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Bush Awol Redux

 
 
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 01:39 pm
Unfortunately, the uproar over the fake Dan Rather documents at CBS was successfully used to obscure the fact that there really does exist a whole mountain of evidence that Bush's previous record was, shall we say, a little fishy.

I found this at http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/20/bush_guard_records/index_np.html (daypass ad or subscription req'd)

Quote:
Bush in the National Guard: A primerThe flap over dubious documents has obscured the real story. Here it is.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Eric Boehlert



Sept. 20, 2004 | Under order from U.S. District Court Judge Harold Baer Jr. to find and make public any of President Bush's military records that had not already been released, the Pentagon late on Friday released yet another batch of documents. None of the new paperwork addresses the lingering questions surrounding Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard during the height of the Vietnam War, how Bush's own records indicate he missed mandatory duty for months at a time, or how he managed to go unsupervised for nearly two years. The federal court order stems from an ongoing lawsuit filed by the Associated Press in June to obtain all of Bush's relevant records. In February, when White House aides told reporters they had made public "absolutely everything" about Bush's military service, the AP noticed several obvious gaps and went to court to obtain additional documents.

The lawsuit had already resulted in the disclosure of previously unreleased flight logs that indicated that Bush, a fully trained pilot since 1970, often flew two-seater training jets in March 1972, shortly before he piloted a plane for the last time. This despite his promise, when he entered the Guard's training program, to serve as a full pilot until 1974.


What is also already known is that in the spring of 1972, with 770 days left of required duty, Bush unilaterally decided that he was done fulfilling his military obligation. Also in the spring of 1972, Bush refused to take a physical and quickly cleared out of his Guard base in Houston, heading off to work on the Senate campaign of Winton "Red" Blount in Alabama. Referring to that period, one of Bush's Guard flying buddies remarked to USA Today in 2002, "It was an irrational time in his life."

It may have been an irrational time for him, but Bush managed to focus intently on not serving in the Guard in any significant capacity again. His public records paint a portrait of a Guardsman who, with the cooperation of his Texas Air National Guard superiors, simply flouted regulation after regulation (more than 30 by Salon's count) indifferent to his signed obligation to serve.

The details can get a bit obscure, but the basic timeline of Bush's service between 1972 and 1974 is easy to follow: In spring 1972 Bush attempted to permanently transfer to a non-flying Alabama Guard unit. During the second half of 1972 he missed many of his required weekend training drills. At the end of the year he returned to Houston. Bush then had to make up the absences he had stacked up while in Alabama through "substitute service" training in 1972 and 1973. In July 1973, Bush asked to be released by the Texas Air National Guard so he could attend Harvard Business School. In September, the Guard let him go, and the Air Force officially dismissed Bush in November 1974.

Yet looking at the already available public records, they raise as many questions as they answer about Bush and his surrogates' accounts of his service -- because from his Alabama transfer to his missed physical to his substitute service to his "inactive status" to his honorable discharge, it was as if Air Force and Guard regulations simply did not apply to Lt. Bush. He seemed to become a ghostlike figure, doing -- or not doing -- whatever he pleased, unsupervised and unrated by his commanders. One serious question is whether some of Bush's superiors may have played an active role in hiding Bush's shoddy record -- pressured perhaps by powerful politicians -- by crediting him with crucial makeup training days that appear dubious in nature.

None of the discrepancies detailed below between Bush's accounts and what his records show are based on the disputed memos reportedly written by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian that were aired by CBS News two weeks ago. CBS executives now concede they have concerns about the memos' authenticity, but stress that the contents accurately reflect the turmoil Bush and his chronic absenteeism created for the Texas Air National Guard, as reported by others who worked with Killian. In an interview with New Hampshire's Manchester Union Leader on Saturday, Bush would not say the documents were forgeries. He added, "There are a lot of questions about the documents and they need to be answered." But the authenticity of the memos, which contain very few facts about Bush's actual service, is a sideshow in the effort to determine the truth about Bush's military service. (Independent researchers such as Paul Lukasiak, retired Army Col. Gerald Lechliter and Marty Heldt have contributed to this ongoing effort to uncover the facts.)

Consider the following anomalies:


(Note that statements below that certain documents do not exist, or that Bush failed to obtain proper authorization, are based on the White House's repeated insistence that all relevant Bush military documents have been made public. Some of these documents, of course, may yet turn up.)


Bush flew for the last time on April 16, 1972. Upon entering the Guard, Bush agreed to fly for 60 months. After his training was complete, he owed 53 months of flying.

But he flew for only 22 of those 53 months.


Upon being accepted for pilot training, Bush promised to serve with his parent (Texas) Guard unit for five years once he completed his pilot training.

But Bush served as a pilot with his parent unit for just two years.


In May 1972 Bush left the Houston Guard base for Alabama. According to Air Force regulations, Bush was supposed to obtain prior authorization before leaving Texas to join a new Guard unit in Alabama.

But Bush failed to get the authorization.


In requesting a permanent transfer to a nonflying unit in Alabama in 1972, Bush was supposed to sign an acknowledgment that he received relocation counseling.

But no such document exists.


He was supposed to receive a certification of satisfactory participation from his unit.

But Bush did not.


He was supposed to sign and give a letter of resignation to his Texas unit commander.

But Bush did not.


He was supposed to receive discharge orders from the Texas Air National Guard adjutant general.

But Bush did not.


He was supposed to receive new assignment orders for the Air Force Reserves.

But Bush did not.


On his transfer request Bush was asked to list his "permanent address."

But he wrote down a post office box number for the campaign he was working for on a temporary basis.


On his transfer request Bush was asked to list his Air Force specialty code.

But Bush, an F-102 pilot, erroneously wrote the code for an F-89 or F-94 pilot. Both planes had been retired from service at the time. Bush, an officer, made this mistake more than once on the same form.


On May 26, 1972, Lt. Col. Reese Bricken, commander of the 9921st Air Reserve Squadron at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama, informed Bush that a transfer to his nonflying unit would be unsuitable for a fully trained pilot such as he was, and that Bush would not be able to fulfill any of his remaining two years of flight obligation.

But Bush pressed on with his transfer request nonetheless.


Bush's transfer request to the 9921st was eventually denied by the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver, which meant he was still obligated to attend training sessions one weekend a month with his Texas unit in Houston.

But Bush failed to attend weekend drills in May, June, July, August and September. He also failed to request permission to make up those days at the time.


According to Air Force regulations, "[a] member whose attendance record is poor must be closely monitored. When the unexcused absences reach one less than the maximum permitted [sic] he must be counseled and a record made of the counseling. If the member is unavailable he must be advised by personal letter."

But there is no record that Bush ever received such counseling, despite the fact that he missed drills for months on end.


Bush's unit was obligated to report in writing to the Personnel Center at Randolph Air Force Base whenever a monthly review of records showed unsatisfactory participation for an officer.

But his unit never reported Bush's absenteeism to Randolph Air Force Base.


In July 1972 Bush failed to take a mandatory Guard physical exam, which is a serious offense for a Guard pilot. The move should have prompted the formation of a Flying Evaluation Board to investigation the circumstances surrounding Bush's failure.

But no such FEB was convened.


Once Bush was grounded for failing to take a physical, his commanders could have filed a report on why the suspension should be lifted.

But Bush's commanders made no such request.


On Sept. 15, 1972, Bush was ordered to report to Lt. Col. William Turnipseed, the deputy commander of the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group in Montgomery, Ala., to participate in training on the weekends of Oct. 7-8 and Nov. 4-5, 1972.

But there's no evidence Bush ever showed up on those dates. In 2000, Turnipseed told the Boston Globe that Bush did not report for duty. (A self-professed Bush supporter, Turnipseed has since backed off from his categorical claim.)


However, according to the White House-released pay records, which are unsigned, Bush was credited for serving in Montgomery on Oct. 28-29 and Nov. 11-14, 1972. Those makeup dates should have produced a paper trail, including Bush's formal request as well as authorization and supervision documents.

But no such documents exist, and the dates he was credited for do not match the dates when the Montgomery unit assembled for drills.

When Guardsmen miss monthly drills, or "unit training assemblies" (UTAs), they are allowed to make them up through substitute service and earn crucial points toward their service record. Drills are worth one point on a weekday and two points on each weekend day. For Bush's substitute service on Nov. 13-14, 1972, he was awarded four points, two for each day.

But Nov. 13 and 14 were both weekdays. He should have been awarded two points.


Bush earned six points for service on Jan. 4-6, 1973 -- a Thursday, Friday and Saturday.

But he should have earned four points, one each for Thursday and Friday, two for Saturday.


Weekday training was the exception in the Guard. For example, from May 1968 to May 1972, when Bush was in good standing, he was not credited with attending a single weekday UTA.

But after 1972, when Bush's absenteeism accelerated, nearly half of his credited UTAs were for weekdays.


To maintain unit cohesiveness, the parameters for substitute service are tightly controlled; drills must be made up within 15 days immediately before, or 30 days immediately after, the originally scheduled drill, according to Guard regulations at the time.

But more than half of the substitute service credits Bush received fell outside that clear time frame. In one case, he made up a drill nine weeks in advance.


On Sept. 29, 1972, Bush was formally grounded for failing to take a flight physical. The letter, written by Maj. Gen. Francis Greenlief, chief of the National Guard Bureau, ordered Bush to acknowledge in writing that he had received word of his grounding.

But no such written acknowledgment exists. In 2000, Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett told the Boston Globe that Bush couldn't remember if he'd ever been grounded.


Bartlett also told the Boston Globe that Bush didn't undergo a physical while in Alabama because his family doctor was in Houston.

But only Air Force flight surgeons can give flight physicals to pilots.


Guard members are required to take a physical exam every 12 months.

But Bush's last Guard physical was in May 1971. Bush was formally discharged from the service in November 1974, which means he went without a required physical for 42 months.


Bush's unsatisfactory participation in the fall of 1972 should have prompted the Texas Air National Guard to write to his local draft board and inform the board that Bush had become eligible for the draft. Guard units across the country contacted draft boards every Sept. 15 to update them on the status of local Guard members. Bush's absenteeism should have prompted what's known as a DD Form 44, "Record of Military Status of Registrant."

But there is no record of any such document having been sent to Bush's draft board in Houston.


Records released by the White House note that Bush received a military dental exam in Alabama on Jan. 6, 1973.

But Bush's request to serve in Alabama covered only September, October and November 1972. Why he would still be serving in Alabama months after that remains unclear.


Each of Bush's numerous substitute service requests should have formed a lengthy paper trail consisting of AF Form 40a's, with the name of the officer who authorized the training in advance, the signature of the officer who supervised the training and Bush's own signature.

But no such documents exist.


During his last year with the Texas Air National Guard, Bush missed nearly two-thirds of his mandatory UTAs and made up some of them with substitute service. Guard regulations allowed substitute service only in circumstances that are "beyond the control" of the Guard member.

But neither Bush nor the Texas Air National Guard has ever explained what the uncontrollable circumstances were that forced him to miss the majority of his assigned drills in his last year.


Bush supposedly returned to his Houston unit in April 1973 and served two days.

But at the end of April, when Bush's Texas commanders had to rate him for their annual report, they wrote that they could not do so: "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of this report."


On June 29, 1973, the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver instructed Bush's commanders to get additional information from his Alabama unit, where he had supposedly been training, in order to better evaluate Bush's duty. The ARPC gave Texas a deadline of Aug. 6 to get the information.

But Bush's commanders ignored the request.


Bush was credited for attending four days of UTAs with his Texas unit July 16-19, 1973. That was good for eight crucial points.

But that's not possible. Guard units hold only two UTAs each month -- one on a Saturday and one on a Sunday. Although Bush may well have made up four days, they should not all have been counted as UTAs, since they occur just twice a month. The other days are known as "Appropriate Duty," or APDY.


On July 30, 1973, Bush, preparing to attend Harvard Business School, signed a statement acknowledging it was his responsibility to find another unit in which to serve out the remaining nine months of his commitment.

But Bush never contacted another unit in Massachusetts in which to fulfill his obligation.

Despite the laundry list of Guard discrepancies, Bush, when asked about his service this weekend, insisted, "I did everything [my superiors] asked me to do."


There are a plethora of links to other articles in the original salon piece that I didn't have the time to embed here, so I would ask that those who want to know more about the background of the documentary evidence go there instead of bug me about it.

I'm sure, typing this, that there will be a typical response from the conservatives amongst us that this is a dead issue, but that's bullshit. It's just another example of the type of morality that has come into power in our country: the ends justifying the means.

Cycloptichorn
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 01:43 pm
The AP did a good job running down some of the many excuses given by the Bush admin about this:

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/politics/10019563.htm?1c

Quote:
Posted on Tue, Oct. 26, 2004

Chronology on Bush Nat'l Guard Service

Associated Press


WASHINGTON - A look at some of the shifting explanations President Bush and his spokesmen have given for events in Bush's Texas Air National Guard service:

THE QUESTION

Why did Bush skip a required yearly medical examination in 1972?

THE EXPLANATIONS

July 1999: Campaign spokeswoman Karen Hughes tells reporters Bush missed his physical because he was working on a political campaign in Alabama and had no access to the "special" doctors who perform the examinations.

July 2000: Campaign spokesman Dan Bartlett tells the Boston Globe that Bush doesn't remember being grounded.

October 2000: Bartlett tells the Boston Globe he can state unequivocally that Bush was never grounded.

November 2000: Bartlett tells reporters Bush had no reason to take the exam because he was transferring to Alabama and his Texas unit was phasing out use of the F-102A fighter. Bartlett says Bush chose not to take the exam.

Feb. 12: White House spokesman Scott McClellan tells reporters: "He moved to Alabama for a civilian job and he was on non-flying status while in Alabama. There was no need for a flight exam."

Sept. 9: Bartlett, now White House communications director, tells CBS: "The records have been clear for years that President Bush did not take a physical because he did not need to take a physical because, obviously, the choice was that he was going to be performing in a different capacity."

Sept. 29: White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan, in response to an Associated Press question about why Bush did not retake his medical exam after returning to Texas in 1973: "When he returned to Texas, the F-102 (the plane he was trained to fly) was being phased out and pilot slots were limited. Since the president was then planning to go to the Harvard business school, it would not have made sense to allocate one of the F-102 slots or to spend the financial resources to train him to fly a new plane."

THE FACTS

National Guard doctors perform medical examinations. Bush could have gotten an exam either at his base in Texas or at any of several Alabama Air National Guard installations in and around Montgomery.

Bush was required to take his medical exam by his birthday, July 6, 1972, which was more than a month before he won final approval for temporary training with an Alabama unit. Bush's Texas commanders ordered him grounded Sept. 5, 1972, the same day Bush wrote to them asking to train with the 187th Fighter Interceptor Squadron in Montgomery. That unit did not use the F-102A jets Bush was trained to fly.

Bush's home unit, the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, was beginning to shift to F-101 jets in 1973. But the unit continued to fly the F-102A until 1974 and trained F-102A pilots for other Air National Guard units during that time. Records released this month show the 111th added two F-102A pilots from a Vermont National Guard unit to its roster in 1973, the year Bush claimed the unit was eliminating F-102A pilot slots.

Bush has said he decided to go to Harvard in the summer of 1973, months after his return to Texas from Alabama. He formally asked to be released from the Texas guard in July 1973, a request granted that October.

THE QUESTION

When did Bush train in Alabama, and what did he do?

THE EXPLANATIONS

During the 2000 campaign, Bush spokesmen said he trained with the 187th from May to October 1972.

May 2000: Bartlett said Bush remembered performing some duty in Alabama and "recalls coming back to Houston and doing (Guard) duty, though he does not recall if it was on a consistent basis."

May 23, 2000: At the request of the Bush campaign, retired Lt. Col. Albert Lloyd Jr., the former personnel director of the Texas Air National Guard, tells reporters Bush returned to his Texas unit in November 1972.

June 1, 2000: Campaign spokesman Ari Fleischer, asked if Bush temporarily left his Texas unit, responded: "Of course he did, with the permission of the Guard, which is not unusual."

June 23, 2000: At a campaign appearance in Alabama, Bush says of his service there: "I was there on a temporary assignment and fulfilled my weekends at one period of time... I can't remember what I did, but I wasn't flying because they didn't have the same airplanes."

June 24, 2000: Fleischer tells reporters Bush remembered doing "paper shuffling" in Montgomery.

June 26, 2000: Bartlett tells the Dallas Morning News that Bush showed up several times for training in Alabama but said the president does not remember how many times. Bartlett says Bush returned to his Texas unit in December 1972 and made up for missed drills then. In Alabama, "most of his work was paperwork related," Bartlett says.

October 2000: Bartlett tells The New York Times that Bush was too busy with the campaign in mid-1972 to report to guard duty, but he made up the training later.

Feb. 3, 2004: Bush says on NBC's "Meet the Press": "There may be no evidence, but I did report (for duty in Alabama)."

Feb. 10, 2004: McClellan acknowledges that documents released by the White House do not prove Bush served in Alabama.

Feb. 12, 2004: The White House releases an incomplete dental examination form dated in January 1973 saying it was performed in Montgomery. McClellan says: "This document further demonstrates the president fulfilling his duties and serving while in Alabama."

Sept. 9, 2004: The White House tells CBS Bush "met his drills then when he came back" from Alabama "and that's why he received an honorable discharge."

Sept. 29, 2004: Buchan tells AP that Bush did "administrative duties" in Alabama. "The records demonstrate that he followed the proper procedures and worked through the chain of command to receive approval to perform equivalent duty in Alabama."

THE FACTS

Payroll records show Bush did not show up for any guard service between mid-April and late October 1972. At the time he was in Alabama working on the unsuccessful U.S. Senate campaign of a family friend.

Air Force officials rejected Bush's first request to train with an Air Force Reserve unit in Alabama because the unit did not fit Bush's training requirements. In September 1972, Bush asked for and received permission to train for three months with the 187th.

Payroll records show Bush was paid for guard service twice in October 1972 and four times the next month. The pay records do not say where Bush served.

The dental record says Bush got his teeth examined at the 187th base in January 1973, a month in which he was paid for six days of duty. Bush was next paid for two days in April 1973.

A performance evaluation by Bush's Texas commanders in May 1973 said Bush had not appeared at the Texas base for an entire year.

No Alabama Air National Guard records have surfaced showing Bush did any duty there. Former commanders and other members of the 187th in 1972 and 1973 say they don't remember ever seeing Bush there.

One former member of the unit, retired Lt. Col. John Calhoun, has said he remembers Bush showing up for weekend training drills with the 187th during the summer and fall of 1972. Bush's records, however, show he was never paid for any dates in 1972 when the 187th performed its weekend drills.



Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 01:45 pm
All this and he was still elected Governor and president. Twice.

This is just a dung clod that won't stick.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 01:51 pm
Nah, it'll stick sooner or later. It's not like people are going to give up on things just because Bushco successfully scared Americans into re-electing him.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 01:54 pm
I think the only ones that were scared were those that saw the alternative to Bush.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 01:56 pm
McGentrix wrote:
All this and he was still elected Governor and president. Twice.

This is just a dung clod that won't stick.

Sadly, I think you're right.

This has been brought up every time he's been up for election.

People also don't seem to care about his drunk-driving conviction or his drug use.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 01:56 pm
Funny, but hardly topical.

It's not the fact that he missed his duty that bothers me so much as the fact that he (and his crew) continually lie about it. They should have just told the truth a long time ago.

As I said before, it's yet another example of the ends justifying the means for this Administration. I find it somewhat Ironical that 'moral values' are what got Bushco elected.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 01:58 pm
Laughing Didn't CBS just fire a bunch of fools over this foolishness. Relax Cyclops; Bush won't win again. Laughing Why not get a head start and start spreading rumors that Arnold wasn't really in the 3rd Terminator movie! Laughing


http://www.nevtron.si/borderline/deadhors.gif
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 02:00 pm
If you care to RTFA, Bill, you would note that the author carefully points out that none of the CBS evidence is included at all.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 02:21 pm
Laughing Did you happen to note the date on TFA? Laughing (Not news. :wink:)
(This is what happens when you get your news from Salon.com Idea)
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 02:27 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I think the only ones that were scared were those that saw the alternative to Bush.


Wasn't he the guy accused of...uhhh...something about Swift Boats.
Somehow that stuck pretty hard.
It's all a matter of influence and wealth.....opps, I mean perspective.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 02:30 pm
candidone1 wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
I think the only ones that were scared were those that saw the alternative to Bush.


Wasn't he the guy accused of...uhhh...something about Swift Boats.
Somehow that stuck pretty hard.
It's all a matter of influence and wealth.....opps, I mean perspective.


The truth does tend to stick doesn't it? :wink:
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 02:38 pm
McGentrix wrote:

The truth does tend to stick doesn't it? :wink:


Well, I have no problem admitting that either Bush or Kerry dodged responsibilities...but I think it would be better to hear the truth about the Swift Boats, and about Bush's service from the agencies they reported to during that time.
Seems funny that one Presidential candidate and one President of the United States have such substantial allegations floating about, and farily good documentation supporting those allegations, but nothing conclusive, and nothing but denial from either camp.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 07:25 pm
Has anyone here actually read the report? Some verrrrrrrrrry interesting information in there.

Especially on p.130.

Smile

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/complete_report/CBS_Report.pdf

Edit: Correct spelling error (multitasking like crazy here LOL)
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 08:14 pm
You read 130 pages of that? Shocked
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 08:50 pm
Even the Republicans know Bush did not serve honorably in the National Guard. Partisanship keeps them from openly admitting it. It's a sick coverup that will have to wait for history to judge.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 06:38 am
Ok, let's all just call things even. Republicans had to put up with a lying SOB for two terms, Dems will have to put up with a lying SOB for two terms, so I figure it all works out pretty even. Then maybe we can find us an honest politician in 2008.......uh, yeah, right. Oh well.
0 Replies
 
graffiti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 06:44 am
CoastalRat wrote:
Ok, let's all just call things even. Republicans had to put up with a lying SOB for two terms, Dems will have to put up with a lying SOB for two terms, so I figure it all works out pretty even. Then maybe we can find us an honest politician in 2008.......uh, yeah, right. Oh well.


Yes, let's just call things even! This back-and-forth crap is just that: crap.

"Honest Politician" Laughing (oxymoron)
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 08:09 am
Get over it. He went to enough "meetings" to learn how to fly a jet.
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 08:15 am
the national guard issue, the WMD issue...there are a plethora of issues we will never hear about again because they can be sucessfully put to bed and really they don't matter. He got his two terms, he's going to do as much damage as he can do and then try to set things up for another of his exact kind to continue us on our present path in 2008. He doesn't give a **** what people learn or think of him because he's in there now.
0 Replies
 
 

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