Less Expensive Frames R Us?

it's a personal thing but i just hate - with a passion - those Baroque mouldings. They are mainly only used by amateur artists here - you wouldn't see them in a good contemporary gallery. I've always disliked them on Impressionist works - they simply look wrong to me. I have noticed that American sites do seem to like them.

They're still favored by museum curators on old masters although it's usually a restoration of the original framing. They don't bother me on something very romantic or classic and even a Van Gogh. Of course, they can look tacky on a mediocre floral print because it's too obviously pretentious. I'm not sure what you mean by "American sites do seem to like them." I've done some extensive restoration on antique Baroque frames and it isn't easy. I'd rather restore a painting.

One detail I'd like to know before advising JamesMorrison on framing his print is: how much sunlight might there be where it is to be hung? If there is considerable sun--even ambient, not direct--it may be necessary to figure in the cost of cutting down on the UV that strikes the surface of the artwork. When my wife and I purchase a watercolor, photograph, or print--even if it's going to see minimal sunlight--I always grit my teeth and pay for UV glass, which seems, even over extended periods of time, to offer good protection against fading.

A piece of UV glass of the size JM is facing, would be a large expense--and, as has been pointed out, very heavy. And, yes, if it did fall and break, the print might be gouged. Also, this much heft will dictate a certain frame design that can take the stress, and hanging the whole bit solidly may be tricky.

I have had no experience with plexiglass, because we don't own a paper work any more than half the size of JM's. Perhaps, LW, you will know--is there good UV plexiglas, and is a piece this size as brutally expensive as UV glass would be. Or do you, with your extensive background, have a better idea for protecting this work from fading?

When it comes to frames, I agree heartily with Vivien: go with a simple frame that let's the work speak clearly for itself. I have seen some heavy and ornate frames that work well--but these were designed by the artists themselves as part of specific works. When I worked at what is now called the Smithsonian Museum of American Art, the curators were slowly freeing the best American Impressionist works from their ornate 19th-century frames--and the simpler frames, which echoed the earlier styles, were, to my eye, much friendlier to the art. The museum hired its own framer and gilder, which saved a lot of money in the long run. I guess the message there is deal as locally as you can; you can take the art into the custom framer for discussion (I learn something on every visit to such a framer). Also, you'll save on transportation costs--sometimes hugely.

Another possibility, JM, is that, if you are handy with mitre saws, etc., you can save yourself even more. Very finicky work--but not so bad with simple moldings.

Actually, plexiglass has light piping second surface internal refraction that bounces back most of the UV unless it's coming straight onto the piece. Glass does not have this property except at a 90 deg. angle. If you have a piece of art hung near a window and there is an outside white fence or wall, it could be a problem. Of course, never hangany art where it gets any direct sunlight, even very early morning or afternoon. Halogen lamps have a small trace of UV so the glass faced UV block MR16's are the best. PAR lamps are higher in UV. Just beware of cheap Halogen lamps as they are higher in UV. Of course, art should never be hung under flourescent light which has a lot of UV.

The real antique Baroque frames in museum paintings are usually a beautiful work in themselves and rarely bother me on even on a gentle Monet. At the Getty, the room where these are hung have a background that tends to make the ornate frames recede. There's one Monet painting of the Rheims cathedral facade and it looks quite striking in its Baroque frame. It's quite near the famous Van Gogh "Irises," also in a Baroque frame. In the late afternoon when they are still illuminated only by the skylights, it's better than at night with the Halogen spots up full.

I cannot believe all the good advice I have received here and all there is to consider! Thanks to all.

I have visited the site portal star recommended and it looks promising. Lots of frames and different widths but the down side is that they offer no matting for this size print, however, I can get up to 5 inch widths in frames and some of these are quite nice. In addition you can upload the print image into the frame put in the dimensions and get an idea of how the frame might look with the print. All this seems like the print and frame present as overbearingly large but it will be positioned in a large 14' x 20' room with a vaulted ceiling of at least 14" over a fireplace mantel. My Wife thought I was crazy wanting such a large print but we tried a 27" x 20" print (with frame and matting that brings it out to 39" x 33" and it just looked too small for the area. UV will not be a problem since the area is the west wall of a room with northern exposure. There are no skylights so the room can actually be rather dark especially with our Northeastern winters. I'm examining artificial (incandescent) lighting options.

We used an interesting option to frame the smaller print: went searching for a pre-framed work, found one with a frame that we liked, removed the print and inserted our work in its stead. We are going to antique it (a little too gold for our taste) with a dark maroon that matches the curtains. The print was $40 and the frame cost $85, not bad.

Shortly after I posted this question I was driving down a seldom traveled road just a couple miles from my house and saw a discount framing store that must have just opened up within the last year (Discount, of course, is a relative term). So, I'm going to take Lightwizard's advice and try that out. The frame I picked out on the internet was about $189 the print $79 so if the Shoppe is not too much above this I will most definitely consider this option, given I like the frames offered. Perhaps I'll splurge for matting if not too expensive but this seems almost as expensive as the frame. I'm not complaining. I understand that those with such skills should be rewarded since the finished product can be greatly enhanced but I'm always thinking what I can otherwise purchase for such luxuries. This framing/matting stuff can cost as much as Vermont lift tickets and there is that Feb ski trip coming up...hmmm.

JM

Custom framing is very labor intensive. It's not that an operator is making thousands of the same thing. Each one is an individually crafted artisan work (okay, that was name of my framing operation in Laguna Beach in the 70's -- Artisan Frame). The really nice mouldings are expensive by-the-foot and you have naturally have some expensive waste so on a print tht size, you're ending up buying full sticks of moulding. Of course, you only invest in framing once -- I'm guessing you invest in those lift tickets several times a year for a few hours entertainment. Just trying to give you the money logic of interior design which is why it's important to select something you're entirely satisfied with.

I appreciate some extremely simple frames, some extremely ornate frames, and some slightly-unsimple frames. What matters to me is that the art and the frame work together, and that the frame not take the eye from the art but almost flow out of it.

Part of the enjoyment for me of going to museums, besides looking at the art, is looking at the art with the frames, in those rooms that have art in frames at all. I am variously appalled and pleased, with different combinations. I agree with Glight's comments on some works at the Getty, where the ornate frames fit the entirety of the room and the paintings.

I'll give a link to a catalog I like. At first glance many of the frames are rather small and rather ornate, but there are plenty of strong simple frames at the back of the catalog. I haven't looked so much at the prices as at the variety of choices.

The company is Graphik Dimensions Ltd.
www.pictureframes.com

An update:

I just got back from the discount framing outfit. Framing the pre-mentioned large print with standard double matting, a simple 4.5" frame, non- glare glass, with all hanging hardware installed on the frame, and with hardware to be self-installed into the wallboard above the mantle for 2 point hanging points, plus rear non-slip bumpers: Cost = $140!! Amazing! The final judgment is to be made in 2 weeks. If this looks good we will pull the smaller print out and have these guys do their magic on it also.

Thanks to all, and my more aesthetically tuned "better half", this will be a nice addition to my testosterone accented study/media room.

JM

Markeups on frames are sometimes staggering. Ive made most of my frames out of tiger maple.(its easier to get the wood than screw with some of these incompetent frame shops) . Im always fighting with frame shops for little things like mat corners or crappy mitering.
Its not hard to learn and I, like vivien, prefer simple , clean frames where the material speaks for itself and the frame doesnt overwhelm the painting.

The plaster gilt frames say "pre Raphealite" to me and although I love gold leaf, I dont like my frames like a sarcophagus

I just moved my studio and noticed a frame shop tucked away on a remote street. I stopped in to see if I could set up some kind of deal with the owner and WOW!

Has he ever been educating me in framing rape. I'm getting some great deals and I'm sure I'll be giving him tons of business.

Touring his shop was amazing - he has some huge national contracts so his shop is really state of the art. He has a computer that cuts his mats and can do some really amazing things. We've been brainstorming on some offerings that other studios aren't doing that we both think would sell like hotcakes.

Oh good golly I'm in frame heaven.

Awww, Ive seen one of the laser cutters and the waterjet cutters for aluminum or titanium (yes titanium frames are gonna be a next phase- just to get a little commercial in here)

Titanium frames are exorbitantly expensive. That's what they framed the Declaration of Independence and other famous American documents for the restored facility in Washington. Plasma torches are actually the new wave of techinology for cutting metal. A pop artist whose sculpture I used to sell used a plasma torch.

water jets are cleaner, no sloppy melt marks. They use water jets for hot rod billet wheels . A water jet has enough oo,ph to cut a brick and leave a shiny face

I didnt know that Ti frames were even catching on (its my main product{as an ore of course})

Actually, there is water involved with a plasma torch which is a high velocity air stream charged with plasma and a stream of water that follows the torch. It's automated and controlled by a computer program and not really safe to be near while it's cutting.

Titanium frames are really only being used for preservation by museums as it is so stable, even more so than stainless steel. Be prepared to trade in your big screen TV for one.

Im in the Ti business there wiz. Ti is no more expensive than copper rod on the spot market, today it was a bit cheaper .You may be thinking of tantalum for price I-is not a rare element and I keep finding more ore.Its so cheap tha we use it as the white base for latex paints.But it is wonderfully durable The annealed Ti frames have a beautiful irridescent chatoyancy that just does wonders for a series of black and whites.
I have a set of Emille Gruppe pencil sketches that he did in the 40s for magazine ads for Sears and Roebuck (scenes of Vt hills and stuff woodsy) and I had them framed in annealed Ti sets with UV glass. We have thm hanging next to an Amish bar quilt that has blues , reds, black and purple, just like the Ti

As far as the water jet cutters, its the same tech , just different media. I have a plasma/ powder coat guy who does powder coating of wheels for my farm implements. The results are great and the wheels dont rust in my lifetime (least not yet)

Nearly all metal frames are anodized aluminum so if you've found mouldings in titanium, copper or even brass that are not expensive that's really a find. I may be behind-the-times on the availability of metal frame mouldings as they fell out of favor in my area many years ago other than museum framing. It wasn't the cost of materials but the cost of fabrication on pure metals other than aluminum that made them expensive. Of course, I was being facetious about the cost.

Do you have a source for frame mouldings in titanium? I would be interested.

yeh, I dont sell Ti, I just mine ores.Mostly because of 9/11 Ti has been at an all time low for the pure metal. Timet and others sell barstock that has been cut into many profiles. They dont make the barstock with picture frames in mind but for other structural uses(most of whuch are airplane parts) Ill see if I cant get a stock list from a client.
Whats really expensie is ferro titatium which is made the old fashioned way .Pure Ti has been made by continuous laser casting and has dropped the prices quite an amount.
It can be cut by ordinary metal band saws and formed by breaker bars on annealed stock (which is real pretty for all the colors )

The major purveyor of metal frames in the 60's and 70's was Art Services in Los Angeles. I had many artworks framed there and at the time it was very expensive. There were always pieces being framed for museums all over the world. All the mouldings were extruded anodized aluminum. Than someone came up quickly with the metal section frame that dominates the metal frame market still today. The fact that you can make aluminum look like any other metal (the pewter was my favorite) made it an inexpensive way to frame in metal. I was just interested if someone was actually extruding a titanium metal moulding specifically for framing as I've never seen any. NOVA on PBS recently had an hour documentary on the preservation, restoration and reframing of famous American documents and I'm certain the titanium extrusions were custom made for the reframing. Please don't spend a lot of time on finding bar stock as I have a local source for the bar stock -- I just would never be willing to spend the dough to have it extruded into frame mouldings!

Just love it when you guys talk high tech. It's the functional equivalence of being REALLY drunk, not able to understand others' talk.

you should talk. I try to follow your philosophical and "how do I know that I exist?" topics and I fall off the melon truck in about 1 minute of bumpy driving.
If you can touch it, bang on it, cut it open, or see it in a microscope, gimme a call. Otherwise my stock answer for "why is there air?" is Bill Cosby"s line-to blow up volleyballs.

Dont get me wrong jl, from following your philosophical threads , My non-comprehension is at a much higher level than it used to be.