PATRIOT ACT

Oh geez.

Will try to catch that tonight. Thanks.

Here's a thread with links to the whole text of the act:

Link to "Patriot II"

At first I wanted to look through the bill, and then I thought: "What for? Except the small details on implementation it is quite clear what can it be all about". You simply have not realized that the World War Three has already started. It resembles the WWII not more than the latter resembled Napoleonic wars in terms of tactics. We cannot even define exact date of its having started: some will define it as 09.11.01, another will link it to bombing of USS Cole or U.S. embassies in Africa, etc.
This war was overlooked by the general public since its main battles do not occur on the battlefields; the enemy realized that it cannot defeat the Western world in conventional battles, and it resorted to another tactics, moving battlefield to the cities of the rival. No front line, no military uniform, no defined HQs... And the enemy is trying to turn the Western world advantages into its weapon, abusing such basic features as democracy, freedom of speech, protection of individual rights, judicial procedures, etc.
When the WWI ended, France tried to prepare herself to the future war. The authorities supposed that the future war would be similar to the previous one, so they built a strong fortifications line on its Eastern border. But the war proved to be mobile rather than positional, and it took several weeks to the European superpower to be completely defeated.
The U.S. government makes attempts to prepare to resist the enemy in accordance with the character of the current war, it tries to deprive the enemy of advantages it abuses. And some people try to prevent the government from doing this.
It is not a problem that contents of the bill will be known to the enemies. This will not add anything to their abilities: they will not know who, when and how performs surveillance. The problem is that the bill's content became open to the general public. Now the enemy will make the maximum effort in abusing public opinion in order not to permit the bill to become a law. The features that may look annoying to the general public, are deadly to the enemy.
And, IMHO, the people that managed to obtain the text of the bill and published it on the Web site, committed a treason. Maybe, they did not do this deliberately; they were concerned about individual rights of their compatriots, and did not think about the service they rendered to the deadly enemies of their countries. And maybe, some Arab/Muslim foundation stands behind this strategic PR actions; individual rights are the last concern of theirs (just look how these rights are being provided to the citizens of the Muslim world), but they know well psychology of the Western liberals, and they abuse their best features.
People, the war has already started, it is necessary to be cautious for not to assist to the enemy by mistake.[/u]

steissd

I do know of your personal background only by what you have posted here openly.

I really must admit to be glad to live in country with no secret bills at all.
We call this here democracy, and I'm one of those, who are willing to defend this. If necessary, with my life, since I don't want to live in a state that has been here before.

steissed- Not too long ago I started a thread on "Fourth Generation Warfare". It went over like a lead balloon. I am going to again, post a link to the original article, which was written in 1989.

I wish everyone would read this, and attempt to understand what is happening in the world:
Link to 4th Generation Warfare

Thanks for the link, Phoenix. That is what is taking place right now. Therefore, weapons used for defence of democracies include certain legal restrictions that may prevent enemy from abusing the openness of the Western society.
Mr. Hinteler, it may be better to temporarily sacrifice a part of the democratic freedoms until the war is being won, than to wake up one morning in the Islamic Republic of Europe. And I am not so sure that there are no secret bills in Germany or any other democratic country. Maybe, their authorities did not fail in keeping secrets.
The enemy is ready to cynically abuse the core values of the democratic society, because, from the enemy's standpoint these values are void.

I don't know how anyone is supposed to--or thinks he or she can--make intelligent comments regarding the contents of a "secret" document that we can not consult for ourselves.

Bills are valid here only when published in the "Bundesgesetzblatt".

The only other possibilty is the "State of Defense".
Acting then is regulated by the 'Grundgesetz' (basic law):
STATE OF DEFENSE, Art. 115a-115l

(BTW: when this was introduced, it was the first time that I started a demonstration - they nearly throw me of school for this.)

Mr. Hinteler, unfortunately I cannot provide a link, since I read this in the printed media long ago. When the documents of the DDR General Staff HQ became accessible to the BRD high brass after reunification of Germany, the Westerners realized that in absence of intervention of superpowers it would take to the DDR army 72-120 hours to conquer BRD by means of the well-known "Blitzkrieg" tactics. While the Western leaders would discuss and vote, the DDR troops would advance to the West.
In case of war that threatens the very existence of the system, it is necessary to reduce some procedural moments and to act.
Individual and political rights and freedoms may be restored after the enemy is defeated: people in the Western countries want these to exist. But if the enemy wins, this will be the end of free society. [/size]

steissd

We live in a democracy here:

German Basic Law
BASIC RIGHTS

Article 1 (Protection of human dignity).
(1) The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it is the duty of all state authority. (2) The German people therefore acknowledge inviolable and inalienable human rights as the basis of every community, of peace and of justice in the world. (3) The following basic rights bind the legislature, the executive and the judiciary as directly enforceable law.

BASIC LAW for the Federal Republic of Germany
(There have been only minor amendments since 1990, so you surely can read the English version.)

tres: the entire document is available at www.publicintegrity.org but keep in mind it is a 12 MB document

OK, Mr. Hinteler, I think that special surveillance techniques should be developed that will not offend dignity of the people being monitored: I mean that the person must not feel that he is being checked. Any information obtained that does not relate to the monitored person's terrorist and/or major criminal activities (like his/her everyday habits, sexual contacts, misdemeanors, etc.) should not be used by any governmental body for any purposes, and should not be disclosed to general public. Major criminal activities should include homicide, drugs trafficking, smuggling of toxic materials, bacteria/viruses or fissile materials for profit purposes, child pornography dealing, money laundering, abduction of people for ransom, sabotage in large computer networks and tax evasion.