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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 04:04 pm
Setanta wrote:
Mr. Samuelson wrote:
Policies motivated by political gain will inflict public pain. Why should anyone applaud?


This could serve as a blanket condemnation of politicians in general, on the whole gamut of "hot button" topics, not just global warming. Politicians are absolutely necessary to the process of implementing and maintaining the social contract. They are not, however, to be trusted when they feel their public image is in the balance. They bear close watching, constant and vigilant supervision.

The remark about those who "are not hysterical about the global warming panic" was gratuitous and unnecessary--it does nothing to help the debate, and definitely lowers its tone. As for Mr. Samuelson's piece, it is congent in its condemnation of political grandstanding. It is not, however, reliable as scientific review. Although Mr. Samuelson was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize in 1998 as a commentator, there is no reason to assume that his speculations on the topic carry more weight than the opinions of scientists who study the climate for a living.


You miss the point of the article entirely which is hypocrisy.......hypocrisy on the part of the Europeans for their condemnation of the US and the Bush administration for not joining Kyoto Protocol. The following is a quote from Mr. Samuelson's article which draws attention to the hypocrisy:

Quote:
Europe is the citadel of hypocrisy. Considering Europeans' contempt for the United States and George Bush for not embracing the Kyoto Protocol, you'd expect that they would have made major reductions in greenhouse gas emissions -- the purpose of Kyoto. Well, not exactly. From 1990 (Kyoto's base year for measuring changes) to 2002, global emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2), the main greenhouse gas, increased 16.4 percent, reports the International Energy Agency. The U.S. increase was 16.7 percent, and most oof Europe hasn't done much better.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 05:12 pm
I didn't miss that point, Rayban, i just didn't focus on it the way you have, since i don't automatically dance with glee at a condemnation of European politicians. I consider them neither better nor worse than the gobshites in office here.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 07:06 pm
global warming
...WORLDWIDE CO2 EMISSIONS...

the above website gives a good outline (descriptive and graphs) of carbon dioxide emissons. neither canada nor the u.s. qualify as "poster children" for reduction in emissions (unless we want to use them as a bad example for the rest of the world).
the article states :
"Because of more rapid growth elsewhere, emissions from North America have shrunk from 46.4% of the global total in 1950 to 26.3% in 2000. Per capita emissions have been consistently high and well above those for any other region. "
a wakeup call ??? hbg
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 12:16 am
I don't see any european politicians taking credit for trying to save the planet- not yet anyway, no doubt they will if they can. At the moment, politicians and their advisers are saying there is a problem here, and we've got to agree the causes, and then agree what or whether anything can be done about it. On the radio this morning, we learn that because of US disagreement (with the rest of the world) we can not agree on the first of these. The USA is apparently also saying that it is not certain that global warming is due to human activity.
(I believe there is general agreement however, that global warming is taking place.)

It seems that no useful means of addressing this issue will come out of the G8 conference next week, to the huge disappointment of people over here.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 06:03 am
McTag - that's probably because the worst polluters on the planet, India and China, aren't members of the G-8.

Are the disappointed people you speak of doing anything about those 2 or do they focus on the attendees only? Sounds to me as if the latter is the case, so their motives can only be political rather than scientific.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 07:31 am
These are satellite pictures showing also terrible pollution generated by other non-G-8 parties like Africa, Indonesia and Latin America:

"Driving this model are data gathered from many sources, including human emissions from fossil fuels, biomass burning emissions, and natural sources of gases and particulates such as vegetation, oceans, and volcanoes, and the meteorological data provided by NASA's Data Assimilation Office."

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/Aerosols/Images/aer_od_dual.2002145.jpg

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/Aerosols/
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 07:50 am
Africa "pollution" will probably be sandstorm particles due to drought.

While we fiddle around here, glaciers everywhere are retreating uphill at an increasing rate.

Pollution, it has been claimed, actually suppresses the worst effects of greenhouse gases by masking some of the strength of the sun. This makes some sense to me.

I'm not answering all your questions HofT, I realise that...more questions than anwers at the moment. Individuals and groups here, as everywhere, are making individual efforts, but until there is international accord (so that no one country is at an economic disadvantage compared with the rest)
will meaningful steps be taken. That is why the absence of an accord is so disappointing.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2005 05:08 am
McTag - not so, the sandstorms are imaged separately.

We have a Green party in the U.S. too btw and they can't get their facts straight any more than the EU greens:

""Furthermore, nuclear power does nothing to address the major source of CO2 emissions -- cars, trucks, and airplanes," Mr. Cobb added"..."
http://www.commondreams.org/news2005/0623-22.htm

The major source is power generation, period.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 01:34 pm
Global Warming: "a phenomenon that could make civilisation history"


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/article296048.ece
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 02:12 pm
Or, could it just be that a bit more research is needed?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0630/p01s02-usgn.html
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 02:32 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Or, could it just be that a bit more research is needed?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0630/p01s02-usgn.html


More research is always welcome, but we should order pumps meanwhile to keep the laboratory floor dry.

This phenomenon (above link) has been mentioned several times on this thread alone: atmospheric particulates may reduce the harmful effects of greenhouse gases.
Maybe we can buy time by making lots of smoke....(but as they say, there's no smoke without fire).
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 02:46 pm
Well, personally, I find this man's thinking more palatable than the doom and gloom presented in your Beeb article.

Just my opinion, of course.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 03:07 pm
Right (pun intended), I would trust an adjunct professor of economics more then "11 of the world's leading academies of science, including the Royal Society" on this subject, too.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 03:11 pm
is anyone listening to live 8
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 08:59 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Well, personally, I find this man's thinking more palatable than the doom and gloom presented in your Beeb article.

Just my opinion, of course.


Finding something palatable is, well, one way of picking who/what to believe.

~~~~~~~~~~

This voice came out in an unexpected (to me) way.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=148120918&p=y48yzy6z4

Quote:
Arnie tells Bush to face up to global warming
02/07/2005 - 20:04:36 The Republican governor of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger, today sent a robust message to US President George Bush to face up to the reality of global warming.

The Republican governor of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger, today sent a robust message to US President George Bush to face up to the reality of global warming.

Climate change is at the top of the agenda for next week's G8 summit in Gleneagles, but reports suggest that Mr Bush is blocking a deal on action to tackle it, with some commentators even predicting the other seven nations may agree a statement excluding the US rather than leave Scotland without an accord.

Leaked drafts of the proposed communique on climate change appear to suggest that Washington is unwilling even to sign up to a document which states that global warming is occurring or that human activity is responsible for it.

Without mentioning his president by name, Mr Schwarzenegger used an article in tomorrow's Independent on Sunday to send a clear message of his disagreement with Mr Bush's stance.

"The debate is over," wrote the Governor of the US's largest and most economically powerful state.

"We know the science. We see the threat posed by changes in our climate. And we know the time for action is now."

Schwarzenegger pointedly called on "governments everywhere" to join action to combat climate change.

And he insisted - in contradiction to Mr Bush's stated position - that such action will boost, rather than damage, the US economy.

He added: "Global warming threatens California's water supply, public health, agriculture, coastlines and forests - our entire economy and way of life.

"We have no choice but to take action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions."

Mr Schwarzenegger highlighted California's development of hydrogen fuel technology and renewable energy sources under his administration, as well as measures to reduce engine emissions and cut electricity use in state facilities.

By 2050, California aims to reduce overall greenhouse gas emissions to 80% below 1990 levels - a target even more ambitious than the 60% goal set by Tony Blair for the UK.

Mr Schwarzenegger wrote: "These steps are great for the environment but great for our economy, too.

"Many people have falsely assumed that you have to choose between protecting the environment and protecting the economy.

"Nothing could be further from the truth. In California, we will do both."
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 09:03 pm
Hey, good for him.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 09:31 pm
ehBeth wrote:
JustWonders wrote:
Well, personally, I find this man's thinking more palatable than the doom and gloom presented in your Beeb article.

Just my opinion, of course.


Finding something palatable is, well, one way of picking who/what to believe.


I don't think "palatable" is the same as 'picking who/what to believe' exactly. I find it a bit more sensible to research a bit more before heading down the road of decimating economies on the 'hunch' that decades and decades from now the temperature may rise ... or may not.

In the meantime, there's plenty we could be doing with the billions and billions we'd spend to slow down that mythical rise.

I didn't come to this conclusion reading just that one article. I also take into consideration the more than 17,000 scientists across the world who've more or less labeled global warming as junk science. At least, they are against the Kyoto Treaty as a means of resolution.

Realizing that Mr. Lomborg has some valid points doesn't mean I 'picked' him as a belief system. I was merely pointing out there are two sides to every story. And then, there's Arnold's...lol.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 11:25 pm
Arnold for King!

Still believing that the world's only superpower should lead the charge, well beyond Kyoto, I remain disappointed in Bush's stance. However, any suggestions that the U.S. is to blame when other countries fail to address the problem, whether for financial considerations or any other, constitute unabated U.S. bashing. I pay for garbage removal, whether my neighbors do or notÂ… and my global solutions start at my house...
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2005 12:19 am
So where's the spin - in the atmosphere, or in the media?

Myths and Meteorology
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2005 12:25 am
Where's the drought? France, now. And India. USA, too.

Floods in China. 20-year drought in Africa, north and central. Food shortages becoming acute. It's not only polar icecaps we have to worry about. Agriculture is seriously disrupted, and becoming more so.
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