2
   

Democracy is best served by strict separation of...

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 08:13 pm
yeah. she drinks it and I bathe in it.
0 Replies
 
binnyboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Dec, 2004 12:49 am
Fox, you behave as if the majority of americans put this phrase in our pledge back in 1954. They didn't. Eisenhower, with the support of a theist and mccarthy-terrorized bunch in congress did it. And their purpose was to combat atheism. This is not about you or your touchy feely need to publicly worship in our schools. This is about Eisenhower's crime.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Dec, 2004 08:23 am
The 1954 Act can be overturned by another act of congress or declared unconstitutional by the supreme court.

Are there any other alternatives?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Dec, 2004 09:37 am
wandeljw wrote:
The 1954 Act can be overturned by another act of congress or declared unconstitutional by the supreme court.

Are there any other alternatives?


We may not want this to happen. One legal analyst I listened to was concerned that if the Supreme Court did this, that strong public support (which we've seen) of the Pledge (if not the phrase itself) would lead congress to try to amend the constitution to support the pledge. His concern was that any constitutional amendment along these lines might be written in such a way as to dillute the first amendment (whether accidentally, or intentionally).

The pledge has become part of our childhood memory, and as such, is seen much like Grandad's old leather Bible, which sits on the bookshelf and nobody reads; a fixture adored for its place in our memory but not the words it holds.

If the Supreme Court bans the phrase, and returns the pledge to its original form, then few may react, but it the court simply says that the pledge is unconstitutional in its current form, then the backlash could damage the first amendment.
0 Replies
 
ForeverYoung
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Dec, 2004 09:41 am
binnyboy wrote:
Fox, you behave as if the majority of americans put this phrase in our pledge back in 1954. They didn't. Eisenhower, with the support of a theist and mccarthy-terrorized bunch in congress did it. And their purpose was to combat atheism. This is not about you or your touchy feely need to publicly worship in our schools. This is about Eisenhower's crime.


That's absolutely correct. Inserting that stupid phrase came directly from the McCarthy-ites.
0 Replies
 
ForeverYoung
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Dec, 2004 09:45 am
rosborne979 wrote:
If the Supreme Court bans the phrase, and returns the pledge to its original form, then few may react, but it the court simply says that the pledge is unconstitutional in its current form, then the backlash could damage the first amendment.


Not to quibble, but ........ if the pledge is declared unconstitutional in its current form, how could that damage the first amendment?

Wouldn't it be upholding the principle of not establishing a State religion rather than an abridgement of free speech?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Dec, 2004 09:56 am
ForeverYoung wrote:
Not to quibble, but ........ if the pledge is declared unconstitutional in its current form, how could that damage the first amendment?


Congress has the ability to change the constitution. Suppose they change the constitution to say that the phrase "under God" and the reasons it was placed into the pledge are explicitly constitutional.... what kind of a legal effect might that have on interpretation of the First Amendment (because right now, it seems to be in conflict).
0 Replies
 
ForeverYoung
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Dec, 2004 09:58 am
rosborne979, thank you.

Yes, I agree.

I'm always looking at things as I think they should be ... forgetting there are no shoulds.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Dec, 2004 10:07 am
ForeverYoung wrote:
rosborne979, thank you.

Yes, I agree.

I'm always looking at things as I think they should be ... forgetting there are no shoulds.


This is one of those cases where you want to pick your fights carefully.

The pledge is likely to be defended by grass roots emotional fervor and not clinical/legal reasoning.
0 Replies
 
peachstate kid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2005 02:51 pm
Wow, this has been 15 pages of what seems to me to be quibbling about whether or not the Pledge of Alleigance is constitutional. Can we look at other issues such as whether or not religion should play a part in government so that decisions are made ethically or if it should play no part because since the United States is not a strict democracy? And looking at democracy, is there any current country in the world that is a strict democracy? If there isn't, then how are self proclaimed democracies supposed to be governed without religion?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2005 06:14 pm
Hi PeachStateKid, Welcome to A2K Smile

peachstate kid wrote:
Wow, this has been 15 pages of what seems to me to be quibbling about whether or not the Pledge of Alleigance is constitutional.


Killing a few termites on your floor seems like a trivial activity as well, until you find that they've hidden in the walls and consumed all the support beams and the basic structure you wanted to protect is ready to collapse.

peachstate kid wrote:
Can we look at other issues such as whether or not religion should play a part in government so that decisions are made ethically


Do you think religion is necessary in order to make an ethical decision. Which religion provides the correct ethical decision?

peachstate kid wrote:
And looking at democracy, is there any current country in the world that is a strict democracy?


I don't know.

peachstate kid wrote:
If there isn't, then how are self proclaimed democracies supposed to be governed without religion?


Why do you see a connection between democracies and religion?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2005 06:41 pm
Go Rosborne.

I was gonna chime in...but you look like you are doin' jest fine on your own.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jan, 2005 04:26 pm
Ros writes
Quote:
Killing a few termites on your floor seems like a trivial activity as well, until you find that they've hidden in the walls and consumed all the support beams and the basic structure you wanted to protect is ready to collapse.


There are two ways to look at this. Those anti-religion types who want nothing displayed, spoken, or supported in any way in the public sector seem to think their rights are diminished if religion is allowed to exist in the public sector.

Those who think it was never intended that religion and government never meet, but only that the government was not allowed to dictate or enforce what anyone must or must not believe or practice respective to religion, see all the assaults against religion as those termites methodically eating away at their constitutional right to the free excercise of their religious faith.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jan, 2005 06:25 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Ros writes
Quote:
Killing a few termites on your floor seems like a trivial activity as well, until you find that they've hidden in the walls and consumed all the support beams and the basic structure you wanted to protect is ready to collapse.


There are two ways to look at this. Those anti-religion types who want nothing displayed, spoken, or supported in any way in the public sector seem to think their rights are diminished if religion is allowed to exist in the public sector.


Yeah, Fox...but the religious types never think this out to its logical conclusion.

Give 'em an inch (a manger scene)...and they want a mile...installing their gods on our money and in a pledge of loyalty to country.

The religious types seem to think none of this should matter to the non-religious types.

So why don't we experiment with just how open minded they are...these "open-minded" religious types.

How about we change that thingy on our coins to read...We Do Not Trust In Any Gods!

How about we change that thingy in the Pledge of Allegience to "...one nation, with absolutely no loyalty to any gods..."

How do you think that would fly, Fox.

Hey...it shouldn't bother you guys, right?

Quote:
Those who think it was never intended that religion and government never meet, but only that the government was not allowed to dictate or enforce what anyone must or must not believe or practice respective to religion, see all the assaults against religion as those termites methodically eating away at their constitutional right to the free excercise of their religious faith.


Why are those of us who see "religion" as superstition supposed to have so goddam much respect for everything you religious types hold important...when you people have no respect for what we hold important?

Why?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jan, 2005 06:26 pm
Sorry, Rosborne....but I decided to chime in after all. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jan, 2005 06:30 pm
Frank writes:

Quote:
How about we change that thingy on our coins to read...We Do Not Trust In Any Gods!

How about we change that thingy in the Pledge of Allegience to "...one nation, with absolutely no loyalty to any gods..."


When the vast majority of Americans want those phrases on their money or in their plege, those phrases should be on the money and in the pledge. It's as simple as that. Would I like it personally? No, because I like it the way it is. But I am also a strong advocate in majority rule in all matters that require nothing but noninterference from anybody, which is my definition of inalienable rights.

Quote:
Why are those of us who see "religion" as superstition supposed to have so goddam much respect for everything you religious types hold important...when you people have no respect for what we hold important?


Because you want two or three to be able to dictate to the many on matters that hurt nobody and require nothing but noninterference from anybody. To me, that is not the democratic or American way.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jan, 2005 06:36 pm
Mob rule is the american way? Um now I have to go back an re-read just why and how the US Senate was created the way it was. The US House of Reps was designed for mob rule and the US Senate "the saucer that cools the heat of the mob"
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jan, 2005 06:40 pm
Try to read more selectively and without drawing conclusions from what wasn't said Dys and I think you might understand more.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jan, 2005 06:44 pm
I read just fine fox, every bit as well as you write. (possibly better)
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jan, 2005 08:01 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Frank writes:

Quote:
How about we change that thingy on our coins to read...We Do Not Trust In Any Gods!

How about we change that thingy in the Pledge of Allegience to "...one nation, with absolutely no loyalty to any gods..."


When the vast majority of Americans want those phrases on their money or in their plege, those phrases should be on the money and in the pledge. It's as simple as that. Would I like it personally? No, because I like it the way it is. But I am also a strong advocate in majority rule in all matters that require nothing but noninterference from anybody, which is my definition of inalienable rights.


No those phrases...yours or the one I suggested shouldn't be there...because they have absolutely NOTHING WHATEVER TO DO WITH THE PURPOSE OF MONEY OR THE PLEDGE.

They are there simply because people like you want to a) unnecessarily impose their will on the minority...and b) ass kiss their idiot gods.

Simply because the majority want something does not mean it should be granted.

But we've already gone though all this...and obviously you have no intention of even attempting to understand.

It is people like you that make people like me so adament in opposition.

Using your reasoning...we could have "one nation, predominantly white".

This nation is not a tyranny of majority.


Quote:


Quote:
Why are those of us who see "religion" as superstition supposed to have so goddam much respect for everything you religious types hold important...when you people have no respect for what we hold important?


Because you want two or three to be able to dictate to the many on matters that hurt nobody and require nothing but noninterference from anybody. To me, that is not the democratic or American way.


Well...it is obvious that you do not understand "the American way."

And just who the hell are you to decide whether or not it hurts anyone? Fact of the matter is...if you could just open up that closed mind of yours...you'd see that it HURTS everyone...you included.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
Paradigm shifts - Question by Cyracuz
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 05/21/2024 at 06:12:01