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ACLU has problems with Anti-Terror Bill - What a Surprise!

 
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 11:00 pm
Name one case of abuse of civil liberties due to the Patriot Act, besides Padilla (and I really don't consider that to be abuse).
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 11:21 pm
I do. A citizen is a citizen is a citizen; if they can treat him that way then they can treat you that way.

The Patriot Act itself is an erosion of civil liberties. It grants more power to the gov't and takes power away from the ordinary citizens.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 12:14 am
Not surprisingly, Asherman's take is spot on. In due time the matter will find itself before the Supreme Court for review. In the mean time, the legislators are doing their best to protect the public from would-be mass-murderers. Personally, I'm glad they took some time off from other compelling issues, like passing out money for drought relief to desert dwellers.

DrewDad wrote:
I do. A citizen is a citizen is a citizen; if they can treat him that way then they can treat you that way.

The Patriot Act itself is an erosion of civil liberties. It grants more power to the gov't and takes power away from the ordinary citizens.
The government can not do that to me without cause. Nothing I've ever done, shown in any light, would convince a grand jury to indict me on charges of terrorism. If some smooth talking sleazebag proved me wrong, I have faith that a randomly selected Judge would recognize the error and correct it as the act allows. As Asherman pointed out, given time the system will work out the kinks. In the mean time, it's naïve to think the legislators could possibly produce legislation worded in such a way that it would be acceptable to all. This is the system.

I also find it preposterous that a "no bail" inclusion here is considered erosion, when it's already been applied to other capital offenses, let alone drug charges. And, for what it's worth, suggestions that continuing this trend is tantamount to doing away with the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" is a hysterical response.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 01:07 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
I do. A citizen is a citizen is a citizen; if they can treat him that way then they can treat you that way.


The government can not do that to me without cause. Nothing I've ever done, shown in any light, would convince a grand jury to indict me on charges of terrorism.


And if they mistake you for some other person?

Jose Padilla: No Charges and No Trial, Just Jail

Quote:
Consider this specious logic, endorsed by the Bush administration: Under the Sixth Amendment, the right to counsel does not apply until charges are filed. The government has not charged Padilla. Ordinarily, U.S. citizens cannot be detained without charge. But the administration has avoided that technicality by designating Padilla as an "enemy combatant," then proclaiming that the court may not second-guess his designation.

Essentially, on orders of the executive branch, anyone could wind up imprisoned by the military with no way to assert his innocence. That frightening prospect was echoed by J. Harvie Wilkinson, the respected and steadfastly conservative chief judge of the Fourth Circuit. In a case involving another U.S. citizen, Yaser Hamdi, Wilkinson warned, "With no meaningful judicial review, any American citizen alleged to be an enemy combatant could be detained indefinitely without charges or counsel."


That fact that you consider it unlikely does not take away from the fact you are handing over your life to the federal government.

Note that this happened before the legislation discussed here.

Hysteria? I think not. I'm not running around crying or fleeing for the hills. On the other hand, I'm not burying my head in the sand insisting the federal government really has my best interests at heart.

Quote:
Padilla may deserve the treatment he is receiving -- perhaps worse. That is not the point. When Americans are taken into custody, they have the right to retain an attorney. Congress must first set the rules. Then an impartial judge, not the president, should make the ultimate decision as to whether the arrest and imprisonment comport with the Constitution. James Madison, in Federalist No. 47, put it succinctly: "The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands ... may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 08:23 am
So, in a country of some 300 million, we have one case of one person who may have been illegally incarcerated.

Yes, hysterical seems to be the operative word here.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 08:39 am
DrewDad wrote:
I do. A citizen is a citizen is a citizen; if they can treat him that way then they can treat you that way.

The Patriot Act itself is an erosion of civil liberties. It grants more power to the gov't and takes power away from the ordinary citizens.


agreed.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 09:31 am
DrewDad wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
I do. A citizen is a citizen is a citizen; if they can treat him that way then they can treat you that way.


The government can not do that to me without cause. Nothing I've ever done, shown in any light, would convince a grand jury to indict me on charges of terrorism.


And if they mistake you for some other person?

Jose Padilla: No Charges and No Trial, Just Jail
It seems to me, Jose Padilla may have benefited from this new legislation, had it been passed before his capture. The government was scrambling to come up with ways to protect Joe Citizen after an attack that demonstrated our collective head was "buried in the sand". Since they could find no more appropriate legislaiton at the time of his arrest, Padilla may well have suffered civil rights violations. Isn't that part of why this new bill is important? And, from that percpective, couldn't it accurately be described as a restoration of civil rights?


DrewDad wrote:
That fact that you consider it unlikely does not take away from the fact you are handing over your life to the federal government.

Note that this happened before the legislation discussed here.
Note this consideration yourself, and you're forced to concede that I'm not handing the government anything they don't demonstrably already have. In fact, the government is taking a step towards correcting the flaw in our system that you disapprove of. Again, that is the system.

DrewDad wrote:
Hysteria? I think not. I'm not running around crying or fleeing for the hills. On the other hand, I'm not burying my head in the sand insisting the federal government really has my best interests at heart.
A hysterical response isn't predicated on your hysteria (I've made that erroneous assumption before, too). I made no comment about your mental state whatsoever. :wink:

DrewDad wrote:
Quote:
Padilla may deserve the treatment he is receiving -- perhaps worse. That is not the point. When Americans are taken into custody, they have the right to retain an attorney. Congress must first set the rules. Then an impartial judge, not the president, should make the ultimate decision as to whether the arrest and imprisonment comport with the Constitution. James Madison, in Federalist No. 47, put it succinctly: "The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands ... may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."
I agree with everything in this paragraph… and it is covered by this corrective piece of legislation, no? Padilla came after what is widely considered an unprecedented attack on the United States. In such an emergency, I have no problem with my government being a little creative in finding ways to protect me. The ACLU and groups like it will fight any excesses, tooth and nail, until the safety of my person and sanctity of my rights are once again in harmony. That is[i/] the system… showing off, in my opinion. Idea
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 10:24 pm
Quote:
The ACLU and groups like it will fight any excesses, tooth and nail, until the safety of my person and sanctity of my rights are once again in harmony. That is[i/] the system… showing off, in my opinion.


Well, this was nice to read. Cool
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 11:54 pm
JustWonders wrote:
So, in a country of some 300 million, we have one case of one person who may have been illegally incarcerated.


One person who's been illegally incarcerated for two years. And yes, one is too many. Especially when the PATRIOT Act specifies that non-citizens can only be held for seven days without being charged.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 07:44 am
I didn't know the patriot act says that. Are there still suspects being held without charge for months like there was today? If so, what excuse do they give and how come they get away with it if the law says that they can't do that?
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 07:47 am
So you're living in fear of the Gestapo? Tsk. Tsk. What a shame.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 12:02 pm
JustWonders wrote:
So you're living in fear of the Gestapo? Tsk. Tsk. What a shame.


As always, revert to the tired tactic of attempting to ridicule the opposition when you can't come up with a logical argument. Rolling Eyes
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