Where is the Centre of the Universe?

Rex, This question can get interesting simply because it seems to be fair to describe the Universe several ways. I prefer to diferentiate between "The Observable Universe" which "looks" like it's expanding and is limited by the distance which light traveled since the "Big Bang",
and the "Cosmos" which can be described as all that is. According to some theories they are both the same. According to others they are not.

Some physicists and preachers seem equally disturbed when one points out that what they take as fact is actually only theory. The difference is IMO not as great as either group would prefer

This boils down to an "Ultimate Question" which has provided mankind several challenges and amusements over the centuries. Have a good time

No!!!!

Absolutely not according to our latest theories. Spacetime didn't just expand from an origin - it actually unfolded with the big bang and continued on during inflation. The Unfolding denies locating an origin. Its not like a bomb going off in a room and saying where was the bomb - its more like the bomb creates the room and all reality as it goes.

So in 11 dimension M-brane theory you're point of origin can't be determined from within the membrane.

A simple 2 dimensional analogy might help you. You walk along a road uncrumbling a sheet of cellophane as you walk. But this cellophane is infinitely strechy and from a point on the cellophane that can only see some of the cellophane and nothing else of your reality you ask where was my origin? You can't tell because 1) its unfolded and contains all points of reference for a relative fix 2) its unfolding expansion (streching) means its own coordinate system - the units of actual length changed during its creation up until now 3) you can't give absolute position relative to anything else and 4) for the first 300,000 it was opaque years light couldn't travel thru the universe so there was no way of taking a measurement.

Its even worse than this - everything is expanding away from everything else on a guargantuan scale. The concept of 11 dimensional membrane actually expanding is very hard to grasp. The expansion denies meaning to where is the origin relative to today's units of measurement.

g__day,

OK, I am game to have you describe an 11 dimensional universe .

I suspect that it is difficult or else the "pop" writers would have satisfactorily explained one by now. Is it possible that the theories could relate to our observable universe?

You can tell I have worked for the gov't too long. I always have good ideas for somebody else to do. Or things to buy me with somebody elses money.

If my reality is reliable, I'd say the center of the universe is with me.

aka

The 11 dimensional membrane theory is not needed to explain why an origin to the big bang can not be located. Its just a further complicating factor. Its the unfolding of spacetime itself that means a origin can not be modelled.

The 11 dimensions of M theory (3 space, mass, + 7 hidden). Interestingly Time and Gravity aren't in the dimension set (as gravity we theorise is simply the folding of spacetime) and some version of the time part of spacetime exists outside and across membranes.

Theory doesn't yet describe any of the 7 dimensions other than to predict they are really, really small - if they have a size component at all. M-Theory at present is trying to map the topology of 10 / 11 dimensional membranes first, test for s-particles and signs of energy leakage into these theorised other dimensions with the next generation super collider 2006 - 2007 - then figure out each dimensions characteristics.

Sorry there is nothing better to give you.

g___day, Thank you for taking the time to explain the 11 dimensions theory in language that most of us understand. It's a fascinating subject, but most of us are babes in the woods on these topics. Where is the next super collider being built? Ivaguely remember one being built in Texas, and the one at Stanford is being expanded.

At CERN in Europe, its called the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) project. It and the largest one in the USA are the big guns of high energy physics.

http://www.science.doe.gov/hep/lhc.shtm

and an excellent overview about why higher energy colliders want to study Mass

http://www.globaltechnoscan.com/31jan-6feb/particle.htm


Related info:

Interaction and classicafion of standard particles

http://particleadventure.org/particleadventure/frameless/chart_cutouts/particle_chart.jpg

Theorised origin of Universe after big bang

http://particleadventure.org/particleadventure/frameless/chart_cutouts/universe_original.jpg

Interaction of particles

http://particleadventure.org/particleadventure/frameless/chart_cutouts/forces.jpg

Overview of the Language of High Energy Physics

http://www.fnal.gov/pub/ferminews/ahep.html

* * *

From http://www.globaltechnoscan.com/31jan-6feb/particle.htm

The most important enigma facing particle physicists today concerns mass. While the concept of mass may well appear so fundamental that it should be beyond question, particle physics has thrown up many puzzling questions about the nature of mass, questions which are not answered by the Standard Model. For instance, unlike the chemical elements, the fundamental particles in physics show no regularity in their masses. The tau lepton is some 17 times heavier than the muon, and 3491 times heavier than the electron. Other, similarly mysterious ratios are found among quarks, while neutrinos may even be massless. The Standard Model is unable to explain these masses, and a major task for particle physicists is to uncover the origin of mass. Is there some underlying reason why quarks and leptons have their particular masses? Why do these masses vary so much, and why do some particles have mass while others are massless?

The present 'answer' to these questions is provided by the subtle 'Higgs' mechanism which suggests that particles acquire mass by interacting with a force field, the Higgs field, which is everywhere present. The discovery of an associated particle or particles, the Higgs boson(s), would be evidence for this field. No sign of Higgs particles has yet been seen, but calculations based on the Standard Model suggest something has to show up when quark energies reach the TeV scale. This is exactly the energy range which the LHC has been designed to explore and whatever the Higgs mechanism is, the LHC will surely reveal it, opening up an entirely new era in our understanding of Nature.

Finding the solution to the mystery of mass is not the only discovery within the LHC's reach. Perhaps the most dramatic is a question which has been posed by cosmologists rather than particle physicists - "What does space contain?" Astronomical observations show that there is more matter in existence than has yet been seen. Shining objects such as the Earth, all of the planets and all of the stars only add up to about one tenth of existing matter. The other nine-tenths we call 'Dark Matter'. One explanation for Dark Matter envisages the existence of stable, as yet undiscovered, particles and the most recent results from LEP suggest that a new family of particles may exist at precisely the energy which the LHC will explore. The discovery of these new, 'supersymmetric' particles could explain what the vast majority of our Universe is made of.

Another fundamental question posed by cosmologists is "Why does the matter in the Universe exist?" At the time of the Big Bang, matter and antimatter should have been produced in identical amounts. The Universe should then have had a very short life, because these two different sorts of particles annihilate each other. Nonetheless, the Universe has survived as predominantly matter. In the 1960s, Soviet theorist Andrei Sakharov formulated an explanation for the dominance of matter over antimatter, based on a small asymmetry in the behaviour of matter and anti-matter particles. In 1973, Japanese theoreticians showed that a Universe made up of three families of quarks and leptons could satisfy Sakharov's requirements. The subsequent confirmation at CERN of the existence of exactly three matter particle families suggests that this theory may be the right approach to explaining the present state of the Universe. There is still an enormous amount of work to be done on this subject and the LHC will be the perfect tool to allow physicists to examine this asymmetry of matter and antimatter by detailed studies of the behaviour of the quark known as the beauty quark. This is the question which will be addressed by the LHCb detector.

g__day, Thanks,

I am going to look at the links that you have so thoughtfully provided. I'll be back. ( I hope I can get some sleep tonight)

You're welcome guys. Remember these are all theories to try and understand how the Universe and reality work or appear to work - and fit models with observations.

If we are ever to explore space we really need to travel much faster than light. One possibility is a more complete and developed framework of science where this is possible. To set up such a framework requires alot of thought, experiment and verification.

With high energy colliders, theoretical physicists are searching for answers. Its like blind men exploring and finding a tent - and they want to know what is inside. At first they feel and try to work out the shape and characteristics of the tent (topology) then they ponder how to explore inside. This is what is happening with theoretical physics and high energy colliders. We have many models, the models predict certain things, observing these things or their absence modifies scientist's acceptance of the competing theories and focuses where the effort goes next.

Super-string symmetry theory predicts s-particles or symmetric complements to regular atomic particles: a s-proton, s-neutron, s-electron etc. These particles have higher predicted mass/energy then their normal counterparts - to observe them you need much higher energy particle collisions and much better detectors - this is partly about what LHC is about. LHC can operate at this new level of energy to check more of what our reality is.

With M-theory and super-string theory extra dimensions (10 or 11, depending on which of 5 models or how they interact) are espoused. Theoretical physicists suppose that if you have a high energy collision possibly some energy will leak into these more hidden dimension and such leakage will be detactable - indirectly verifying the existence and possible some of the properties of these dimensions, which will lead to further refinement of models and testing. The higher the energy of the collision the greater chance leakage will occur and be detectable - another goal for LHC.

If no leakage is detected it's back to the theoretical models to ponder more options.

Nice links. :wink:

g__day, Is it possible that we may some day learn about the origins of planets and animals, and poo-poo all religious' claims about "creationism?"

LOL - I love a person who loves to dream :wink:

Where is the center of the universe? Please look at my avatar...in my world, that is the center of the universe..... :wink:

I believe that the center of the universe lies somewhere in our imagination. Wherever you want it to be that is where the center lies.

If there is no known boundary then the center of the Universe is fictional. Perhaps our Universe is toroidal in a three-dimensional space envelope, in which case it keeps coming back round on itself!

The center of the universe is the middle of infinity.

Hello CI.

Infinity? How can you tell?

That, dear sir, is the 64 million dollar question.

the center of "the universe" is the letter 'i' people, and that's as good an answer as any here so far hehe

The center of the universe is the half way point between "a" and "b."