If you are so rational and intelligent, what is your rational, great argument against Christians...the one that eradicates all Christians. Also, how do you know what God is or isn't? What proof do you have? Isn't ironic that modern-day scientific discoveries in DNA and other fields show that it takes more faith to be an atheist than someone who believes that there is a God. The bible is one of the greatest history books on this Earth.
I won't argue so long as you call it history.
What I have against christianity? Crusades, book burning, murders, lies. This is the heritage of christianity. I am not saying that all christians are these things. I don't think they are. But christianity stands for all those things. The word of Jesus is sadly pushed aside in favor of personal gain by the upper members of the church.
But this is not different from any system. The humans within it will always pervert it. That is why I say that christians are crazy. Why swear to a system that is so perfectly adapted through hundreds of years to spread lies and fear?
An example from another system. If I thought that the nazis had a few good ideas that I wish to embrace, I wouldn't call myself a nazi. Influenced by nazism maybe, but no nazi.
I am sure that you think that the actions that christianity stand for through history are abominable. Are you a christian if you declare distance from this?
Cyracuz wrote:Deveron, if you had written, what do you mean by such a provoking remark, and THEN gone on to what's in your post, I wouldn't be able to say that your post applies to you too.
You've said that Christianity is for the weakminded and that it's devil worship. That's clear enough.
Quote:Your opinion is that christianity is good, so on that grounds my opinion is worthless crap? You didn't stop to think about what I could mean about devilworship.
Why should I have any reason to believe that with devil worship you refer to anything else than worship of a false god when you haven't said anything that suggests the contrary?
Quote:The thing is that arguments don't work on religious people. If they did there would be no christians in the entire world.
Arguments don't work, so you skipped right to the insults?
Quote:Deveron wrote:
Quote:It's nothing but sheer denigration of a faith.
Quote:Funny you should say that. I would say that to challenge a beliefsystem is what holds faith strong and pure. To swallow it and not question the system does not make for strong individuals. It is infinitely more degenerating to faith than to forswear all belief systems and seek god on your own terms.
A challenge without a single argument is not much of a challenge. Anyhow, Christianity has nothing to do with creating strong individuals.
Quote:Yes, I am rational and intelligent. If you cannot read anything more into my posts than "christians are morons and that's that", then you are actually proving such a statement to be true. But it didn't come from my mouth, but yours. Don't be so hard on yourself.
Not to mention modest.
inner-peace wrote:Cyracuz wrote:Only one thing can come of trying to explain god through human experience. Comedy
exactly... mainly because there is no god
How do you know that...or is it just a guess like the guesses theists make that there is a God?
Cyracuz, I think you went too far in calling Christianity for "weak-minded" and devil worship. How can you call something that has "thou shall not kill", "thou shall not steal", and "treat others like you would treat yourselves", devil worship? I certainly don't see the point of it.
Quote:What I have against christianity? Crusades, book burning, murders, lies. This is the heritage of christianity. I am not saying that all christians are these things. I don't think they are. But christianity stands for all those things.
Heard it all before. I agree that religious institution throughout history have been abused, but if it does not carry the true message of its religion then it is basically straying away from it. It's like the Nazi declaring themselves socialists when they're not.
I do have a lot of things to argue considering about Christianity but I do think that the things above are too stereotypical. You are in particular criticizing the former Catholic institutions and Protestant societies, and not Christianity itself.
Ray wrote:...I agree that religious institution throughout history have been abused, but if it does not carry the true message of its religion then it is basically straying away from it....
Not to put too fine a point on this, Ray...because you seem like a decent guy...but...
...if Christianity were to "carry the true message of its religion"...
...it would be even worse than Cyracuz painted it.
Remember...
...the GOD of Christianity...is the GOD that Jesus worshipped.
Do I really have to cite the many brutal, barbaric things that god suggested...or indeed, demanded?
Alas, you're right Frank. I was heartbroken when I was beginning to see that. You see, I attended a catholic school for three years and the word God has stand for everything good to me, because I have always thought of him as merciful and all good, but hearing the arguments and seeing how some stuffs in the bible contradicts that of morality, I was half-convincing myself that the bible was corrupted and does not carry the true message of Christianity. However, I see that I can not call this view christianity anymore since the bible is what the religion based itself on.
I still see Jesus Christ as a good person/ divine being(if he is one), because I believe, from the stories I heard, that he does truly love people no matter how imperfect they are. If I believe in a God, I would believe in a God that does not encourage torture or murders, no matter how imperfect the person is. My family believes in God, but as I'm seeing it, their view of God is probably not the same as that put out by the bible.
No offence to the Christian out there.
Ray wrote:Alas, you're right Frank. I was heartbroken when I was beginning to see that. You see, I attended a catholic school for three years and the word God has stand for everything good to me, because I have always thought of him as merciful and all good, but hearing the arguments and seeing how some stuffs in the bible contradicts that of morality, I was half-convincing myself that the bible was corrupted and does not carry the true message of Christianity. However, I see that I can not call this view christianity anymore since the bible is what the religion based itself on.
I still see Jesus Christ as a good person/ divine being(if he is one), because I believe, from the stories I heard, that he does truly love people no matter how imperfect they are. If I believe in a God, I would believe in a God that does not encourage torture or murders, no matter how imperfect the person is. My family believes in God, but as I'm seeing it, their view of God is probably not the same as that put out by the bible.
No offence to the Christian out there.
I agree with you, Ray, Jesus had a wonderful message to impart.
Unfortunately, I think many (certainly not al) Christians miss the point of the messge completely. In fact, it is almost as though Christianity itself alienates some people from the message of Jesus.
As I've often noted...and many others have noted the same thing...some of the most Christian people I know are agnostics and atheits...and some of the least Christian...are professed Christians.
Frank Apisa wrote:As I've often noted...and many others have noted the same thing...some of the most Christian people I know are agnostics and atheits...and some of the least Christian...are professed Christians.
Wow Frank, I'm putting that in my new book of aphorisms.
Well, Jesus didn't come to save the holy.
Deveron wrote:
Quote:Why should I have any reason to believe that with devil worship you refer to anything else than worship of a false god when you haven't said anything that suggests the contrary?
There it is again. A false god? Who determines wich god is true? Anyway, with devilworship I mean using the power of god to gain power and control. Christianity worships the human ego more than god itself.
Frank wrote:
Quote:...the GOD of Christianity...is the GOD that Jesus worshipped.
I disagree. The god that jesus worshipped is not the god christianity worships. Jesus preached that there should be no institution between man and god. The link should be direct and personal. That is what christianity conveniently forgets. The church has no place in the world of one who truly follows christ.
Cyracuz wrote:
Quote:I disagree. The god that jesus worshipped is not the god christianity worships. Jesus preached that there should be no institution between man and god. The link should be direct and personal. That is what christianity conveniently forgets. The church has no place in the world of one who truly follows christ.
Just for the sake of accuracy, could you direct me to some scripture that supports this?
Cyracuz wrote:
Frank wrote:
Quote:...the GOD of Christianity...is the GOD that Jesus worshipped.
I disagree. The god that jesus worshipped is not the god christianity worships.
Sure it is.
Quote:Jesus preached that there should be no institution between man and god.
He did???
Quote:The link should be direct and personal. That is what christianity conveniently forgets. The church has no place in the world of one who truly follows christ.
Are you sure it was Jesus who set out this policy?
It is the essence of his words. There is no chain of command, just you and god. All men are equal. Does this not sound familiar to you?
Cyracuz wrote:It is the essence of his words. There is no chain of command, just you and god. All men are equal. Does this not sound familiar to you?
No!
Snood asked you for a citation or two from scripture to back up this contention.
I second his request.
Here's something from Matthew chapter 7.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
And it goes on...
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Matthew chapter 16:
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? 12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Cyracuz wrote:Here's something from Matthew chapter 7.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
And it goes on...
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Matthew chapter 16:
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? 12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
And from these...which since you posted them in response to our request, you must consider the most substantive...you get:
Quote:Jesus preached that there should be no institution between man and god.
That is more than just a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you say, Cyracuz?
The first could just as easily be warning followers to beware of you and what you are asserting here...as of churches!
From this, you get:
Quote:The link should be direct and personal. That is what christianity conveniently forgets. The church has no place in the world of one who truly follows christ.
Well...I guess you can interpret it that way.
Christians have a tendency to interpret scripture the way that best suits their personal philosophy of right and wrong...so, it follows.
But I consider it a HUGE stretch to suppose those passages truly support any of your assertions.
Quote:But I consider it a HUGE stretch to suppose those passages truly support any of your assertions.
You are right about that. The truth is my scripture knowledge is a bit rusty, and I found these references after you asked for them.
Quote:Christians have a tendency to interpret scripture the way that best suits their personal philosophy of right and wrong...so, it follows.
Non christians also it appears.
Quote:That is more than just a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you say, Cyracuz?
Huge stretch I agree. I am convinced there is a better verse somewhere.
Quote:The first could just as easily be warning followers to beware of you and what you are asserting here...as of churches!
So it could. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. I would say that I am a bit better for it than the church since I don't have so many rotten apples in my bag.
Cyracuz wrote:
I disagree. The god that jesus worshipped is not the god christianity worships. Jesus preached that there should be no institution between man and god. The link should be direct and personal. That is what christianity conveniently forgets. The church has no place in the world of one who truly follows christ.
That's simply not true. The passage below from Matthew clearly and unambiguously shows that.
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” (Matt. 16:17-19).
