Major influences on "modern" art?: Your thoughts.

Merriam Webster (she's usually right):

Main Entry: ou·tré
Pronunciation: ü-'trA
Function: adjective
Etymology: French, from past participle of outrer to carry to excess
: violating convention or propriety : BIZARRE

Used in a sentence:

Outre can you see.

Thank you for the precise definition, Lightwizard. MWebster shows that you are on a good track when you say that "the roots of modern art [can be] outre."
I read an article this past summer about the exhausted mother of a extremely bright child. She noted that her 7-year-old did not need much sleep and that his philosophy seemed to be "anything worth doing is worth doing to excess."
There would seem to be, among the roots of modern art, a number of excessive figures--with the fresh vision of children--violating convention and propriety: Duchamp, one of them. And, perhaps, because he was SO outre, Picasso created what you call his cul-de-sac.

Good, LW and Miklos. THAT'S serious. How about some more examples of artists who were outre? Soutine, Modigliani, Gauguin, Van Gogh, and Warhol are obvious examples.

Francis Bacon

Osso, I wanted to add Bacon's name but couldn't remember it. That's the way it is with names these days. Schiele's name just came to me. Then there's the weirdest of them all, Rockwell. Sorry, I said I would be serious.
Dali and Schnabel wanted to be outre; they just came off to me as weirdness entrepreneurs. Not really weird--unless wanting to be weird is weird.

It's hard to be always wried.

To be more concise, the roots or influences of past art on new art is not necessarily that the art is outre even though that's admitedly true. It's trying to untangle the details of the evolution. The links between one art movement and another can and usually does tell a tale that defies any logic. Keith Haring, for instance, took us all back to the brevity of line of the ancient cave paintings but one can discern a remarkable similarity to Georges Rouault.

Haring and Rouault? What do I not see here? I find Haring's cartoons vacuous but Rouault's portraits and religious scenes profound and breath-takingly beautiful. I am looking at repros of his work right now in a great book (Rouault, Fabrice Hergott. Ediciones Poligrafra, S.A. 1991). Looking through it always throws me into an aesthetic mood that almost religious in tone. Haring is, to me, quite the opposite. Yet, given your knowledge of art, I am a bit insecure in my certainty. So I repeat, what am I missing?

I'm with jln in not appreciating Haring at all - I don't see any link with cave paintings - which are beautiful, fluid, with incredible life and observation and use of contours of rock as well as the lovely fluid line - Haring's work is simplistic and merely outlined and - yes vacuous - to me too.

Dancing jelly babies don't reach me at all beyond being cute at a shallow soon forgotten level

.... what am I missing?

You're missing the heavy black outlines and the iconic focus of both artists but not particularly the ideals of the art. Haring is decidedly non-religious. Cave paintings were effectively the street painting of those ancient people. They observed and committed the imagery in the crude line drawings that have been found today. I'm not buying the "lovely fluid line" very well. They are childlike and pleasantly unsophisticated, something one can say about Haring's work. You're giving a critical assessment of the work which has very little to do with the technique and stylistic links. I don't find Haring vacuous in the least but that's the old one man's meat is another man's poison. I know Robert Hughes wasn't very kind and there was a brief confrontation between him and Leo Castelli over the stature of Haring's work. In this case, I'm more trusting of Castelli's eye.

Didn't I write the links were outre?

Egon Schiele, with his in-your-face subjects, brilliant draftsmanship--and his short and very messy life, quite often, sadly, an attention-grabber--surely must have been a significant influence in modern northern-European art. I lack the expertise in that area to draw any lines of connection. Maybe, one of you can.

Schiele's drawings and watercolors remind me of Rodin's, the latter not in wide enough distribution to set much in motion, however.

While I'm in territory largely unfamiliar to me, do you think that Klimt and Munch--both of whom I really admire--had influences that reach beyond Scandanavia?

About three years ago, I went to a large exhibition of Keith Haring in Miami, which included many of his childhood drawings, which he collected in composition books. My wife and I both found Haring's work infectiously celebratory of life--even the darker aspects of life--but we saw little evolution, except in clarity of form, from the early characters in his notebooks.

As for links to cave painting, I would suggest that artistic dead-ender Picasso, who was one of the first visitors to Altamira--and was astounded. Maybe, with Picasso, it is much easier to consider all that he absorbed, rather than to contemplate influences he might have projected. I do agree with Lightwizard that Picasso is not going to spawn successful experimenters in his particular styles; however, I do believe that Picasso's extraordinary manipulations of form must have been, at least metaphorically, an inspiration to some.

Dali as "weirdness entrepreneur"? YES! Well said, JLN. Talent wasted through trying overly hard to be strange. Outre-plus=embarrassing public spectacle?

You're onto something, Miklos. Picasso's famous drawing of the bull which he evolved by drawing a fully realistic depiction of the subject and then baring it down to the essential lines of the figure proves it. Of course, cartoon and graffitti art's whole premise is reducing everything down to essential lines and colors. Aronson devoted a whole new chapter to the college textbook "The History of Modern Art" because of Haring, among other artists in the genre. Kenny Scharf melded the genre with the wild surealistic imagery drawn from Dali, et al. It may not be an accident that Scharf and Haring were roomates in art school.

So, at least, a connection can be drawn (sic) from Picasso to Haring. Haring, however, is not aping Picasso. Also, Picasso's first drawing of the bull is just as satisfying as the appreviated image.

Klimt was an influence on Schiele and I definitely think Schiele's work had a strong influence in Europe - I see the influence (but used in their own distiinctive way, along with other influences) in the work of Lucian Freud and Maggi Hambling - both are brilliantly incisive with their drawing, creating a real character.

Sadly there are only a limited number of online images of their work and these are not always the ones I would choose to post to illustrate my point. Hambling is a sculptor and both of them sculpt the figure with their marks in the way that Schiele did.

I agree about Dali.

I'm not persuaded about Haring yet.

link to a Maggi Hambling image - rather small
the small size doesn't do justice to this piece

Miklos7 welcome to A2k so wonderful to hear from you again.

The artists here at A2k and at the other sight have been my inspiration. With all their encouragement, advice, and patience I would have quit trying many times.

Thank you, JoanneDorel. It's very good to be here again.

Vivien, thanks so much for the link to Maggi Hambling, new to me. She is wonderful, and I can, indeed, see a connection via sculpting technique with Schiele. I had not though of a Schiele link to Lucien Freud, whose work I know reasonably well, but I can see that, too. You are very astute. Thank you for pointing these out. I must now find more Hambling on-line--hoping to discover that some of her work is in Boston, the city my wife and I'll visit for our annual early- spring art tour. Last March, we focused on eastern NY and MASS, taking in the Williams Art Gallery and The Clark Museum in Williamstown, The Berkshire Museum, Mass MoCA, Dia Beacon, and The Norman Rockwell Museum. A wondrous mish-mash. We decided that Rockwell painted quite well--a nice surprise--and that our suspicions about VERY large installation art may have been well-founded: at both Mass MoCA and Dia Beacon, the buildings (former factories) had more impact than most of the painting and sculpture they displayed. One powerful exception was an installation artist who works in neon and fluorescent tubing. His work expanded into the huge space. His name is on the tip of my mind right now, but I can't see it. Perhaps, you know of him.

Did my e-message reach you? Sometimes, when I write to former students in England and France, there are glitches. If it didn't come, I'll try again!

Hambling's oil painting of Max with Onde, is a find DRAWING (with oils). Any connection with Kathe Kollwitz?

Haring's larger works is what did it for me and the series of garden sculptures from his iconic imagery.

Is that Dan Flavin's work, Miklos?

Have you seen any of the cave paintings in situ? believe me, they are beautiful fluid lines, with an incredibly sophisticated and clever use of the natural rock form to enhance the swell of muscles and movement. They aren't crude at all. I'm only arguing the point that there is no link between cave art and Haring in response to your feeling that there is- now cave art and Schiele have more in common. (Rouffignac, Lascaux and Font de Gaumme (?sp) are the ones I've visited and they were absolutely beautiful and awe inspiring in their sophistication, not childlike simplicity. (if you've seen the originals and still feel the same then we'll just have to agree that one man's meat...)

They really aren't childlike at all, that is one of the things that amazed me when I stood in front of them - the reproductions lose a lot of the original's quality - and remember they have had centuries to lose some of their original subtlety as well. It is incredible that they have survived at all, so many must have been lost. The lines vary in thickness and tone and are not a simple crude outline, they blur or are sharp in an intellectually considered way.

I didn't know that Huges slated Haring - I have a certain amount of respect for his views so that is cheering!

I find Haring's work childlike and illustrational - suitable for a children's story but not an art gallery, with nothing to sustain the interest. In contrast cave paintings are sustaining and I would LOVE to have one on my wall! I don't think I am criticising the link you suggest unfairly - I just don't agree with a link at all! I think a better link for Haring's art would be the Mister Men books

link to one image

the url says 'bull' but this is a horse/pony

look at the lovely way the colour shows the form and the way the lines don't totally surround the form in a childlike way as with Haring.

You'll probably totally disagree with this but such is art

Miklos - no I haven't had an email (and I'd love to) I'll pm you a couple of addresses

I do think by the way that Picasso's bulls show a lot of influence from cave paintings - the simplifying down to the essential qualities is precisely what the stone age painters achieved ( but I like theirs better!).


I'm glad you liked Hambling and saw the links I felt.

Her work is very interesting and varied and she pushes the boundaries and experiments in an interesting and challenging way - she did a series of paintings on laughs - different kinds of laughs - it isn't on the net and I don't know where they can be found but they were interesting.

She does also 'paint' in oils as well as draw. Her series on Max Wall, an old music hall comedian- turned actor, were incisive and moving and she did a wonderful series on a jazz singer (gay) friend bringing out the outrageous side of his nature.


jln I don't know of any direct link with Kathe Kollowicz but I can see why you ask - they are both very good at getting under the skin of people's emotions.

there were so many interesting points made that I may have missed answering someone - if I did forgive me and tell me! I've edited this about 4 times already adding bits

Viv, you are so fortunate to have actually seen the cave paintings. They are so beautiful and I agree fluid.

My first real painting was on organic sedimentary rock in Texas. They took me places I did not think I could go with painting and finally gave me the courage to try canvas and now I am learning to use water color.

PS I recently tried painting on the igneous rocks found in and around San Diego and it does not work the same because they are so smooth. The layers of sediment calcified and adhere to the fossils in the rock in the Permian basin were a real inspiration.


Waving to Viv,Osso, LW, and JLN I have missed my patient teachers so much.