Question on the perfection of God

The reason I asked for a reference was because what curacuz said sounded almost diametrically opposed to what Christianity is, in actuality. He was saying Jesus taught that there should be nothing between the individual and God; that there should be a direct line. Jesus taught the exact opposite - he taught that no one can reach God but through the son of God. So, all that stuff about "nothing between" is just false.

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Wha?? Do you all have different versions of the bible than I have?
But seriously...

Sorry Deveron, but your quote was too short for satisfaction. What did Jesus reply to?

I understand snood. But what does Jesus mean by "the son of God"? I find it hard to believe that he was referring to himself. It suggests a pride that I don't imagine Jesus to have posessed.

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Cyracuz wrote:

Wha?? Do you all have different versions of the bible than I have?
But seriously...

Sorry Deveron, but your quote was too short for satisfaction. What did Jesus reply to?

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ. 21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. 22 And Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, "God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you." 23 But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men." 24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life? 27 For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:13-28)

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I understand snood. But what does Jesus mean by "the son of God"? I find it hard to believe that he was referring to himself. It suggests a pride that I don't imagine Jesus to have posessed.

As you see from the quoted passage above, there is no doubt about him acknowledging to being the son of God. It has absolutely nothing to do with pride of course. He even strictly charged his disciples not to mention to anyone that he was the Christ.

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He was referring to himself...in a round about way, but remember the trinity(father, son, holy spirit) Son of god, is just god on earth as a man. He is the only link, because he is the only way we can get a better idea about god.

As far as the statement of no churches...I totally disagree. Church is a chance for people to congregate and support each other and worship god.

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Derevon is correct in his assertions...and the passage he cited backs him up completely.

The Bible...does indeed show the things that he is pointing out.

However...

...the Jesus Seminar...

...a group of pominent religious scholars have combed through the Bible and set out what they see as the "truth" of what Jesus actually said...and what was more than likely added on by Christians at later dates in order to strengthen the case for Jesus' divinity.

Here is a link to one site dealing with this problem...and if you read the introduction, you will see that the Seminar casts doubt on any words that point to Jesus claiming divinity.

http://www.probe.org/docs/jesussem.html

Derevon's main contention that Jesus did in fact establish a church...which directly contradicts what Cyracus asserted is unassailable.

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It is not a show of pridefulness for Jesus to say he is the son of God, any more than it would be for me to say I'm the son of William (my father).

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It is if you say that your father is god.

It seems we've stumbled on a difference between catholic and protestant chritianity. In school, as a kid, I was taught that Jesus did not claim divinity, and that the church is a supplement to those who wish for a meetingplace to practice their faith. I specifically remember being taught that you are no nearer to God in church than anywhere else you are on earth. We were taught that to heed the words of christ was a sure way to God, but we were also warned to beware of those who would place their own words in the mouth of God.

I read your quote, Deveron, and I don't see that this is acknowledgement of anything. He doesn't deny being the son of god, but he doesn't say so. What does "son of the living god" mean?

Matthew 5 verse 9: Blessed are those who make peace, for they shall be called the children of God.

Matthew 26. verse 63... But Jesus held silent. Then the head priest rose and said: "By the living God I bid you to tell us: Are you the Messiah, the son of God?".

What does Jesus answer?

Besides, Iread it just now. First Jesus tells Simon that on this rock he will build his church. A little later in the story this very rock denies Jesus in fear of his own life. What does that say about the church?

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Quote:

Besides, Iread it just now. First Jesus tells Simon that on this rock he will build his church. A little later in the story this very rock denies Jesus in fear of his own life. What does that say about the church?

Not a lot I guess, seeing how, at the time, there was no Christian church. I didn't really get going till after Christ's death, I'm led to believe. Additionally it would be another 200 years after that that the ''organised" church which 4 of the gospels, of the 37(?) that existed, would be used in the new testament. Go you gnostics.

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Not a lot hingehead? I was under the impression that St.Peter is seen as the father of the church.

The comment refers to Deverons post where he quotes Matthew chapter 16. In this quote Jesus tells Peter that on him he will found his church. He tells Peter that whatever he binds on earth will be bound in heaven, and that whatever he looses on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Later, when he denies Christ, does he not forswear God in the same moment? Whatever shall be loosed on earth...

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Peter's denial of Jesus was an act of human weakness in a time of great distress. Later on, when he realised what he had done, he was struck by guilt and remorse, and sincerely repented of his actions.

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When Simon denied Christ, the rock(wich peter means) was crushed to pebbles. Simon may have repented his sins, but the way I see it he was no longer Peter. He gave up that name as he denied Jesus.

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THIS WILL EXPLAIN A LOT
This is amazing... if you are xtrian you might not want to read it

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1019/perfectbeing/perfectbeing.html

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Quote:

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject: THIS WILL EXPLAIN A LOT
This is amazing... if you are xtrian you might not want to read it
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1019/perfectbeing/perfectbeing.html

I am a Christian and I still read this. Smile

The first thing I would like to address is the ability of God to create a universe that is not perfect. I believe that statement is very faulty. I think the universe is perfect...allow me to explain...when he created the universe, he intended for it to have a beginning and an end. If it is exactly as he planned, wouldn't it be perfect from his point of view? The second thing that I want to address is the question of our purpose. I do admit that I cannot give a perfect explanation, but...we are here...and we appear to have some sort of purpose, so I believe that if we follow what Jesus did(as well as I can), I believe I will be fufilling what my purpose is.
If there are more questions, I will be happy to try and answer. I am trying to be open-minded...and a Christian...because ignoring facts is the root of ignorance.

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Quote:

I am trying to be open-minded...and a Christian...because ignoring facts is the root of ignorance.

Bravo. You have to have some jollies to admit that. Wink

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hingehead wrote:

Hey Ray, if he created me then he bears responsibility for my actions. I'm gonna whip that defence out during my heaven/hell trial.

With that logic:
If there is NO God, then I guess it's the bio-parents fault for everything or Credit for everything as the case may be.

But if there is a God and You were created/hatched with a Brain and given the ability to make your own choices, what then.

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

Quote:
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject: THIS WILL EXPLAIN A LOT
This is amazing... if you are xtrian you might not want to read it
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1019/perfectbeing/perfectbeing.html

I am a Christian and I still read this. The first thing I would like to address is the ability of God to create a universe that is not perfect. I believe that statement is very faulty.

Well, if God was perfect, then perhaps he planned not to make a perfect world.

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I think the universe is perfect...allow me to explain...when he created the universe, he intended for it to have a beginning and an end. If it is exactly as he planned, wouldn't it be perfect from his point of view?

Actually, we're still unsure as to whether the Universe will expand forever and continue to existing forever (but the stars burning out and everything descending into cold blackness) or whether it will revert back in a Big Crunch.

Plus when you think about it, there's nothing in the Bible to actually say he created the Universe, only that he created the Earth (and everything on it), the Sun, the Moon and the Stars.

Also, you may want to think twice about the perfection of human beings. We are not perfect and if we were, there would be no still births, birth of people with disfigurations and so forth.

Quote:

The second thing that I want to address is the question of our purpose. I do admit that I cannot give a perfect explanation, but...we are here...and we appear to have some sort of purpose, so I believe that if we follow what Jesus did(as well as I can), I believe I will be fufilling what my purpose is.

How we should live and our purpose are two different things. Jesus is our salvation, or so Christians claim. However, looking at his teachings, I believe we do not need any further salvation from him. He already taught us how to live and I believe his teachings was supposed to be his contribution to our salvation.

After all, if we follow his example, we'd have created a society as close to paradise on Earth as we can get.

However, there are two things that you must bear in mind about God.

If God is perfect, why did he not foresee that placing the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (which I shall abbreviate to TOGE) in plain reach of human beings would increase the chance of them partaking of the fruit? If he clearly did not want humanity to eat the fruit, he should have either not made the TOGE at all or placed it in a position where human beings could never have reached it.

If God is perfect and did foresee that happening, then he is punishing us for something he knew we would have done anyway (a foregone conclusion) and was therefore rather malicious for placing the TOGE in plain reach.

So, which is he? Malicious, not perfect or not ominiscient?

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Seriously, I don't think God is perfect in our sense of the word.

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Another thing I'd like to point out is that if God is perfect, are his works perfect? If so, then how can sexuality and sexual acts as part of his divine plan be considered obscene?

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Quote:

Also, you may want to think twice about the perfection of human beings. We are not perfect and if we were, there would be no still births, birth of people with disfigurations and so forth.

That goes along with the fact that this universe is ticking down and that material things are not perfect and do not last forever.

I think that there are two different perfects-not sinning...not aging(exists eternally)

The tree of knowledge thing is a metaphoric way of saying that we now have the knowledge and ability to make desicions...with knowledge comes responsibily. We choose to sin...it is not his doing.

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Harold Kushner is a noted author on "why bad things happen to good people" and the like..

It seems to me there is an underlying ? along this line frequently in this thread. Just a suggestion.

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Question on the perfection of God

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