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What is Evangelism?

 
 
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2018 03:31 pm
@brianjakub,
Stupidity is the opposite of intelligence...

There are some stupid people who think being stupid is also intelligent.

Smile

I think it was Ralph Waldo Emerson who wrote something to the effect that, "To be misunderstood is to be genius."

Sometimes, being misunderstood is being stupid. It takes someone who is genius to know the difference.

There are varying levels and degrees to intelligence all the way up from fools to sages...

Fools have no intelligence whatsoever...
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2018 04:33 pm
@TheCobbler,
Fools can have intelligence. What they lack is wisdom to discern the truth.
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2018 05:52 pm
@brianjakub,
Just because the lights are on does not mean there is someone home...
0 Replies
 
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2018 09:05 pm
An intelligent design would be to create a garden and put all manner of creatures and plants in it, allow autonomous will for the human centerpiece, and do this all in seven days... An unintelligent design would be to have everything begin with chemicals and have all manner of apparitions of life evolve and become extinct until out of such chaos came humanity struggling to survive.

An unintelligent design would have humanity at the 11th hour come into being and struggle for hundreds of thousands of years as lesser life forms until they split off from apes into quasi intelligent beings.

An intelligent design would not have us born out of the womb and have to learn to walk only to die a few years later decrepit and senile.

No, an intelligent creator would have an offspring that is sentient from day one and would sustain on through eternity, world without end...

An intelligent design would not have created beings who war against each other through racism and petty plays for power. An intelligent design would fulfill all need so there is no reason for greed.

An intelligent design would not have sin placed inherently within but would have goodness and innocence as the only model of practice.

An unintelligent design needs fables to placate those who are so fearful because they cannot grasp the idea of being alone in this universe.

As unintelligent our actual "evolution" in this world is, as inconvenient the truth is of our humble and simple beginnings, it is the only design we have.

Books will be written to try and obliterate our crude and meager past, they may try and interject some kind of intelligence into this beginning but in reality our evolution is based upon a simple rock floating around a sun with a moon and finite resources with which to survive.

Geometry may seem like intelligence but it is merely the only logic that can explain a physical existence. Any physical existence would rely on the universal language of geometry. This is why suns are round and not square.

It is intelligence that creates square suns... (just ask the Borg) Smile
0 Replies
 
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 May, 2018 05:18 pm
Catholic diocese parts ways with Maine Council of Churches
Bishop Robert Deeley says the council's decision to take public stands based on majority votes by its members, rather than unanimous agreement, could leave the diocese supporting positions not grounded in the teachings of the church.


BY GILLIAN GRAHAMSTAFF WRITER

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The Roman Catholic Diocese of Portland has withdrawn as a member of the Maine Council of Churches over a recent change in how the council decides to take public stands on issues, including those affecting the LGBTQ community.

The council in February voted to end an unwritten policy that the council would not take public stands on issues unless all eight member denominations agreed. The council will now take positions based on a majority vote, said Rev. Jane Field, executive director of the council.

The Maine Council of Churches, founded in 1938, is active on social justice issues and advocates for legislation in Augusta. The Diocese of Portland has been a member since 1982.

Field characterized the decision by Bishop Robert Deeley as “fairly significant” because the Catholic church is a large denomination in Maine and also because it’s extremely uncommon to have a Roman Catholic diocese participate in a council of churches. The Catholic church is involved in councils in only four states and is not a member of the National Council of Churches, she said.

“This is the sad day for the council,” Field said.

In a letter to the president of the Maine Council of Churches Board, Deeley said he did not take the decision to leave the council “lightly or happily,” but could not continue as a member once the board decided positions on issues would be decided by a majority vote.


“As the Bishop of the Diocese I find this unfortunate, but I see no alternative. Our continuing participation could result in me advocating for two different, and even contradictory, positions,” Deeley wrote to Bonny Rodden. “What I advocate for cannot be simply determined by a majority vote. It is expected that my advocacy is grounded in the teachings of the Church. Any other position would be contrary to my responsibility as the bishop of Portland.”

The diocese will officially end its membership with the council on June 30.

Deacon Dan Sheriden, the diocese’s representative to the council, did not immediately respond to a request for comment Tuesday.

The decision to adopt Robert’s Rules of Order followed a 20-month process of examining how decisions are made. Field said that during the marriage equality battle several years ago, a decision was made that the council would stay silent on the issue “in order to keep everyone at the table” when there wasn’t unanimity among members. Over time, that practice did not sit well with members who felt it was unacceptable not to take a stand on important issues.

“There were lots of times there wasn’t a majority vote, but nobody fussed. When it came to certain areas, in particular issues affecting the LGBTQ community, they would invoke this practice (of staying silent),” Field said. “The tension there became so difficult.”

Field said the council tried to involve Deeley in the process leading up to the change, but he instead sent representatives to talk to the council. Field and the council board sent a letter to Deeley in an effort to “leave the door open” and avoid a complete rupture of the relationship between the council and diocese.

“There’s a deep sadness, but at the same time, I feel the council still has a vital role to play in the state,” she said. “I believe we will find ourselves side by side with the diocese on certain issues like hunger and human trafficking.”

Deeley, in his letter to the council of churches, said the diocese will continue to advocate for the concerns which are the mandate of the gospel.

“As we do with the many activities of our parish communities and, of course, the tremendous good done by Catholic Charities, we will be working to serve the needs of the poor, the disadvantaged and the migrants among us, and keep before the people of our state the need to serve the common good through our care for one another,” he wrote.

Field said it is unusual, but not unheard of, for a denomination to leave the Maine Council of Churches. Years ago, the Baptists left the council when Unitarian Universalists were accepted as members, she said.

Comment: Someone please help me understand this article...

Is the Catholic Diocese leaving the council because they want to be more outspoken politically against LGBTQ rights?

Or does the Catholic church think that a majority rule might force them to oppose LGBTQ rights?
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2018 12:29 pm
@TheCobbler,
Quote:
Comment: Someone please help me understand this article...

Is the Catholic Diocese leaving the council because they want to be more outspoken politically against LGBTQ rights?

Or does the Catholic church think that a majority rule might force them to oppose LGBTQ rights?


The catholic church Recognizes the right of LGBT people the same as any other person. The church views all people the same, "as male and female children of God."

They also recognize marriage as defined by God is in the catechism.
Quote:
ARTICLE 7
THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY

1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."84

I. MARRIAGE IN GOD'S PLAN

1602 Sacred Scripture begins with the creation of man and woman in the image and likeness of God and concludes with a vision of "the wedding-feast of the Lamb."85 Scripture speaks throughout of marriage and its "mystery," its institution and the meaning God has given it, its origin and its end, its various realizations throughout the history of salvation, the difficulties arising from sin and its renewal "in the Lord" in the New Covenant of Christ and the Church.86

Marriage in the order of creation

1603 "The intimate community of life and love which constitutes the married state has been established by the Creator and endowed by him with its own proper laws. . . . God himself is the author of marriage."87 The vocation to marriage is written in the very nature of man and woman as they came from the hand of the Creator. Marriage is not a purely human institution despite the many variations it may have undergone through the centuries in different cultures, social structures, and spiritual attitudes. These differences should not cause us to forget its common and permanent characteristics. Although the dignity of this institution is not transparent everywhere with the same clarity,88 some sense of the greatness of the matrimonial union exists in all cultures. "The well-being of the individual person and of both human and Christian society is closely bound up with the healthy state of conjugal and family life."89

1604 God who created man out of love also calls him to love the fundamental and innate vocation of every human being. For man is created in the image and likeness of God who is himself love.90 Since God created him man and woman, their mutual love becomes an image of the absolute and unfailing love with which God loves man. It is good, very good, in the Creator's eyes. And this love which God blesses is intended to be fruitful and to be realized in the common work of watching over creation: "And God blessed them, and God said to them: 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it.'"91

1605 Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another: "It is not good that the man should be alone."92 The woman, "flesh of his flesh," his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a "helpmate"; she thus represents God from whom comes our help.93 "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."94 The Lord himself shows that this signifies an unbreakable union of their two lives by recalling what the plan of the Creator had been "in the beginning": "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."95

Marriage under the regime of sin

1606 Every man experiences evil around him and within himself. This experience makes itself felt in the relationships between man and woman. Their union has always been threatened by discord, a spirit of domination, infidelity, jealousy, and conflicts that can escalate into hatred and separation. This disorder can manifest itself more or less acutely, and can be more or less overcome according to the circumstances of cultures, eras, and individuals, but it does seem to have a universal character.

1607 According to faith the disorder we notice so painfully does not stem from the nature of man and woman, nor from the nature of their relations, but from sin. As a break with God, the first sin had for its first consequence the rupture of the original communion between man and woman. Their relations were distorted by mutual recriminations;96 their mutual attraction, the Creator's own gift, changed into a relationship of domination and lust;97 and the beautiful vocation of man and woman to be fruitful, multiply, and subdue the earth was burdened by the pain of childbirth and the toil of work.98

1608 Nevertheless, the order of creation persists, though seriously disturbed. To heal the wounds of sin, man and woman need the help of the grace that God in his infinite mercy never refuses them.99 Without his help man and woman cannot achieve the union of their lives for which God created them "in the beginning."


As the catechism says (and was the practice of all Christian denominations and encoded in law in this county until recently) a marriage was between a man and a woman and was not valid if it was not consummated.

Quote:
con·sum·mate
verb
past tense: consummated; past participle: consummated
ˈkänsəˌmāt/Submit
make (a marriage or relationship) complete by having sexual intercourse.
"his first wife refused to consummate their marriage"
complete (a transaction or attempt); make perfect.
"his scheme of colonization was consummated through bloodshed"
synonyms: complete, conclude, finish, accomplish, achieve; More


So, by the definition of marriage according to God, a marriage is not valid unless sexual intercourse with the intention of conceiving is part of the physical requirements that must be performed for a valid marriage to exist. People of the same sex or opposite sex who cannot perform the necessary physical act to make a marriage valid are not married until they do perform the act.

The church is not against LGBT rights, they just can't change God's physical requirements that He said are necessary to make a marriage valid which are the same for everybody no matter what their sexual preference is.

And as it says in 1608
Quote:
Nevertheless, the order of creation persists, though seriously disturbed. To heal the wounds of sin, man and woman need the help of the grace that God in his infinite mercy never refuses them.99 Without his help man and woman cannot achieve the union of their lives for which God created them "in the beginning."
the church must promote the order God intended and help people overcome the wounds of sin in a loving way viewing each person as a child of God living in a fallen body.
TheCobbler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2018 09:33 pm
Teacher Says He Was Forced To Quit Over School’s Transgender Student Policy
Former Indiana orchestra teacher John Kluge says addressing trans students by their preferred names is a “dangerous” violation of his religious beliefs.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/indiana-teacher-transgender-school-policy_us_5b17f162e4b0599bc6df3caf

Comment:
Can you believe this man was ever hired as a teacher in the first place?


0 Replies
 
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2018 09:35 pm
@brianjakub,
All of the male clergy "married to God " may beg to differ...
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2018 12:47 am
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:
They also recognize marriage as defined by God is in the catechism.


None of it was defined by God. It was defined by men claiming to speak for God.
brianjakub
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2018 10:19 am
@izzythepush,
The natural world that the perfect God created with His Living Word (that man is an integral and intelligent part of) revealed what a perfect marriage was,”a perfect union for man and woman to experience pleasure and love through procreation.” Fortunately God allowed for a spirit of freedom and evil chose to corrupt the perfection by enticing man to permanately alter and pervert the perfection leading to death. But, also providing a way back to perfection by converting back to his spirit of perfection in preparation for the day when He will personally restablish the perfection physically by eliminating death and evil for and in all who believe He will through a process that was initiated by his death and resurrection. An event that can be historically verified and logically fits with what we are experiencing.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2018 10:29 am
@brianjakub,
That's just a myth written by men who presumed to talk for God. It's clearly horseshit otherwise there wouldn't be so many same sex relationships that are stable and loving, and endure.

It just a way of legitimising bigotry. Why would a loving god make some people gay only to then come down on it, it doesn't make sense.

Jesus summed everything up as love thy neighbour, and your screed does the exact opposite by denying your gay neighbours the same marriage rights you enjoy.
brianjakub
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2018 03:09 pm
@izzythepush,
Our bodies are not myths. They were created to tell and experience a perfect story that now has some imperfections in it because of evil. I have my own demons to fight. We all do. We don’t have to physically submit to them (though at times the urge to seems insurmountable and that is when we pray for the grace of God to intercede so together we can control our sinful nature).

I am not a bigot, just a believer in objective truth as.

Marriage by definition is an act of procreation with consumption a necessary part of it. I am not saying gay people can’t have loving relationships and raise families, it just does not fit the historical definition of marriage. You are creating a new dictionary. I think if you want to try something new it should invent new words instead of changing the meaning of words that already had an objectively accepted definition.

Jesus accepted the Jewish definition of marriage and since He was the Truth, the Light and the Living Word of God that made his definition objective not bigoted.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2018 12:35 am
@brianjakub,
If you deny other people the same rights you enjoy then you are a bigot. Defining homosexuality as a demon which needs to be fought instead of just one of the variants of the human condition is another manifestation of your bigotry.

You're just trying to justify it.
brianjakub
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2018 10:24 am
@izzythepush,
Homosexuality is not a demon. A demon is a spiritual person that chose to disobey God. Homosexuality is the decision to act upon an urge to have sex with people that are the same sex as you are. Homosexuality is not a person.

Jesus defined what Marriage is. I believe he is smarter than me. I am not telling homosexuals how to live their life. I just don't Think a nation that based it's government on the meaning of words that are written in the Constitution and laws should change the meaning of those words in the middle of a game by judicial tyranny. The founders set up a way to make major changes to the meaning of the Constitution Called, "the constitutional amendment process." But if you don't think this requires a constitutional amendment it should at least be voted on by the public and not changed by judges.

But I have no problem with you thinking Jesus is a bigot.

I have no problem with you deciding not to use him as a pattern for deciding what is good and what is bad. There was a time when most people agreed we should use him as a pattern for determining what is good and bad. Maybe that time has past. Fortunately the discussion never will
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2018 10:38 am
@brianjakub,
You're playing semantics, truth is you're using a pejorative term to describe something you don't approve of. What people get up to in their own bedrooms is nobody's business but their own. If they're not hurting anyone there's no problem.

What you're saying does hurt, and that makes it a problem for anyone wanting to live in a decent society.

You're twisting my words. Jesus, (if he even existed,) never said anything about homosexuality, the bigots came later.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2018 10:47 am
@izzythepush,
When have i ever mentioned bedrooms? I was just saying words mean things and definitions of words should not be chnged by the court sytem. What does that have to do with bedrooms or how people choose t live their lives? What other words do you think judges should change the meaning of? Maybe we should change the meanig of marriage to include any committed people living in the same house that want there relationship legally recognized. Why was Marriage defined the way it was in the first place.?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2018 11:22 am
@brianjakub,
Definitions of words change all the time, it's the nature of language. The Bible was never the sole, or even the first definer of marriage. If the word in question has legal status then it's down to courts and governments to redefine terms so they match society's.

An RE teacher I used to work with said the problem most religions have is they do not take time into account. Some basic truths are eternal, but other things change with time.

Look at the tale of the Good Samaritan, now Jesus would be called racist for even suggesting there was something unusual about a Samaritan being good.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jun, 2018 12:25 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The bible was never the sole, or even the first definer of marriage.


That line in the Bible is from oral and written traditions that had been handed down from God to mankind long before the Bible was compiled by the Jewish nation. It fits with the way that men and women appear to be logically designed for a specific purpose both physically and intellectually. You are providing an argument for intellectual attraction but marriage “by definition” is also a physical act of procreation. That definition is historical and logically real when one considers the design of the human body and how they are made to procreate, nurse the young, and survive in a hostile environment as a family.

Quote:
If the word in question has legal status then it’s down to the courts and governments to determine terms so they match society’s.


Each branch of government has a different purpose. The court cannot change the meaning of words. Their job is to determine what writers of the constitution and the laws that must follow the constitution meant when, determining the meaning of the words when the founders wrote them. that is why precedent and original intent are so important when the Supreme Court makes a decision. If that was not so, over time any subsequent generation (or individual judge) could change the meaning and intent of the constitution or any law. That does bode well if your goal as a governed people is, “a stable and just system of laws that exists to consistently and justly promote good and punish evil”.

The branch of the government that redefinines terms to match society’s is the legislative branch. They can do it two ways. By, legislating a new definition of marriage like many states did. Or, by constitutional amendment like, when the constitution was amended to end slavery or give women the right to vote. Those changes were introduced through the legislative body as a constitutional amendments because, major changes were being made to societies definition of words like “African American man” as being a lesser man than any other man and “Women” having less legal voting rights as men.

Can you imagine a way that a judge could change the meaning of a word that might seriously infringe on your rights? I can. I have seen it happen in this country in my lifetime.

Quote:
now Jesus would be called a racist for even suggesting there was something unusual about a Samaritan being good.


God had a unique purpose for the Jewish nation and so he set them apart from all other nations.

That plan was the reintroduction of his universal plan of salvation and everlasting life to the human race both, intellectually and physically through the Scripture, traditions and physical actions of Jewish prophets and ultimately, through God Himself, in the human form we know as Jesus Christ.

So, the Good Samaritan was in a nation that had separated themselves from the Jewish nation. They were not lesser people, just a people that were no longer part of the nation delivering the plan both physically and intellectually.


Human ego is a real thing. Fortunately God is big enough to make sure His plan unfolds in spite of it.

We just need to make sure we check our ego when determining the meaning of words that the Creator of the universe established.

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jun, 2018 01:23 pm
@brianjakub,
You believe it was handed down from God, I don't see any evidence that would support that conclusion.

All civilisations have had some form of marriage, the traditional Judeo Christian interpretation is just one.

Neither of us live in a Theocracy, the church does not have the final say on how society governs itself.

Words change all the time, defining what words mean is one of the main functions of the court it's called interpretation. That's why there's things called test cases.

It's not down to one religious group to foist its interpretation of a word on the rest of society.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jun, 2018 01:27 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

[ Their job is to determine what writers of the constitution and the laws that must follow the constitution meant when, determining the meaning of the words when the founders wrote them.


This sentence sums you up. We are talking generally about law, courts and their functions. Not exclusively law in America. I don't live in America, the peculiarities of American jurisprudence are irrelevant to me.

Please try to remember that the American legal system isn't the only one in the World.
 

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