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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Oct, 2006 01:41 pm
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2303126#2303126
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Oct, 2006 11:53 pm
Of course, the report by the "vodoo scientist" as miniTax called him, is on the frontapges all over Europe today - simple verdict: time is running [for miniTax: e.g. Le coût exorbitant du réchauffement, Le Fugaro, pages 1, 13 and 23]


Britain to press for a new global deal to curb carbon emissions says the Guardian in one report.

More:
UK wants climate deal by 2008
Simple verdict after a complex inquiry: time is running out
Comment
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Oct, 2006 02:21 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Of course, the report by the "vodoo scientist" as miniTax called him, is on the frontapges all over Europe today - simple verdict: time is running [for miniTax: e.g. Le coût exorbitant du réchauffement, Le Fugaro, pages 1, 13 and 23]

Par ici la monnaie:
Quote:
I have little doubt that the Government will use the Stern report as a political prop, under the guise of the moral case for saving the planet, for unilaterally raising energy costs. We are promised a climate change Bill, which will enshrine carbon reduction targets, unquestioning enthusiasm for the flawed EU's emissions trading scheme and more green taxes.


As to the science, see how good cherry-picking produces fine propaganda here. I was wrong saying it was voodoo economics. Stern report is lie by omission:
Stern's Cherry Picking on Disasters and Climate Change
Quote:
The Stern Report's selective fishing out of a convenient statement from one of the background papers prepared for our workshop is a classic example of cherry picking a result from a diversity of perspectives, rather than focusing on the consensus of the entire spectrum of experts that participated in our meeting. The Stern Report even cherry picks from within the Muir-Wood et al. paper.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Oct, 2006 02:38 am
miniTAX wrote:
As to the science, see how good cherry-picking produces fine propaganda here. I was wrong saying it was voodoo economics. Stern report is lie by omission:
Stern's Cherry Picking on Disasters and Climate Change


Hmm, from your above quote:
Quote:

I haven't yet read the whole Stern report ...
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Oct, 2006 02:47 am
The Telegraph (your other quote) in the print edition about Sir Nicholas:

Quote:
Sir Nicholas Stern: a Treasury intellectual emerges from the shadows

THE CV is suitably weighty and impressive - former chief economist at the World Bank, head of the Government Economic Service, a long and distinguished career in academia and the author of a string of economic textbooks such as The Theory and Practice of Tax Reform in Developing Countries.

But Sir Nicholas Stern is also a founding member and season ticket holder at AFC Wimbledon, the football club created by supporters after the original club was taken over and moved to Milton Keynes.

Yesterday, however, he was very much the number cruncher as he emerged briefly from the shadows to issue his stark warning on global warming.

As head of the economic service, one of the most senior officials at the Treasury, his formal brief was to review the economics of climate change. But critics argue that Gordon Brown chose one of his closest aides to make sure he got the answer he wanted. Sir Nicholas's real role, they say, was to provide the justification for the Chancellor to ram through a raft of unpopular "green" taxes.

It is one of Mr Brown's favourite tactics. In recent years, he has used a report by Sir Derek Wanless, the former NatWest chief executive, to endorse his decision to carry on funding the NHS out of taxes. A report by Kate Barker, a member of the Bank of England's monetary policy committee, provided similar cover for Labour's unpopular house-building plans in the South East, while Sir Peter Gershon, the former industrialist turned mandarin, produced the justification for a cull of civil servants.

Sir Nicholas certainly offered Mr Brown an unimpeachable record, including a spell on the Government's Commission for Africa last year.

He left Peterhouse, Cambridge, in the late 1960s with a First in mathematics, before taking a doctorate in economics at Nuffield College, Oxford.

Sir Nicholas has lectured in economics at universities around the world, including spells in America, France, Japan and China and was Professor of Economics at the London School of Economics before joining the World Bank in 2000. He took up his current job at the Treasury three years ago and was knighted for "services to economics" the following year.

It is still too early to say, however, whether he will receive further honours in future for his services to the environment and the battle to tackle climate change.

Graeme Wilson
source: The Daily Telegraph, 31.10.06, page 4

And certainly, since you quoted from that paper, you've read the other comments there as well - not just the cherry-picked quotation you gave?
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Oct, 2006 02:50 am
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Oct, 2006 02:54 am
miniTAX wrote:
parados wrote:
Meanwhile you tell us how the economy will be destroyed by trying to reduce CO2 emisions.
Huh ???

Well, if that's not what you tell us, what is? What damage do you expect from global warming, what damage do you expect from curbing it, and where do you expect the optimal tradeoff to be?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Oct, 2006 06:14 am
Summing up of the UK papers, as posted by The Wrap:
Quote:
"Incontrovertible," says the FT. OK, says the Telegraph. The Stern report is frightening. But Labour isn't going to fix it, are they? So the world's getting warmer, concedes the Sun. But what's the point of giving up our cheap flights when China is pumping out pollution?

Briefly, the climate change sceptics are now sceptical about our ability to do anything about it. Nonetheless, the Sun is making a bit of an effort.

"Turning off lights can be a big turn-on," instructs Keeley, whose warming upper half has been tinged green by a judicious use of Photoshop. "Halve the number of cars on the road by offering that special someone a lift to work ... Lots of people have admired my butt. Collecting rain water for your garden in a water butt is a great way of preserving resources."

If the Sun doesn't see why its readers should give up their hard-earned luxuries, then the Independent's Dominic Lawson is equally dubious. "Mr Cameron may yet prove me wrong, but I don't think the British public is willing to give up the pleasures of cheap flights in order to shame China and India into cutting their surging carbon emissions so that sub-Saharan Africa might possibly endure less ferocious temperatures later this century. Presented with such a manifesto, they might think that they were being taken for idiots. They would be right."

Anyway, says the Telegraph, the newly-green Gordon Brown's record on environmental taxation is appalling. "Households are paying almost four times more than businesses for every ounce of pollution they create."

Labour can't agree, weighs in the Times. Mr Brown doesn't want "swingeing tax rises" on motorists and householders; David Miliband, the environment secretary, does.

So much for the sceptics. The Independent is happy to be winning the argument. "THE DAY THAT CHANGED THE CLIMATE," it splashes, picturing the Sun. (The star, not the paper - no, not the Star - oh, never mind.) "We live in unusual times. Britain, like many other parts of the world, is in the process of coming to terms with an immense challenge to our way of life on this planet. .. .What is required now is a generation of politicians around the world with the courage to do what is necessary."

"How can more countries be persuaded to join in fighting climate change?" asks the FT. "First, they must accept a responsibility to act, but be allowed to choose their actions from a mix of taxes or the trading of permits. ... Second, urgent negotiations are needed to prolong the Kyoto protocol beyond 2012; investors require the certainty of a longer term framework if they are to sink their money in low-carbon capital equipment that may last decades. Third, the Kyoto signatories need to secure firm commitments from big polluters outside that protocol."

The Guardian says the government will try to achieve the second of those aims by 2008. Mr Brown also wants a "radical rethink" of the UN and the World Bank, which he believes are ill-prepared to administer a carbon trading scheme. The paper's George Monbiot outlines an interim 10-point plan for cutting emissions: build new houses that require no heating; ban patio heaters, incandescent lightbulbs and suchlike; construct very large offshore windfarms; "freeze and then reduce" UK airport capacity; close all out-of-town supermarkets and replace them with warehouse and delivery systems; and establish a national coach network on dedicated motorway lanes that would make coach travel as fast as the car.

.... <Guardian, comment & report, as quoted above> ....
Sun: Keeley's ten green tips
Telegraph: Damning truth about Brown's green taxes
FT: Stern review offers counsel of hope
Times: Green taxes on holidays
Independent: The day that changed the climate

source: The Wrap, one of Guardian Unlimited's paid-for services.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wrap
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Oct, 2006 10:56 am
Thanks for posting all that Walter.

I've given up arguing anthropogenic climate change with these jokers. The debate has moved on. We've left them behind.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Oct, 2006 11:56 am
I'm not even sure how this relates to global warming, but the Dead Sea waters are disappearing.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Oct, 2006 01:51 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
STERN REVIEW: The Economics of Climate Change: Executive Summary

Do you have a link to the full report by any chance? I can't find it for some reason.

Edit: I found it:

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/independent_reviews/stern_review_economics_climate_change/sternreview_index.cfm

Edit again: The full report is much, much better done than the summary. I have to read it more thoroughly before I comment, but this does look like a thorough, well-argued text.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Oct, 2006 02:51 pm
Thomas wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
STERN REVIEW: The Economics of Climate Change: Executive Summary

Do you have a link to the full report by any chance? I can't find it for some reason.

Edit: I found it:

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/independent_reviews/stern_review_economics_climate_change/sternreview_index.cfm

Edit again: The full report is much, much better done than the summary. I have to read it more thoroughly before I comment, but this does look like a thorough, well-argued text.


I gave that link already yesterday - like with many links, it just wasn't noticed:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
On the HM Treasury website, btw are links for the full download of the report plus various other related to the Stern report.
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miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Nov, 2006 03:50 am
LEAKED UN REPORT SHOWS STERN IS WRONG ON CLIMATE ECONOMICS
"
The British government has vastly underestimated the costs of its green agenda, which could turn out to be up to five times more expensive than ministers are predicting, according to a leaked United Nations (UN) report obtained by The Business. The action recommended by the British Stern Review - keeping greenhouse gas levels at 550 parts per million - would cost up to 5% of global gross domestic product (GDP), according to the UN. This is in stark contrast with the Stern review, which says it will probably cost only 1%. This much lower number is used by Stern to make the case for immediate action and steep taxes to cut back on the emission of greenhouse gases. But the UN estimate undermine Stern's economic rationale.

Stern also said the cost of not acting could be 5% to 20% of global GDP. If the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change figures are right, they open up the possibility that the British proposals would cost as much as they save, making them redundant. The new UN figures, exclusive to The Business, come from a draft copy of the 2007 review of the IPCC, which is the acknowledged global authority on climate change science. The Stern review itself was explicitly based on the IPCC's last report, which didn't calculate the cost of stabilising emissions.

Embarrassingly for the British government, the IPCC has done its own sums on restricting greenhouse gas emission to various levels and has found each of the targets far more expensive than the Stern review claimed.

The debate on what to do about global warming has focused on what target to set for greenhouse gas concentrations, now at 430 parts per million (ppm). On current economic trajectory, it is feared they could reach 700ppm by the end of the century.The Stern review directly links global warming scenarios to greenhouse gas concentration levels. At 550ppm, the studies quoted in the review claim the planet is likely to warm by 3øC. Stern considers this to be dangerous, but not catastrophic. The European Union has set a target of 450ppm but the Stern review said this is unlikely to be achieved because developing economies are growing so quickly. However, the 650ppm limit was shown by Stern as inviting catastrophic climate change.

So the review looks closely at the case for keeping emissions to 550ppm, which it underplays. Stern's executive summary states: "An upper bound for the expected annual cost of emissions consistent with a trajectory leading to stabilisation at 550ppm is likely to be 1% of GDP by 2050."

But the draft copy of the IPCC's Fourth Annual Review, due for publication next year, finds the cost of achieving the same goal to be between "1% and 5% loss of global GDP". The less-ambitious target of stabilising emissions at 650ppm would cost less than 2% of GDP.

The Stern review team would not comment on the draft report as it has not been published. But The Business understands that the leaks were made available to its scientists at the time of compilation.

Sir Nicholas Stern, a former World Bank economist now working for the British Treasury, has admitted from the offset that his report could only work if it was agreed on a global basis. Ministers are to travel to India and America to promote his findings.But being contradicted by IPCC research hardly helps Britain's case, since the IPCC figures are the only ones used to frame the global debate. The leaked UN draft is circulating on the internet and will serve to undermine Stern's authority.

Though the Stern review was received to universal acclaim in London, it has been attacked in other parts of the world for being alarmist and, in some cases, incompetent. His nightmare scenario - global warming costing between 5% to 20% of GDP - was achieved by using an unusually low discount rate in his calculations. This is a standard device to justify investments with a long-term payoff.

The 11-member Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (Opec) has already given the Stern Review a cold reception. Mohammed Barkindo, Secretary-General of Opec, attacked the report at an energy conference in Moscow."We find some of the so-called initiatives of the rich industrialised countries, who are supposed to take the lead in combating climate change, rather alarming," he said. Adaptation to climate change, he added, cannot be conducted by "scenarios that have no foundations in either science or economics (referring to the Stern report's publication)".

In Washington, the Competitive Enterprise Institute (CEI) said the Stern review would have no traction internationally as its economic mistakes would be instantly recognised by experts in the field. "Stern's costs are actually more expensive than doing nothing about climate change itself," said Iain Murray, senior fellow at CEI specialising in climate change. "This is 'Chicken Little' stuff," said Murray, "except Chicken Little wasn't trying to scare the public in order to create Enron-style con games and line the pockets of Wall Street bankers at the expense of consumers."

This opprobrium sharply contrasts with the Stern review's reception in London, where his conclusions were welcomed by business and accepted by all mainstream British political parties.
"
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Nov, 2006 04:11 am
Thomas wrote:
miniTAX wrote:
parados wrote:
Meanwhile you tell us how the economy will be destroyed by trying to reduce CO2 emisions.
Huh ???

Well, if that's not what you tell us, what is? What damage do you expect from global warming, what damage do you expect from curbing it, and where do you expect the optimal tradeoff to be?

I expect no more damage from global warming than from weather change which happens all the times. If there must be something done against climate change, the most efficient way would be adaptation like helping poor nations to be more prosperous, building better housing, more irrigation infrastructure, preventing overpopulation near coastal areas...
It would be money much better spent than trying to reduce CO2 as recommended by Kyoto which doesn't work anyway.

BTW, the notion that a global warming would cause damage more than benefits is absurd. I don't recall of past events where it caused much harms whereas periods of global cooling PROVED to be much more disatrous. Take for exemple the Little Ice Age when famine and starvation caused generalized unrest throughout Europe. Another recent example is the huge volcanic explosion of the Tembora in Indonesia in 1815 which caused some region in Europe to cool more than 5°C for several years, destruction of crops, displacement of population, social unrest and death of hundred of thousands of Europeans (1816 was called the year WITHOUT summer).

A look to History gives a much better insight to climate change and its potential consequences rather than the fuzzy models and the sensationnalist news of the medias.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Nov, 2006 07:27 am
miniTAX wrote:
I expect no more damage from global warming than from weather change which happens all the times.
I see. World governments, parents and grandparents, anyone concerned for the future of mankind on earth...they are all fussing over nothing? Weather will change in the future like it changes every day now...most reassuring minitax. You know the easiest, cheapest and most effective way of addressing a problem is to deny its a problem. But its not being very honest is it?
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Nov, 2006 10:38 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
You know the easiest, cheapest and most effective way of addressing a problem is to deny its a problem. But its not being very honest is it?
Steve, what is NOT honest is to pretend Kyoto is THE solution and its predicted failure is not occuring.
Like someone said, there is often two kinds of problems: those without a solution and those with resolves by themselves. And I would add those invented by the ideologues to distract people away from real problems like public debt, pension, education for rich nations and poverty, analphabetism, lack of drinking water for more than 1/3 of all humans.

And even if something should be done, what is proposed by Kyoto (CO2 reduction) is ineffective compared to adaptation. Why should we let the bureaucrats choose for ourselves the worst solution ?
Lomborg, who believes action should be taken is proposing adaptation at a UN conference at the same time as the release of the Stern report : are you informed about it ?
Quote:
The other event was a meeting at the United Nations organized by economist Bjørn Lomborg's Copenhagen Consensus Center. Ambassadors from 24 countries--including Australia, China, India and the U.S.--mulled which problems to address if the world suddenly found an extra $50 billion lying around. Mr. Lomborg's point is that, in a world with scarce resources, you need priorities. The consensus was that communicable diseases, sanitation and water, malnutrition and hunger, and education were all higher priorities than climate change.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Nov, 2006 10:54 am
You should be honest as well, miniTAX;

It was not "an UN meeting" but - as your quotation reports correctly - "a meeting at the United Nations organized by economist Bjørn Lomborg's Copenhagen Consensus Center".

Just a tow-letter word missing, but of some importance.
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miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Nov, 2006 04:03 pm
My bad, you are right Walter. Embarrassed
I would want to add up to the exageration so commonly found in those climate change matters.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Nov, 2006 09:00 pm
I don't know if I can sleep tonight I am so worried, September was 0.24 C higher than normal, and 0.52 higher in the Northern Hemisphere. And the Southern Hemisphere was -0.04 than normal. Could be another ice age there, while we swelter here.

September 2006: +0.24 °C
Northern Hemisphere: +0.52 °C
Southern Hemisphere: -0.04 °C

These numbers from:
http://www.junkscience.com/MSU_Temps/Warming_Look.htm
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Nov, 2006 12:43 am
Looking back, 40 years on, we were intoxicated with an idea of individual freedom that was little more than greedy egotism

From The Guardian: It's hard to explain, Tom, why we did so little to stop global warming

http://i13.tinypic.com/2wn20ko.jpg
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