being made? Or that the Europeans also talk a bigger game than the one they actually participate in just llike Americans do? Do you get up in the morning worrying about global warming and what you can personally do to help stop it?

Do you think those who aren't practicing what they preach might not be really as concerned as they say?

Do you honestly think a huge number of people anywhere in the world are worried enough about global warming to voluntarily significantly change their lifestyles?

Do you really think it is okay to shut down the debate and close off funding for anybody who isn't accepting the conventional wisdom re AGW?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 12:37 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Walter writes
Did you ever hear or get the idea that environmental groupps/supportwers exist outside the USA? Started, before you even thought about this term?


Foxfyre wrote:
Do you ever consider that you're missing the point being made? Or that the Europeans also talk a bigger game than the one they actually participate in just llike Americans do? Do you get up in the morning worrying about global warming and what you can personally do to help stop it?


Yes.

Foxfyre wrote:
Do you think those who aren't practicing what they preach might not be really as concerned as they say?


Yes.

Foxfyre wrote:
Do you honestly think a huge number of people anywhere in the world are worried enough about global warming to voluntarily significantly change their lifestyles?


Yes.

Foxfyre wrote:
Do you really think it is okay to shut down the debate and close off funding for anybody who isn't accepting the conventional wisdom re AGW?


Well, that would be an idea ...


Next couple of questions, please.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 12:55 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Walter writes
Did you ever hear or get the idea that environmental groupps/supportwers exist outside the USA? Started, before you even thought about this term?


Foxfyre wrote:
Do you ever consider that you're missing the point being made? Or that the Europeans also talk a bigger game than the one they actually participate in just llike Americans do? Do you get up in the morning worrying about global warming and what you can personally do to help stop it?


Yes.


Not sure which of the three questions you are answering here. Maybe all?


Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Do you think those who aren't practicing what they preach might not be really as concerned as they say?


Yes.


We agree here.

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Do you honestly think a huge number of people anywhere in the world are worried enough about global warming to voluntarily significantly change their lifestyles?


Yes.


Really? Do you know of any huge numbers of people who have?

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Do you really think it is okay to shut down the debate and close off funding for anybody who isn't accepting the conventional wisdom re AGW?


Well, that would be an idea ...


We're certainly in opposition on this one.


Quote:
Next couple of questions, please.


You answered all the questions I had related to the issue of motives of power, prestige, fame, and/or fortune. Thank you for participating.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 06:38 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
And yet if you observe their behavior from Al Gore to media types to environmental groups you don't see them altering their lifestyle much--maybe they buy a smaller or hybrid car--but that seems to be pretty much it. (Gore doesn't even do that.)


That's interesting. What kind of car does Gore drive?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 07:05 pm
Piffka wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
And yet if you observe their behavior from Al Gore to media types to environmental groups you don't see them altering their lifestyle much--maybe they buy a smaller or hybrid car--but that seems to be pretty much it. (Gore doesn't even do that.)


That's interesting. What kind of car does Gore drive?


When he's not jetting around making speeches, the last I heard he drove a Cadillac Escapade to most social functions. When interviewed about that he denies that he drives it much and instead drives a hybrid but did not specify make or model. He did admit he gave Tipper a 1965 Mustang for her birthday and they would be keeping that.

And there was this article in USAToday earlier this month:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-08-09-gore-green_x.htm
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