Reply
Thu 13 Jan, 2005 07:58 am
What is your response be to the Indonesian goverments order that US troops leave. They are not needed or wanted.
9.0 on ungrateful scale
Thanks for the help, but now get out,
Indonesian veep tells U.S. soldiers
BY CORKY SIEMASZKO
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Ingrates!The Indonesian government yesterday showed its appreciation to U.S. soldiers who have been risking their lives helping tsunami victims by ordering them to get out of the country by the end of March.
"Three months are enough," Vice President Jusuf Kalla told the official Antara news agency. "In fact, the sooner [they leave] the better."
Kalla's government also forced the Abraham Lincoln, from which Navy pilots have flown dozens of food supply missions to the hard-hit Aceh Province, to steam out of Indonesian waters because they refused to let U.S. pilots fly training missions in their air space.
The Indonesians also refused to let the Marines coming ashore rebuild roads, establish a base camp or carry arms.
Lynn Pascoe, the U.S. ambassador to Indonesia, reacted to Kalla's ingratitude by declaring that American troops will help as long as they were needed and "not a minute later."
But in Washington, White House spokesman Scott McClellan demanded "further clarification from Indonesia about what this means."
"We hope that the government of Indonesia and the military in Indonesia will continue the strong support they have provided to the international relief efforts so far," he said.
Although most Indonesians have expressed thanks for U.S. help, nationalist politicians in the world's most populous Muslim country have been grumbling about "American interlopers."
Indonesia's new president, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, is a former general in a country that has been under martial law for much of its recent history.
Always wary of America, Indonesia reluctantly allowed U.S. soldiers in when it became clear it could not deal with the aftermath of the Dec. 26 tsunami on its own.
Yudhoyono's government also moved to reassert control over wave-walloped Aceh by ordering aid workers and journalists to declare their travel plans - or face expulsion.
"It is important to note that the government would be placed in a very difficult position if any foreigner who came to Aceh to assist in the aid effort was harmed through the acts of irresponsible parties," the government said in a statement.
The Indonesian government was referring to the rebels who have largely stayed out of the way as the international rescue missions have been mounted.
Sigh.
How USocentric, as ever.
They have asked that ALL foreign troops be out by then.
Oz isn't throwing a tantrum - we understand that this is a sensitive issue for Indonesia.
Grow up.
Of course, it is a pity, for the people affected - but, really, how many countries - especially prickly ones like Indonesia, whose colonized past is well within living memory (they only got rid of the Dutch after WW II) - would be comfortable with lots of foreign troops on its soil? - and Australia was recently seen as a foreign encroacher, when we went into East Timor.
This is a complex situation, and huffy nonsense has no place. We are there to help - not get an ego boost.
We should just leave then....if that slows their recovery efforts then that's the breaks of the game......it's one thing to help in the face of such a tragedy and in my opinion individuals define themselves by their willingness to put aside all differences and chip in.... but governments and politicians all suck no matter home or abroad..and if they're going to piss in our face then we should pull our governement aid both financial and physical and come on home.....I know a lot of people will be surprised to hear me say that but that's how I feel....there are private organizations and many individual Americans including myself who are willing to help....I guess that'll do...the Federal government here at home just pulled Raleighs mass transit funds....send that to us....it also doesn't take a very strong bullshit detector to see that bush is making political hey with this tragedy either....so bring 'em home...today will do nicely...
Childish nonsense - I am surprised at you Bear!
I don't know why dlowan...I am all for as much private aid as people are willing to give.... but if troops are not wanted then we should just leave..much as we should leave Iraq...there will be both positive and negative consequences involved in that action....as always, the fate of many are decided by the snippiness of a few select....
I will say however that I did not realize they were asking ALL troops to leave....the article posted here...in an American paper of course...doesn't seem to mention that (no surprise) so that does change the landscape a bit but in the end if the government wants us out and is willing to bear the loss of aid...then give 'em what they want.....let private organizations with no political agenda help (there are many, even me and my band) and go with it...
I hope when we leave we should do so with our wallet as well. That money could be used to feed and house the homeless and hungry in this country or for any of the other programs that Bush is so hot to cut. The people hit by the successive storms in Fla. are in need. In is needed to put their lives back together again.
It saddens me to see this tragedy become politicized...but it doesn't surprise me....
Group Says It Relocated 300 Orphans
Va. Missionaries Talk of Raising Muslim Tsunami Victims in Christian Home
By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, January 13, 2005; Page A01
A Virginia-based missionary group said this week that it has airlifted 300 "tsunami orphans" from the Muslim province of Banda Aceh to Jakarta, the Indonesian capital, where it plans to raise them in a Christian children's home.
The missionary group, WorldHelp, is one of dozens of Christian, Muslim and Jewish charities providing humanitarian relief to victims of the Dec. 26 earthquake and tsunami that devastated countries around the Indian Ocean, taking more than 150,000 lives.
Most of the religious charities do not attach any conditions to their aid, and many of the larger ones -- such as WorldVision, Catholic Relief Services and Church World Service -- have policies against proselytizing. But a few of the smaller groups have been raising money among evangelical Christians by presenting the tsunami emergency effort as a rare opportunity to make converts in hard-to-reach areas.
"Normally, Banda Aceh is closed to foreigners and closed to the gospel. But, because of this catastrophe, our partners there are earning the right to be heard and providing entrance for the gospel," WorldHelp said in an appeal for funds on its Web site this week.
The appeal said WorldHelp was working with native-born Christians in Indonesia who want to "plant Christian principles as early as possible" in the 300 Muslim children, all younger than 12, who lost their parents in the tsunami.
"These children are homeless, destitute, traumatized, orphaned, with nowhere to go, nowhere to sleep and nothing to eat. If we can place them in a Christian children's home, their faith in Christ could become the foothold to reach the Aceh people," it said.
The Web site was changed, and the appeal was removed yesterday after The Washington Post called to inquire about it. The Rev. Vernon Brewer, president of WorldHelp in Forest, Va., said in a telephone interview the organization had collected about $70,000 in donations and was seeking to raise another $350,000 to build the orphanage.
Brewer said the Indonesian government gave permission for the orphans to be flown to Jakarta last week and was aware that they would be raised as Christians.
["We have no knowledge of this," Foreign Ministry spokesman Marty Natalegawa said today in Jakarta. "If confirmed, this would constitute a serious violation of the standing ban by the Indonesian government on the adoption of Acehnese children affected by the tsunami disaster and appropriate steps would be taken accordingly." He added that he did not believe any Indonesian official would have approved the transfer of the children.] "These are children who are unclaimed or unwanted. We are not trying to rip them apart from any existing family members and change their culture and change their customs," Brewer said. "These children are going to be raised in a Christian environment. That's no guarantee they will choose to be Christians."
Brewer, a Baptist minister, was the first person to graduate from the Rev. Jerry Falwell's Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., in 1971. He served as a vice president of the Christian university before founding WorldHelp in 1991. It has since grown to 100 full-time employees in the United States and helps to support indigenous Christian missionaries in about 50 countries, he said.
Brewer said WorldHelp is an independent organization but has a friendly, informal relationship with nearby Liberty University, which held a fundraiser at a basketball game Monday night to benefit WorldHelp's tsunami relief projects.
"I think Vernon [Brewer] has got the right approach," Falwell said yesterday. "If Christian ministries can earn the right to be heard -- you don't preach the gospel to a hungry man, you feed him, then if he wants to hear something you've got to say, that's nice, but it's not required."
WorldHelp's primary partners in Indonesia, Brewer said, are Henry and Roy Lanting, a father-son team who run an orphanage and school near Jakarta. Roy Lanting is also a graduate of Liberty University, Brewer said. Efforts to reach the Lantings by telephone and e-mail yesterday were unsuccessful.
"First and foremost, our intention is not to evangelize but to show the love of Jesus Christ through our acts of compassion," Brewer said. "We are not using this open window of disaster to move in and set up a beachhead for evangelism. That's not the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish. . . ." The Rev. Arthur B. Keys Jr., president of Arlington-based International Relief and Development, a non-religious aid group that has a U.S. government contract to rebuild the water and sanitation system in Banda Aceh, said he feared overt evangelizing could produce a backlash. "I think there's a danger that all international groups could be tarnished by this," said Keys, an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ. "I think we have to go out of our way to assure people that we're there to help, period."
One missionary support group, Advancing Native Missions based in Charlottesville, said it has raised more than $100,000 to pay for distribution of food, water and cooking utensils in Indonesia, Sri Lanka and South India.
Its workers often hand out Bibles or other religious tracts along with emergency supplies because disaster victims naturally question the existence of God, spokesman Oliver Asher said.
"It's easy to be an atheist when you have no crisis in your life. But have a 50-foot tidal wave sweep your family and village away, it makes you ponder the big questions in life," he said.
Operation Mobilization USA, based in Tyrone, Ga., has raised about $60,000 to address "both the physical and the spiritual needs" of tsunami victims, according to its vice president for resource development, Douglas R. Barclay.
He said Operation Mobilization, founded in 1957, supports about 3,700 missionaries in 110 countries and moved quickly to provide water, food and medical supplies after the tsunami hit. "In these situations, we're not going to go out and blatantly preach to them, we're just going to demonstrate God's love by addressing their physical needs and sharing our beliefs one on one," he said.
One of the largest and best-known evangelical Christian relief groups is Samaritan's Purse of Boone, N.C., which is headed by the Rev. Franklin Graham, son of evangelist Billy Graham. It sparked international controversy by openly mixing evangelization with its relief work after Hurricane Mitch in Central America in 1998 and the U.S. invasion of Iraq last year. But it has made great efforts to be "sensitive to local concerns" in areas hit by the tsunami, Franklin Graham said.
And now we see one of the reasons for Indonesian "prickliness"!!!!!!
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:I don't know why dlowan...I am all for as much private aid as people are willing to give.... but if troops are not wanted then we should just leave..much as we should leave Iraq...there will be both positive and negative consequences involved in that action....as always, the fate of many are decided by the snippiness of a few select....
I will say however that I did not realize they were asking ALL troops to leave....the article posted here...in an American paper of course...doesn't seem to mention that (no surprise) so that does change the landscape a bit but in the end if the government wants us out and is willing to bear the loss of aid...then give 'em what they want.....let private organizations with no political agenda help (there are many, even me and my band) and go with it...
Again, I say I think that is childish sulking.
Frankly, given the nature of Indonesian pride and prickliness, politics, their military, the balancing act to be performed by their government re the radicalising effect of the invasion of Iraq on local Islamic opinion etc was pleasantly surprised that they ever let foreign troops in at all. I anticipated that the action would produce a reaction. Iam sure our governments did, too - we, at least, are used to dealing with Indonesia.
For the people affected, the military provided an obviously fantastic crisis intervention - with its ready supply of equipment, disciplined personnel, engineering, water purification, field medical ability etc. Australian troops, who seem, oddly, to have taken longer to get their enmasse than your folk, are still arriving - and will continue to do so without, thank goddess, our government pouting and posturing about the Indonesians requesting they leave by a certain date. Fortunately, I do not see your government having a tantrum, either.
The troops will continue to provide much-needed assistance until they leave.
Are we not there for the PEOPLE, not the government? Those troops are there to help - not as symbols for our governments, or us, to get huffy about. The scale of the disaster has made military assistance in this early stage the best assistance., notwithstanding the amount of private aid which is flowing there.
The Indonesians are not picking on the US (which you acknowledge - you have no idea how irritating the kind of reporting which Au has posted here is to the rest of the world!!!!!!!) - they have not asked for immediate withdrawal - yes, their government are being a little rude to our minds - so what? We are, as I said, supposed to be helping the Indonesian people - not having our egos massaged by scenes of mass adulation!!!!!!!!
Sheeesh.
dlowan
I do not think that anyone is or has asked for adulation. The entire world has mobilized in a humanitarian effort to help the people of that nation. And what does that nations leadership do in return? Acts like a dog who bites the hand that feeds him.
IMO trying to justify it just won't wash.
Requesting troops leave by a certain date is "biting the hand that feeds it"?
When they do it because they don't want foreigners to be seen as the good guys by their people - YES, absolutely they are 'biting the hand that feeds them.' If their government were more concerned for the welfare of their people, they wouldn't care who the assistance came from. They just don't want to lose face - talk about a bunch of macho crap! This is pettiness at best, and will result in additional suffering for their people.
Quote:January 12, 2005
LONDON TIMES
Indonesian army accused of executing tsunami victims
By Richard Lloyd Parry in Banda Aceh
Refugees from the tsunami say that two members of the Free Aceh Movement (GAM) and seven unarmed villagers were executed by Indonesian soldiers last week.
The reports came from the village of Lampuuk yesterday, in the Indonesian province of Aceh on the island of Sumatra. The region was devastated by the tsunami waves on Boxing Day.
"They were walking through the forest to collect some motorbikes from the ruins of their homes, when they met TNI [Indonesian National Army] soldiers," said one local, who refused to be named, for fear of reprisals from the TNI.
"The soldiers called them over, made them take off their clothes, and shot them on the spot."
This account and others like it contradict the TNI's claims - repeated yesterday by its spokesman, General Endriartono Sutarto - to be seeking a ceasefire with the rebels.
"For the time being, we are making this offer," he said in Banda Aceh, the provincial capital. "We have to work together to help Aceh."
Baktiar Abdullah, a GAM spokesman in exile, based in Sweden, had welcomed the army's apparent offer of a truce.
"[This] has come a bit late, but still, it is something that is positive and good," said Mr Abdullah.
"All attempts to create a peaceful environment are welcome. We hope they will keep their promise and honor the ceasefire."
Acehnese freedom fighters have struggled for decades to win independence, first from the occupying Dutch and, since the Second World War, from the Republic of Indonesia. The province is rich in oil and natural gas, but many people remain poor, and resent the economic dominance of Indonesians from the central island of Java.
After intermittent attempts to raise a rebellion, GAM coalesced as a serious military force in the 1990s, and remains at large in the mountainous jungles of the province despite brutal counteroffensives by the TNI.
Both sides have been accused by independent aid agencies of atrocities. The army is accused of terrorising villagers suspected of supplying the rebels, and murdering Indonesian human rights workers. Elements of GAM, in turn, are said to deal in marijuana, and to extort money and supplies.
The Indonesians launched a new offensive against GAM and declared martial law after the collapse of peace talks in Tokyo in 2003.
GAM negotiators at the talks were arrested as they returned to Aceh. A number of them drowned in their cells when the tsunami inundated Banda Aceh's prison on Boxing Day.
Before the December 26 tsunami, Indonesia had sealed off Aceh to outsiders while it conducted a major military offensive to crush separatists locked in a long-running independence struggle. The conflict was temporarily suspended while Aceh province reeled from the disaster, in which more than 106,000 Indonesians died.
But for the past week, military officers have repeatedly insinuated that GAM is infiltrating refugee camps and represents a threat to the thousands of foreigners who have descended on Aceh since the Boxing Day earthquake and tsunami.
The army has offered no evidence for its claims. The Government is nonetheless forcing foreign aid missions and journalists to register with authorities and be accompanied by the military if they travel outside outside the cities of Banda Aceh in the north and Meulaboh along the west coast.
Yusuf Kalla, Indonesia's Vice-President, said that foreign troops bringing help should leave within three months, and has insisted on stationing Indonesian soldiers on foreign ships and aircrafts.
"We are trying to safeguard the safety of all of you. We don't want any of you to be hurt by irresponsible GAM members," Alwi Shihab, the Welfare Minister, told reporters in Banda Aceh.
Aid agencies have expressed concern over the restrictions. Pete Sweetnam, team leader for non-governmental group Mercy Corps in Meulaboh, said that the orders "may have an effect on our operation", adding that "complete humanitarian access is the ideal".
The United Nations co-ordinator for Aceh, Joel Boutroue, said that he did not believe there was a threat from the rebels, adding that although his organisation had no objection to the measures, it was clear security was not the only goal.
Indonesian officials also said Wednesday they may reject some of the millions of dollars of aid pledged for the country as commitments may prove too costly to administer or repay.
Not sure anyone can ascribe good motives to the Indonesian goverment.
you are scolding the wrong guy ms. buns...in 3 hours I'll be taking the stage to do a benefit concert for relief aid that I have organized, provided sound lighting and stage gear for, promoted and obtained bands to work for free and am donating every dine to tsunami aid.....I just object to the snotty position of the GOVERNMENTS involved theirs and ours.....
From the International Herald Tribune:
Quote:Many Indonesians, and foreign diplomats, do not accept the government's reason for the restrictions at face value. It is more likely they say that the military wants to reassert control over the province, they say. Prior to the tsunami, the area was under martial law, and foreign journalists were not allowed in..
Pascoe defended the government's requirement, announced this week, that all aid workers register.
.
"They're saying register your people," he said. "I find that totally unremarkable. Every government has the right to check on foreigners in their country."
.
Pascoe also bristled when he was question, again, about the motivation behind the U.S. relief efforts. Was they to improve America's image with Muslims, in light of the Iraq war, he was asked, and to open up Aceh, which is rich in natural resources, to American companies?
.
Those notions are "as wacky as they can be, and I would just say flatly they are foolish." What the United States was doing was perfectly clear - save lives and alleviate suffering. "We're trying to make this a better world."
Jane Perlez contributed reporting for this article from Banda Aceh.
dlowan
Biting the hand that feeds them is just an analogy. And a very appropriate one.
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