2
   

Don't Ask, Don't Think (by Richard Cohen)

 
 
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 07:26 am
In one of those itsy-bitsy items you're likely to miss, the New York Times reported last week that, since 1998, the military has discharged 20 service personnel who spoke or had studied Arabic, six from the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, Calif. They all had, in some way, been caught being gay. Try translating that into common sense.

This country, this government, this Congress and social conservatives in states both blue and red have so much invested in anti-gay policies that they will, if need be, jeopardize national security. It does not matter that Arabic interpreters are badly needed in Iraq, where they could save lives. What matters more -- what is downright paramount -- is that no gays get into the military or, if they do, that they stay deep in the closet, where, of course, they are smugly felt to belong. This is national policy.

The illogic of "don't ask, don't tell" can produce a pounding headache in any thinking person, but it is not without precedent. In the McCarthy era, the government rid itself of some Asian experts because their patriotism and, in some cases, their masculinity, was in doubt. This ill-prepared us for the coming crisis in Vietnam -- never mind what it unfairly did to the people involved -- plunging the United States into a civil war it little understood if only because the people who did had been purged from government service.

I sit in uncomprehending awe of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. I was a military man myself, if basic and advanced training in the combat engineers count for anything, and therefore I lived in barracks with gays. That's a statistical certainty. Later in life I belonged to several health clubs where, statistics aside, I damn well knew that many of the members were gay. In all that time, I had not a single uncomfortable moment. This is not something that, for instance, women at West Point and the Air Force Academy could say. In both military institutions, women have been molested and even raped. Yet no one suggests getting rid of women . . . or men -- just making the system work. This should be the rule with heterosexuals and homosexuals as well.

Fat chance, though. Homophobia has become entrenched because gays have become the personification of modernity, particularly changing sexual mores. So much of cultural conservatism has to do with sex -- abortion, marriage, sex education, celibacy -- that it makes sense that those who are the most outré, the greatest taboo breakers of them all, are the most loathed. This is why it is important for social conservatives to insist that homosexuality is a choice -- a casual one, at that -- and not something determined at birth or shortly thereafter. That valuable piece of ignorance justifies homophobia since, in America, you can no longer hate what someone is, only what they have become. The element of choice is as essential as it is fictitious.

In the many reviews I've read of the new book claiming Abraham Lincoln was gay, the same disclaimer appears over and over again: It wouldn't matter if he was. I take this as an affirmation of historic truth -- the slaves would still have been freed, the Civil War both fought and won -- but also as an assertion of blasé tolerance: Who cares? It wouldn't change a thing.

But these reviewers are right in a way I don't think they intended. Even if Lincoln had been gay, even if the book "The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln" by C.A. Tripp had received mostly respectful reviews instead of general dismissal, it still would not matter. America would be as reluctant to face the prospect that one of its greatest presidents was gay as it once was to acknowledge that Thomas Jefferson fathered a child with one of his slaves, Sally Hemings. It would be dismissed, belittled -- treated in the conservative community much as evolution is today. Facts do not matter when faith is at stake. Fire the gay linguists.

Inshallah!


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16721-2005Jan17.html
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 3,482 • Replies: 53
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:02 am
As usual, you are shortsighted in your opinion as is the author.

As a vet, I can agree with the ban of homosexuals from the service, or at least, from the "front lines".

(Feel free to insert whatever "phobes" you like)

Many times, military life is lonely especially in the Navy where I served. Spending months at sea the LAST thing I wanted to deal with in the "macho" world of male dominated military life, is some "known" homosexual looking at me.

This is a concept you will never EVER be able to understand.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:03 am
Quote:
Fire the gay linguists.

We only want cunning linguists in the military.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:05 am
woiyo wrote:
...the LAST thing I wanted to deal with in the "macho" world of male dominated military life, is some "known" homosexual looking at me.

You only want "unknown" homosexuals looking at you? This is the attitude that baffles me...
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:06 am
The part I do get is that "known" homosexuals would be at risk for being victims of violent crimes.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:11 am
woiyo- When you were in the service, did you have any problems with dealing with the females who worked with you?

IMO, one of the most important things for our national security is to have Arabic interpreters, who know the language, and understand the culture.

I am also a big believer in the old saying, "You don't sh!t where you eat". Affairs, either of the hetero or homo kind, IMO, is not appropriate while conducting the business of war. If a person can maintain those boundries, I cannot see where there would be any problem with having a gay on a ship with you. If a person is so intimidated by the gay's presence, I believe that it is HIS problem, not the homosexual's.

graffiti- I absolutely agree with you. We are speaking now not only of human rights, but national security!
0 Replies
 
urs53
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:12 am
Phoenix, I completely agree.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:17 am
"It does not matter that Arabic interpreters are badly needed in Iraq, where they could save lives."

I would ask what data is being used to make this assertion. Is there any? Has the military said they are in bad need of interpretors?

I don't know. I am only asking because I hate it when anyone makes a claim without any basis of fact. If this is the case (and I am not doubting per se that it is) then why does the author not give us where this info he purports to be true is coming from?

Just an observation on my part.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:20 am
woiyo wrote:
As usual, you are shortsighted in your opinion as is the author.


For you to accuse Graffiti of being shortsighted, Woiyo...is like having a wart hog accuse a kitten of being an ugly animal.


Quote:
As a vet, I can agree with the ban of homosexuals from the service, or at least, from the "front lines".


The "as a vet" part of that sentence is a non sequitur.

I understand that you want to ban homosexuals from service...or at least, from the 'front times'...but that has much less to do with the fact that you are a 'vet'...than it does with the fact that you are a shortsighted homophobe.


Quote:
(Feel free to insert whatever "phobes" you like)


Thank you for inviting it. I did so...and was able to do it without worries about the TOS since you asked that it be done.

You are a shortsighted homophobe. (There! I did it again.)


Quote:
Many times, military life is lonely especially in the Navy where I served. Spending months at sea the LAST thing I wanted to deal with in the "macho" world of male dominated military life, is some "known" homosexual looking at me.



Why?

Were you worried that they wouldn't find you attractive?


Quote:
This is a concept you will never EVER be able to understand.


As a friend and someone who really cares about you, Woiyo...let me say to you that you should not concern yourself with what others "will never EVER be able to understand." There is so much you don't understand...that all of your time ought be devoted to working on that.

By the way...I am a veteran myself.



Excellent presentation, Graffiti!
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:21 am
CoastalRat wrote:
Has the military said they are in bad need of interpretors?

Yes. Many times.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:24 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Many times, military life is lonely especially in the Navy where I served. Spending months at sea the LAST thing I wanted to deal with in the "macho" world of male dominated military life, is some "known" homosexual looking at me.

Why?

Were you worried that they wouldn't find you attractive?


Mine was "why, were you worried that you wouldn't be able to resist temptation?" But I took the high road (until now) and didn't post it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:24 am
CoastalRat wrote:
"It does not matter that Arabic interpreters are badly needed in Iraq, where they could save lives."

I would ask what data is being used to make this assertion. Is there any? Has the military said they are in bad need of interpretors?

I don't know. I am only asking because I hate it when anyone makes a claim without any basis of fact. If this is the case (and I am not doubting per se that it is) then why does the author not give us where this info he purports to be true is coming from?

Just an observation on my part.


The newspapers have had many, many articles about the pressing need for Arabic interpreters in the military...and in the diplomatic corps.

I don't have a citation for you immediately at hand...but I have seen dozens of stories and comments about the need in the press and on television during the last year or so.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:25 am
DrewDad wrote:
CoastalRat wrote:
Has the military said they are in bad need of interpretors?

Yes. Many times.


Then I have missed it, which is possible. Can you point me somewhere as proof? Not that I don't believe you, but quite frankly, your assertion hold no more water to me than assertions made by Frank, Woiyo, Graffiti or anyone else making claims without proof to back up their own point of view. Just as I am sure my claims would have you demanding proof. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:26 am
DrewDad wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Many times, military life is lonely especially in the Navy where I served. Spending months at sea the LAST thing I wanted to deal with in the "macho" world of male dominated military life, is some "known" homosexual looking at me.

Why?

Were you worried that they wouldn't find you attractive?


Mine was "why, were you worried that you wouldn't be able to resist temptation?" But I took the high road (until now) and didn't post it.


If you take the high road with Woiyo...you'll miss him completely. He ain't there.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:26 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
woiyo- When you were in the service, did you have any problems with dealing with the females who worked with you?

IMO, one of the most important things for our national security is to have Arabic interpreters, who know the language, and understand the culture.

I am also a big believer in the old saying, "You don't sh!t where you eat". Affairs, either of the hetero or homo kind, IMO, is not appropriate while conducting the business of war. If a person can maintain those boundries, I cannot see where there would be any problem with having a gay on a ship with you. If a person is so intimidated by the gay's presence, I believe that it is HIS problem, not the homosexual's.

graffiti- I absolutely agree with you. We are speaking now not only of human rights, but national security!


No problems with women since there were note many at that time and when by chance you did work with them, "you knew" what you were dealing with. same as when you "bunk" with the "fellas" you knew what you were dealing with.

I agree with your "colorful" saying. However. if a homesexual can not "curb" their desires, like I was able to "curb my desires", whay is it my problem? The don't ask, dont tell can work if the homosexual could "curb their desire".
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:28 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
CoastalRat wrote:
"It does not matter that Arabic interpreters are badly needed in Iraq, where they could save lives."

I would ask what data is being used to make this assertion. Is there any? Has the military said they are in bad need of interpretors?

I don't know. I am only asking because I hate it when anyone makes a claim without any basis of fact. If this is the case (and I am not doubting per se that it is) then why does the author not give us where this info he purports to be true is coming from?

Just an observation on my part.


The newspapers have had many, many articles about the pressing need for Arabic interpreters in the military...and in the diplomatic corps.

I don't have a citation for you immediately at hand...but I have seen dozens of stories and comments about the need in the press and on television during the last year or so.


Hey Frank, I will see if I can find anything for my own info. Again, not doubting you or anything, I just like seeing things for myself. We may disagree quite often, but I've never known you to outright lie about this type of thing.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:31 am
Woiyo, are you saying you don't think homosexuals can "curb their desires" while doing their jobs?

I'm just curious.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:31 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
woiyo wrote:
As usual, you are shortsighted in your opinion as is the author.


For you to accuse Graffiti of being shortsighted, Woiyo...is like having a wart hog accuse a kitten of being an ugly animal.


Quote:
As a vet, I can agree with the ban of homosexuals from the service, or at least, from the "front lines".


The "as a vet" part of that sentence is a non sequitur.

I understand that you want to ban homosexuals from service...or at least, from the 'front times'...but that has much less to do with the fact that you are a 'vet'...than it does with the fact that you are a shortsighted homophobe.


Quote:
(Feel free to insert whatever "phobes" you like)


Thank you for inviting it. I did so...and was able to do it without worries about the TOS since you asked that it be done.

You are a shortsighted homophobe. (There! I did it again.)


Quote:
Many times, military life is lonely especially in the Navy where I served. Spending months at sea the LAST thing I wanted to deal with in the "macho" world of male dominated military life, is some "known" homosexual looking at me.



Why?

Were you worried that they wouldn't find you attractive?


Quote:
This is a concept you will never EVER be able to understand.


As a friend and someone who really cares about you, Woiyo...let me say to you that you should not concern yourself with what others "will never EVER be able to understand." There is so much you don't understand...that all of your time ought be devoted to working on that.

By the way...I am a veteran myself.



Excellent presentation, Graffiti!


Gottcha Frankie Boy...hook, line and sinker!!! You are so easy!
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:34 am
CoastalRat wrote:
Woiyo, are you saying you don't think homosexuals can "curb their desires" while doing their jobs?

I'm just curious.


When you spend 6 months at sea, to steal from Eddie Murphy, you get hard when the wind blows.

So yes, it is possible and it is best to avoid the confrontation that will likely result in a problem for the homosexual.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 08:40 am
Quote:
However. if a homesexual can not "curb" their desires, like I was able to "curb my desires",


That is quite an assumption, woiyo. Why do you think that YOU can curb YOUR desires, and a homosexual, can't?
0 Replies
 
 

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