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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Dec, 2006 09:05 am
Thomas wrote:
Yes, I do think they should -- and the gasoline tax I suggest does factor it in, while the CAFE standards you now have don't.
In France, taxes on oil is the fourth source of revenue for the governement!
The pervert effect is that it accounts so hugely to the budget that no governement is ready to encourage (other than with words) gas economy since it will worsen the deficit. For example, we, as the first agricultural country of Europe, are lagging in biodiesel simply because as it brings less tax revenue, the government is reluctant to promote it.

Paradoxically, more taxes here means less manoeuvering margins: if you want to collect more money for R&D on renewables by rising tax, you can't much compare to the US, if you raise tax, it will hurt the economy, if the barrel price goes down, you collect less vat...
People may be addicted to oil but the gov is the worst addict for flying high for so long with punitive tax levels. Law of unintended consequences.

Look at the price of oil in France and in the UK (and also the ratios of tax):

http://www.opec.org/home/PowerPoint/Taxation/images/Slide14.gif
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Dec, 2006 12:03 pm
miniTAX wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, after twelve years with the socialists in opposition and a conservative president as well as a conservative government .... I do hope some royal times are coming now for France!
Royal times, Royal hmmm... Maybe not that bad after all. We haven't had a good occasion for decapitation of the royals since The Revolution. http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/bentley.gif


Well, you can of course stay with the conservatives, like it was the last dozen years ... or even worse/better
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Dec, 2006 12:05 pm
miniTAX wrote:
I love the reply of the student:
- Interviewer: Do you think everybody should take personal responsibility to save the environment ?
Student : yes I do
- Interviewer : Do you it yourself ?
Student (the same as above): As myself, I don't.


But that's none we know, right?

But representative, yes?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Dec, 2006 01:44 pm
The UK and Germany still has some of the strongest economy in this world - even with much higher taxes on gasoline.

Amerians would have "adjusted" to higher taxes if we had followed the rest of the world on fuel tax. The US still consumes most of the gasoline produced in this world, even though we represent only five percent of the world's population.

That our government failed to plan ahead, and allowing Americans to continue buying gas-guzzlers is our own fault. To assume it would hurt our economy is another conservative scare tactic with no evidence for it. Japan pays 71 percent more taxes for gasoline than does the US. Gasoline taxes is not what put Japan's economy into recession; it was their inflation. Japan is still the second largest economy in the world.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Dec, 2006 02:35 pm
miniTAX wrote:
In France, taxes on oil is the fourth source of revenue for the governement!


It should be noted that TIPP (Taxe Intérieure de consommation sur les Produits Pétroliers = oil taxes) is not related to the price but to volume.

That's regulated in EU-Europe all the same in all countries - who wonders :wink:

Regulation here: http://europa.eu.int/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&numdoc=32003L0096&model=guichett&lg=en
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Dec, 2006 04:21 pm
Thomas writes
Quote:
Yes, I do think they should -- and the gasoline tax I suggest does factor it in, while the CAFE standards you now have don't.


Okay, a higher gas tax means the government gets more of our money and the theory is that we would drive less, so perhaps we would use 5 gallons of gasoline a week instead of the ten we use now. But that means we travel only half as far which might considerably diminish the quality of life for many.

So far as greenhouse gas emissions are concerned, how is that different than CAFE standards that reduce the amount of fuel necessary to travel from point A to point B so that we are perhaps still using 5 gallons a week instead of 10 gallons a week to travel the same distance as before?

I prefer the second way thank you, rather than hand over more to the government and have far less for the use of the people.

August 29, 2005
Gas Tax vs. Cafe Standards
There's been a lot of CAFE bashing lately, and much of it, I fear, is a bit misguided. Brad Plumer (who I don't mean to single out, he's just the most recent) joins in with a post blasting CAFE in favor of a gas tax, maybe with some means-tested rebates to ease up on the regressivity of it. A few things:

• First, gas taxes are a very direct way of influencing fuel consumption, but it's not clear that, at attainable rates, they actually do influence fuel consumption. Raising the tax by the small, incremental amounts that could (and by could, I mean in a hypothetical world where this was somehow a viable policy option) pass would likely do little to stem consumption. That's because, as it turns out, gas hasn't even been near the top price folks are willing to pay. Most simply bear the burden, preferring to pay more rather than disrupt their lifestyle. The place gas taxes make a difference is, in the end, among the poor, but if we put in rebates like Brad is suggesting, it won't affect them all. I'd like to have a gas tax because I'm all for the added revenue, but it's not going to do much against consumption. If you can afford an Expedition, you can nearly always afford more at the pump.

• Gas taxes, unlike CAFE increases, are basically impossible to pass. Particularly now. It's one thing to sneak in a gas tax when fuel is cheap, but convincing Americans of it when they're demanding a drop in gas prices is not, I think, a sound recipe for political survival. It just won't happen.

• On the other hand, 93% of Americans support an increase in CAFE standards. That doesn't make it easy -- the auto industry is a powerful lobby. But they're going to fight a gas tax too, so I'd rather our politicians be battling back with an overwhelmingly popular proposal rather than running into industry opposition while carrying a bill Americans will stone them for passing.

• The beauty of CAFE increases is that they're an action-neutral fix. Gas taxes requires a high enough price that Americans start driving less in order to conserve. So you need to jack up the price till filling up becomes so economically painful it actually changes the behavior of Americans. Demand an increase in CAFE standards and, no matter what happens, the country will use less gas. It's highly unlikely that everyone will decide their newer, more efficient car requires them to take a road trip.And it's not as if this is a serious hardship on the auto industry -- the technology is there, they've just been pushing it into more powerful cares rather than more efficient ones. We can change that, and it's be good for the country if we did.

• Brad uses an analogy to make his point: the Smiths have a little, efficient wiener car they drive everywhere and the Browns have a wasteful SUV but they conserve fuel and bike to work. Brad argues that we want to penalize the Smiths, not the Browns. Why? Why should we penalize anyone? If we force a serious increase in CAFE standards, neither the Smiths nor the Browns feel the hurt, but both end up using less gas. And if, later, peak oil comes quick enough that we need a gas tax, we can implement one. But for now, why not achieve the goal -- lower total oil consumption -- through a non-punitive, broadly popular measure? Why isn't this a no-brainer?
SOURCE
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 03:13 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
miniTAX wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, after twelve years with the socialists in opposition and a conservative president as well as a conservative government .... I do hope some royal times are coming now for France!
Royal times, Royal hmmm... Maybe not that bad after all. We haven't had a good occasion for decapitation of the royals since The Revolution. http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/bentley.gif


Well, you can of course stay with the conservatives, like it was the last dozen years ... or even worse/better
Not exactly Walter. The right has been in command only in 2002.
We had the left governement of Jospin from 1997 to 2002, a gov people are so fed up with that it led to a landslide of the right in 2002 elections: the left lost both legislative chambers (senate & parliament) AND the presidential election where Jospin didn't even pass the first round (second round opposed far-right Lepen and Chirac, the latter being elected with more than 80% of voices).

/self-lashing ON/
BTW, it's rather ironic that you consider the current governement "conservative". The right in France, by other's standards would have been considered the purest liberals by the UK labors or the Chile socialists, least to say the US democrats. No wonder why more than 100.000 French, often the young and the talented emigrate each year to North America or the UK.
/self-lashing OFF/
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 07:51 am
Foxfyre wrote:
But that means we travel only half as far which might considerably diminish the quality of life for many.

I notice that "might considerably diminish the quality of life of many" is a much weaker claim than "jeopardize everything else", which was your claim six pages ago.

Foxfyre wrote:
So far as greenhouse gas emissions are concerned, how is that different than CAFE standards that reduce the amount of fuel necessary to travel from point A to point B so that we are perhaps still using 5 gallons a week instead of 10 gallons a week to travel the same distance as before?

CAFE standards don't reward drivers for driving less, driving slower, and taking passangers with them. They punish Okie, who I take it owns an SUV but only drives very short distances with it.

Foxfyre wrote:
I prefer the second way thank you, rather than hand over more to the government and have far less for the use of the people.

False choice. The overall sum of taxes that you hand over to the government determines how much the people can spend by themselves. The share of taxes being raised on gasoline rather than income is a separate issue from that. There is no reason why raising a gasoline tax while lowering the payroll tax or the income tax by the same amount wouldn't be an improvement.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 08:23 am
Thomas wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
But that means we travel only half as far which might considerably diminish the quality of life for many.

I notice that "might considerably diminish the quality of life of many" is a much weaker claim than "jeopardize everything else", which was your claim six pages ago.


The 'everything else' was in relation to the big picture and not specifically confined to a discussion of fuel taxes vs CAFE standards. No government manipulation of driving behavior would affect my husband and me for instance as we would probably not increase the amount of miles we drive if it were cheaper to do so nor would we decrease the amount of miles if it were much more expensive to drive as we keep that pretty much to a necessary minimum now. (This is out of personal choice and not out of any noble motive to save the planet however.)

Those who do use their vehicles for recreation and pleasure, however, would suffer more with higher fuel taxes as would recreation/tourism and our trucking industry that is absolutely essential to keep products moving around our very large country. Make that transportation much more expensive and you make the cost of the products themselves much more expensive pushing up the inflation index which cuts into any benefits realized from lower payroll taxes. A double whammy.

So CAFE standards decreasing the amount of fuel necessary to burn to maintain our preferred lifestyle is the far more economical and satisfying way to go and far more beneficial to the overall economy.

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:
So far as greenhouse gas emissions are concerned, how is that different than CAFE standards that reduce the amount of fuel necessary to travel from point A to point B so that we are perhaps still using 5 gallons a week instead of 10 gallons a week to travel the same distance as before?

CAFE standards don't reward drivers for driving less, driving slower, and taking passangers with them. They punish Okie, who I take it owns an SUV but only drives very short distances with it.


In my conservative libertarian view, the government should keep the whole notion of reward and punishment to an absolute minimum. When laws and regulations improve the overall quality of life or provide essential protections for the people, they are good things. When they can be used to coerce the people within legal activties, they are much less so. And, as previously stated, I think Americans do a much better job of pooling resources (car pooling etc.) now than you are giving them credit for. And is reward and punishment more important than accomplishing a goal? If the CAFE standards accomplish the same thing as higher gas taxes and do it without lowering quality of life, why should that be a problem to anybody?

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I prefer the second way thank you, rather than hand over more to the government and have far less for the use of the people.

False choice. The overall sum of taxes that you hand over to the government determines how much the people can spend by themselves. The share of taxes being raised on gasoline rather than income is a separate issue from that. There is no reason why raising a gasoline tax while lowering the payroll tax or the income tax by the same amount wouldn't be an improvement.


There is a lot of reason why raising the gasoline tax while lowering the payroll tax would not be an improvement as I explained above. Of course I advocate lowering both and leaving more money in the hands of the people to save, spend, and invest instead of in the hands of government politicos who waste as much as they spend on anything necessary.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 08:44 am
And now this. . . .

UN downgrades man's impact on the climate
Richard Gray, Science Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph
December 10, 2006

Mankind has had less effect on global warming than previously supposed, a United Nations report on climate change will claim next year.

The UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says there can be little doubt that humans are responsible for warming the planet, but the organisation has reduced its overall estimate of this effect by 25 per cent.

In a final draft of its fourth assessment report, to be published in February, the panel reports that the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has accelerated in the past five years. It also predicts that temperatures will rise by up to 4.5 C during the next 100 years, bringing more frequent heat waves and storms.

The panel, however, has lowered predictions of how much sea levels will rise in comparison with its last report in 2001.

Climate change sceptics are expected to seize on the revised figures as evidence that action to combat global warming is less urgent.
MORE HERE

Okay, who wants to bet me a donut and cup of coffee that this is the beginning of a general trend toward increasing 'scientific evidence' that we humans aren't destroying our planet with global warming?
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 10:57 am
Foxfyre wrote:
And now this. . . .

UN downgrades man's impact on the climate
Richard Gray, Science Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph
December 10, 2006

Mankind has had less effect on global warming than previously supposed, a United Nations report on climate change will claim next year.

The UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says there can be little doubt that humans are responsible for warming the planet, but the organisation has reduced its overall estimate of this effect by 25 per cent.
They'd better have to downsize their predicted catastrophies. The more time passes, the worse is the match between past computerized educated guess and reality.

In the first IPCC report, they predicted +0,6°C for the 90's, reality is +0,2°C and temperature has not risen since 1998. They predicted a steep increase in atmospheric methane, reality is methane concentration has been stabilizing for more than 10 years (nobody knows why or how). They predicted an acceleration of sea level rising, reality is no acceleration has been observed...
For your bet, Foxfyre, the bet deadline has expired :wink:

http://img284.imageshack.us/img284/4328/image17kb.jpg
0 Replies
 
kj
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 11:10 am
It just means some places are getting cooler and warmer than others!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 02:25 pm
Minitax writes
Quote:
For your bet, Foxfyre, the bet deadline has expired :wink:


Yeah, I worded it badly. I should have bet a donut and cup of coffee that there would be increasing recognition and acknowledgment of the scientific evidence suggesting we humans aren't destroying our planet.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 03:49 pm
Funny graphics:

http://img284.imageshack.us/img284/4328/image17kb.jpg

I like the fact that the "observed trend" goes some fifty years into the future. How did the people doing the observing get the data?

(Hint: if you predict something, you called it a "prediction". Not an "observation".)

(Oh, and thanks for posting this misleading piece of garbage, minitax.)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 04:08 pm
That's the key; predicting is not observation. These so-called scientists need to go back thousands, if not millions, of years to look at climate cycles of planet earth. I believe it's been proven this planet has gone through two ice ages.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 09:18 pm
Thomas wrote:
....
CAFE standards don't reward drivers for driving less, driving slower, and taking passangers with them. They punish Okie, who I take it owns an SUV but only drives very short distances with it.


I don't own a SUV. I was simply making a hypothetical comparison with the SUV going 1 mile to work. In fact, I don't go far to work, although slightly further now than 1 mile, but I've always chosen to live fairly near my workplace, with the majority of people I've worked with always seem to have a longer commute. I hate sitting in rush hour traffic so I've chosen to minimize it. I think rush hour traffic is total insanity and a tremendous waste of time if you bother to add the time up over a period of years. With the level of communication we have now, I see no reason why some types of companies need to locate in ridiculously inefficent cities, as New York, LA, etc.

By the way, with all the noise being made about SUV's, why don't people complain about penalizing big houses, big hotels, cruises, Christmas lights, signs, gambling casinos, Las Vegas, airline travel, you name it? I could think of lots of unnecessary things besides a harmless SUV, which is actually very useful for many families. How big is Al Gore's house or houses? And how many SUV's does he own? And how many miles does he fly per year? Are all of the things he does necessary? Should it be taxed or limited? Maybe we need to take a look at his usage of energy? Maybe we need to slap a CAFE standard on all of his energy use?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 09:23 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
And now this. . . .

UN downgrades man's impact on the climate
Richard Gray, Science Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph
December 10, 2006

Mankind has had less effect on global warming than previously supposed, a United Nations report on climate change will claim next year.

The UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says there can be little doubt that humans are responsible for warming the planet, but the organisation has reduced its overall estimate of this effect by 25 per cent.

.........


Hmmm, if they are willing to downgrade it 25%, I would suspect the data may actually warrant downgrading it more than that? The reason I say so is considering the fact that this is a little "eating crow" admission, maybe they would not like to eat the whole crow yet?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 10:02 pm
okie wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
And now this. . . .

UN downgrades man's impact on the climate
Richard Gray, Science Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph
December 10, 2006

Mankind has had less effect on global warming than previously supposed, a United Nations report on climate change will claim next year.

The UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says there can be little doubt that humans are responsible for warming the planet, but the organisation has reduced its overall estimate of this effect by 25 per cent.

.........


Hmmm, if they are willing to downgrade it 25%, I would suspect the data may actually warrant downgrading it more than that? The reason I say so is considering the fact that this is a little "eating crow" admission, maybe they would not like to eat the whole crow yet?


You are quite possibly correct. It is a very large crow. Smile
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 10:53 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

You are quite possibly correct. It is a very large crow. Smile


Yes, I can just imagine them saying "oh yeah, by the way, we've taken a closer look at the data and our estimation of the part of global waming caused by man has been downgraded to none." That would go over like a lead balloon. The 25% downgrade kind of lets alot of hot air out of the balloon, doesn't it? How much more hot air might there be?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 11:17 pm
Is thia anything like this administration telling us about the progress being made in Iraq?
0 Replies
 
 

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