How are Math and Music related?

I think it would be the theory behind music--the scales, techniques, tempo, etc.

Music is more hand-to-eye coordinated, but in math, all you do is sit and think about it.

In ways, music has an emotional side to it because if it is good, then people will dance, cry or laugh, but the technique and idea behind it would probably be the logical part of it--in order to make people dance, you would have to understand the logic behind it. Math is more logical, so you might say the techniques in music are an application of math.

Here's one area...very superficially.

The Nashville numbering system is a form of music notation where the chords are represented by numbers instead of letters. The number shows how a chord relates to the notes of a major scale of a particular key.

Here is a C major scale, and each note gets a number.

C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7


In the Nashville numbering system you might see something like this.

1///|4///|5///|1///

That translates to these chords.

C///|F///|G///|C///

You will use chord modifiers, like m, 7, sus2 etc to tell what type of chord will be played. So if you see something like this.....

1///|2m///|5///|1///|

.....it translates to this....

C///|Dm///|G///|C///

I think it's more than that. I'm looking for a link....

Interval. Music consists of sound patterned both in time and in pitch, both of which can be represented abstractly by numbers. With the use of numbers the patterns can have predictive qualities that can be represented and manipulated mathematically. The pythagoreans were big on this and thought it had not only empirical but supernatural qualities.

This might be a good place to start: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~siglind/wtc-00b-intro.htm

Here's what I was looking for. It's very very interesting.

http://www.ee.umd.edu/~blj/algorithmic_composition/icmc.95.html

Music is unconscious counting. You hear rhythm in relation to what preceeded it in terms of how the notes fall into the meter.

A lot of Bach is about number games. Fascinating stuff if you're interested.

Yes...the Well Tempered Clavier for example

Thanks for the posts, but I still don't get it.

I see that math has counting in it, and music has rhythm which is maybe unconscious counting. Math communicates something, and so does Music, but then again, facial expression communicates something, and so does Written language, and written language also has rhythm to it.

Why would people say that music is more related to math than they might say music is related to speaking? All things have similarities, but what is it people seem to think is special about the qualities of music and math?

I don't understand this "Tempered Clavier" thing yet. I'll have to read it in more detail.

By the way, I'm not a musician. I used to play the drums in High School marching band, but I never learned to read musical scales (other than rudimentary introductions in elementary school).

Thanks,

Re: How are Math and Music related?
"Math and Music are related".

I think this relation has been exagerated since Pythagoras.
There are numeric elements in music: rhythm is a formal and conventional relation between durations, and in Classic Harmony accords are organized by consonant relations. Even in serial music there are numeric relations - the 12 degrees of the chromatic scale.
But those numeric relations are only external relations. They don't mean anything if not applied in a musical work.
And a composer who chooses a given rhythm - for instant a simple 3/4 - is not making a mathematical choice, but a musical one. He has a musical idea and chooses the rhythm, or the tonality - or the serial sequence - that allows him to give expression to his musical idea.
The same thing about symmetrical mouvements. Many composers, like Haydn, Beethoven and in the XX century, Bartok, Carter, created works based in a perfect symmetry - Beethoven's "Heroica", Haydn's Quartet opus 74 nº 3, Bartok's "Music for strings, percussion and celesta" or Elliott Carter's 3rd Quartet. But in all those cases, symmetry must be looked as a musical element in order to achieve a musical structure.
No composer - with the possible exception of Xenakis - when composing is measuring the number of bars or the acustic relation between an accord of 5th or 4th.
In my opinnion, mathematic is only an external reference in the elaboration of musical theory - of Rhythm, Harmony, Canon - but has no place is musical creation.

I always thought it just meant that in learning music you are learning math. You have to know a quarter note, 8th note, 16th note, etc. and that correlates to math fractions. If you know that a whole note is a certain length, you have to know how to divide it (as in what fraction of the whole it is) in order to play a 16th note.

Maybe it's just this simple, and I always thought it was something deeper. I don't know.

Has anybody ever seen the movie Pi? It entertains the idea that everything in the world can be represented by some set of numbers.
Also, music is all about patterns and sometimes you can think of notes as multiples. For example, a D-note can be deep pitched or high. So the pitch would be a multiple of the note maybe. I'm kinda making this up so bear with me. Just like 3 is a multiple of six. There is certainly a correlation between the two, they must be somehow related.

There's Geometry in the scale patterns on the guitar neck. There's math in the intervals of the different scales and modes. And also in the chord movements as they relate to a musical piece. And as Squinney pointed out: in rhythm.
Not mind numbing deep math mind you...just simple arithmatic.

All I see in both is an endless array of patterns.

I dunno how it works but people in my family can play by ear(daugher started very young). My daughter plays the piano, keyboard, and drums well and what ever else they want her to @ band which she does not like much.
During her six years of piano lessons the teacher always said he could not believe how well she could understand theory - beyond her years. She's ok at regular math but not as good as the Mrs. (well she's awesome can play by ear also)

(my only talent for music is my voice)

been thinking about owning that dvd

That's a good definition of math. :wink: