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Voting Values or Keeping us Safe from Boy Scouts

 
 
princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2004 03:31 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

Princess, I am assuming your questions re uniform were not addressed to me as I don't believe I have commented on such.


Actually, it was in your OP, Foxy. Didn't you read the whole article?
Quote:

Keeping us safe from Boy Scouts
We certainly don't want the military mixing with good kids
06:43 PM CST on Friday, November 19, 2004
By JAMES LILEKS

Move over, OBL -- our new national threat comes from the BSA. They're a strange, religiously oriented group that's stated purposes ought to make your blood run as cold as chilled mercury. We've had remarkable success in recent years keeping them from undermining American power, thanks to the U.S. military. But now it's official, and what was once a shadowy war is out in the open.

The Pentagon has informed all bases not to sponsor the Boy Scouts of America.

Not that they ever have, mind you. Says the Associated Press: "The Pentagon said it has long had a rule against sponsorship of non-federal organizations and denied the rule had been violated. But it agreed to send a message to posts worldwide warning them not to sponsor Boy Scout troops or other such groups."

So we're still in danger. It's possible that in some distant base in a flat, empty state, some rogue officer might horribly commingle Boy Scouts and his official duties -- say, showing up in uniform to teach the Webelos the Pledge of Allegiance.

Why is this bad? Simple: The Scouts make you swear an oath that mentions the Big Guy. Here's the marrow-curdling vow in its entirety, brazenly posted on a Web site they use to communicate with other cells. Ready?

"On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight."

Whew. Strong stuff. The God part is bad enough, but the "morally straight" line is the big cherry on the cake. But remember, please: The Scouts are a private organization; they have the right to believe what they wish, even if you disagree.

And we're talking about the Boy Scouts, for heaven's sake, not some Junior Klan League noted for torchlight parades through Jewish neighborhoods. Who has the time to worry whether the Scouts are meeting in the local library? Isn't there some real, actual evil handy you could sue?

Since the last election, we've been told that right-wing theoreticians concoct divisive social issues in secret underground labs and release them into the body politic every election cycle, clouding the minds of red-state sheep. But the Boy Scouts haven't been suing anyone for the right to hold compulsory God and country rallies in schools across the land. The

American Civil Liberties Union is forcing the issue.

The people barging into the courts are the ones obsessed that Boy Scouts might be using public school rooms after hours to learn knot tying. And Scouts drive on public roads to get there, too. They even breathe air whose quality is mandated by federal regulations that take public money to enforce. Theocratic parasites, that's what they are. What's next? A 900-foot statue of Jesus on the Mall in Washington?

This may be the face of the hard, foamy left, but it's not the view of your average Democrat. Throwing the Scouts into an electrified pen that keeps them from contaminating government is not high on the list of your average Democratic concerns.

Ask one. Why are you a Democrat? "Because I believe in good jobs, health care for all, more diplomacy and strong public schools."
And you oppose the Boy Scouts, right? "What? No. My kid's a scout."
But the ACLU has practically declared them a hate group. Got the Pentagon to promise no official connections. And you'll still vote Democratic? "Count on it, friend."

Then one day his kid's Wolf Pack gets denied a permit to hold a party in a public park.

And thus do blue folks see red.

James Lileks writes for the Minneapolis Star Tribune. His e-mail address is [email protected].
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/viewpoints/stories/112004dnedilileks.5013.html


0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2004 03:46 pm
Oh THAT comment. It didn't even occur to me that would be a problem.
0 Replies
 
princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2004 03:52 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Oh THAT comment. It didn't even occur to me that would be a problem.


You don't think it makes your point,
Quote:


Ever wonder why the middle of the country is so red after election day? Well, in my opinion, the following is one of the big reasons. At some point, where do we stop the insanity and start being reasonable about some of this stuff? Ignore the values of middle America at your peril I think,
seem somewhat ridiculous? What isn't reasonable about expecting a person in the military to follow the rules of conduct they contract to follow? Doesn't it follow that the whole government should do likewise? Confused
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2004 06:39 pm
Well Princess, if anybody see a huge problem with some soldier in uniform coming home from his post and stopping in to visit the scout troop meeting in the mess hall, he or she is far more fixated on minutae than I would care to deal with. I personally see no difference in that than if the guy was a fireman or a policeman or bus driver in uniform. But if the people who turned the blue states blue do see things like that as some kind of sinister right wing plot to overturn the Constitution and make it mandatory for everybody to attend Wednsday night prayer meetings, I will look forward to the nation being very very red for a very long time to come.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2004 06:39 pm
bump (double post)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2004 05:29 pm
Well now, let's see if the ACLU gets involved in this one:

Quote:
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A California teacher has been barred by his school from giving students documents from American history that refer to God -- including the Declaration of Independence.

Steven Williams, a fifth-grade teacher at Stevens Creek School in the San Francisco Bay area suburb of Cupertino, sued for discrimination on Monday, claiming he had been singled out for censorship by principal Patricia Vidmar because he is a Christian.

More . . .

http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6911883
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2004 06:30 pm
It doesn't sound like this article tells the whole story.

As Proverbs 18:17 says

Quote:

The first to present his case seems right,
till another comes forward and questions him.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2004 07:16 pm
I don't know whether it does or not. I do know I heard about it from two different radio news sources this afternoon. The teacher was teaching about the Pilgrims and people coming to America for religious freedom and how that got written into the Declaration of Independence and was told that she could teach anything about religion.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2004 03:40 pm
From my time teaching I know three things...

1) Public school is a government institution, and teachers are agents of the government. Students are required to attend school and for many kids, public schools are the only option.

For this reason, a teacher promoting religion in any way is absolutely inappropriate. Of course, anyone has the right to free expression-- but, when teachers are acting as teachers they must be very careful to not express religion.

I know Evangelical Christian teachers who are aware of this responsibility and are very careful to respect their public trust.

2) Most, school administrations make a good effort to maintain a professional relationship with their teachers. It is unlikely that an administration would interfere in the classroom unless there was a real problem.

3) Many teachers, even in very progressive (read "liberal") communities address religion. Even those who us who care the most about civil rights don't care, provided that religious ideas are taught in a responsible way. This means that the teacher can not promote any one religion over others.

I don't believe there is any history class that does not address the religion of the Pilgrims. My 6th grade son brought home a copy of "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" as part of his curriculum (this from a school in the liberal bastion of Cambridge Massachusetts).
---

Based on this, there are a couple of possibilities. It could be that this is a school administration with an adversarial relationship with their teachers and an hypersensitive view of civil rights.

It also seems quite possible that this teacher did cross the line from teaching about religion-- and promoting it.

If this is the case the school has a constitutionally based responsibility to intervene with this teacher.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2004 03:46 pm
Anyone looked at the ACLU's position on these matters?
I went to their website as a result of this thread.
Interesting reading.
I definitely learned a lot.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Nov, 2004 06:51 am
I am very familiar with and a regular visitor to http://www.aclu.org/ and am a former card-carrying member. However stated positions and actual practices can be very different, and my current quarrel with the ACLU is the uneven emphasis with which defense of liberties is applied as well as what I consider incorrect and/or inappropriate interpretation and application of certain principles of freedom.

I completely agree with ebrown that it is entirely inappropriate and a violation of the Constitution for a teacher to promote any religion in school. I adamently object, however, that teaching children about the nation's religious heritage and history and/or giving children a copy of the Declaration of Independence promotes anything other than an understanding of the nation's history.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Nov, 2004 08:54 am
Bashing the Boy Scouts
One group whose First Amendment rights the ACLU opposes.

Friday, November 26, 2004 12:01 a.m. EST

Legal historians may someday explain how the once-great American Civil Liberties Union came to see the Boy Scouts as public enemy number one. In the meantime, the ACLU keeps on bringing its absurd First Amendment challenges against the Scouts. The Defense Department is the latest defendant to throw in the towel.

The issue this time is the status of Scout troops on military bases. Most troops have institutional sponsors, and the military has traditionally performed this function for troops on bases, especially overseas where other options aren't readily available. The ACLU claims this is religious discrimination because the Boy Scouts require members to believe in God.

That argument received a boost last week when the Defense Department agreed to issue an all-points reminder that official sponsorship of Boy Scout troops is against departmental rules. The edict is unlikely to have much practical effect, since most troops can continue under private sponsorship. But the PR effect is immense. Defense admitted no guilt--a subtlety that went mostly unnoticed in the media rush to report the ACLU's "victory."

If all this weren't silly enough, another part of the ACLU lawsuit uses the same church-state argument to object to the famous Boy Scout Jamboree, held since 1981 at Fort A.P. Hill in Virginia. This time the military is willing to fight the charges, which eventually will be decided by a federal court in Illinois. The Scouts receive no direct financial support from the Army for the Jamboree--though the ACLU contends there are indirect costs involved.

But so what? The military earns a lot of public goodwill and A.P. Hill's soldiers learn a thing or two in helping to put up a temporary city and police 35,000 energetic teenage males. The Army even comes out ahead financially. The Scouts expect to spend $29 million on next year's Jamboree--and that's on top of the $12 million or more that they've already put into the base's permanent infrastructure. The military and other civilian groups make use of those facilities when the Scouts aren't there, which is all but nine days every four years.





Ever since the Supreme Court upheld the Scouts' First Amendment right to bar Scoutmasters who are openly gay, the ACLU has looked for softer targets. The suit against the military is one of a series aimed at getting communities to deny access to public facilities. The original lawsuit also challenged the city of Chicago's sponsorship of troops in public schools, another venue where sponsors aren't always easy to find. The city settled.
In Connecticut the ACLU has succeeded in getting the state to remove the Scouts from the list of charitable institutions to which public employees may make voluntary contributions. And earlier this year it settled a suit against the city of San Diego, which agreed to evict the Scouts from a public park they have been using since 1918. The Scouts countersued, lost, and the case is now on appeal before the Ninth Circuit.

The question no one seems to be asking is, who's better off as a result of these lawsuits? Surely not the 3.2 million Boy Scouts, whose venerable organization is part of the web of voluntary associations once considered the bedrock of American life. If anything, the purpose of the ACLU attacks is to paint Scouts as religious bigots. Other losers are communities themselves, which are forced to sever ties to an organization that helps to build character in young men.

It's been 20 years since the ACLU brought its first suit against the Scouts. If there's one thing we've learned by now, it's that the ACLU offensive says more about the degraded status of the civil liberties group than it does about the Boy Scouts.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005946
0 Replies
 
 

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