The anti-gay marriage movement IS homophobic

aktorist,

I have already explained my position. You just need to get over this thing about needing to be right or wrong, ok?

Call me what you want. It doesn't make it true.

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This went from the rights of gays to who can argue and who cant.

Someone tell me why gays should not be given the legal rights of those who marry.

Someone tell me why they should.

Keep the argument to that.

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Momma Angel wrote:

aktorist,

I have already explained my position. You just need to get over this thing about needing to be right or wrong, ok?

Call me what you want. It doesn't make it true.

No, you have not explained your position, and you are avoiding to explain your position.

WHICH ONES DO YOU BELIEVE AND WHICH ONES DO YOU NOT BELIEVE?

1. You believe that discrimination of types like ones against gay people are wrong.
2. You believe that gay marriage is wrong.
3. You believe that gays should be denied the right to marriage.
4. Gays being denied the right to marriage is discriminatory.

Quote:

This went from the rights of gays to who can argue and who cant.

Someone tell me why gays should not be given the legal rights of those who marry.

Someone tell me why they should.

Keep the argument to that.

Civil rights.

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Center&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=16761

* Hospital visitation. Married couples have the automatic right to visit each other in the hospital and make medical decisions. Same-sex couples can be denied the right to visit a sick or injured loved one in the hospital.
* Social Security benefits. Married people receive Social Security payments upon the death of a spouse. Despite paying payroll taxes, gay and lesbian workers receive no Social Security survivor benefits - resulting in an average annual income loss of $5,528 upon the death of a partner.
* Health insurance. Many public and private employers provide medical coverage to the spouses of their employees, but most employers do not provide coverage to the life partners of gay and lesbian employees. Gay employees who do receive health coverage for their partners must pay federal income taxes on the value of the insurance.
* Estate taxes. A married person automatically inherits all the property of his or her deceased spouse without paying estate taxes. A gay or lesbian taxpayer is forced to pay estate taxes on property inherited from a deceased partner.
* Retirement savings. While a married person can roll a deceased spouse's 401(k) funds into an IRA without paying taxes, a gay or lesbian American who inherits a 401(k) can end up paying up to 70 percent of it in taxes and penalties.
* Family leave. Married workers are legally entitled to unpaid leave from their jobs to care for an ill spouse. Gay and lesbian workers are not entitled to family leave to care for their partners.
* Immigration rights. Bi-national families are commonly broken up or forced to leave the country to stay together. The reason: U.S. immigration law does not permit American citizens to petition for their same-sex partners to immigrate.
* Nursing homes. Married couples have a legal right to live together in nursing homes. Because they are not legal spouses, elderly gay or lesbian couples do not have the right to spend their last days living together in nursing homes.
* Home protection. Laws protect married seniors from being forced to sell their homes to pay high nursing home bills; gay and lesbian seniors have no such protection.
* Pensions. After the death of a worker, most pension plans pay survivor benefits only to a legal spouse of the participant. Gay and lesbian partners are excluded from such pension benefits.

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Look sweetie, you can post that as many times as you want to post it. I have explained my position on this issue. I have told you the honest to God truth how I feel about it.

Now, sturgis even told you that he did not feel I was discriminatory against homosexuals and that's still not good enough for you.

You have the right to what you believe and I have the right to what I believe. Plain and simple. You don't agree with me, fine. I don't agree with you, fine. As far as I am concerned, I am more than willing to just agree to disagree on this issue with you. Now, why can't you do the same?

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It's hopeless MommaAngel. They'll keep asking the same questions again and again that you've answered again and again. And if you don't keep answering them, they'll accuse you of not answering them. And if you do answer them, they'll condemn you for your answer. It's a very predictable pattern.

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Quote:

Sorry, but that made me really laugh. Oh, so if I don't discuss this issue according to your standards then I am not qualified? Is that what you are saying?

Everyone has beliefs; but only some beliefs are built upon logically consistent arguments.

We could stand around all day shouting 'well, I believe THIS!' 'Oh yeah? Well, I believe THIS!' But that gets noone anywhere. It doesn't further the discussion in the slightest.

If a belief is a true one, and one that should be given weight in a conversation, then it should be able to be logically consistent. I'm not judging the content of your character, I'm judging the content of your argument, and finding it lacking.

If you ask someone to explain their opinion, and they are unable to do so, what do you think of their opinion? As much as someone who IS able to do so? I think not. When an error in logic is pointed out, to ignore it is the same as admitting that your position is wrong.

Cycloptichorn

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Quote:

I have explained my position on this issue. I have told you the honest to God truth how I feel about it.

I never asked you to change your mind. All I am asking for you to do is for you to tell me sincerely, and be patient if you have already answered this again, what your position is on these issues, for I have never seen you answer this.

I just want your answer. I just want to know what you think. So far, you have not explained your position.

1. You believe that discrimination of types like ones against gay people are wrong.
2. You believe that gay marriage is wrong.
3. You believe that gays should be denied the right to marriage.
4. Gays being denied the right to marriage is discriminatory.

Just tell me now, which ones do you believe are TRUE, and which ones you believe are FALSE. It's very simple, and anyone can tell a simple TRUE or FALSE.

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Foxfyre,

I know. I'm just speechless. I have explained how I see this. I even changed my views so not to be discriminatory and it's not good enough.
Now, I get this, I have to choose one side or the other. Well, sorry, I cannot do it. My abstaining would be in the best interest of all concerned.

Cycloptichorn,

Do you ever have like, "normal" conversations? Do you analyze everything? Lighten up sweetie!

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Foxfyre wrote:

Gays already have equal access to legalities such as state verified marriage. They just have to marry somebody of the opposite sex like everybody else has to do. That they choose not to do so in no way makes the law inequitable as it is written.

I think there has to be a name for this sort of stuff, but I don't know what it is.

It's kind of equivocation....but it is way worse.

I honestly do not know how you are able to say such a thing and still talk to yourself.

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aktorist,

With all due respect and every bit of patience I can muster right now. I am not answering those questions with a true or false answer. It is not that simple for me.

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Fox Wrote:

Quote:

It's hopeless MommaAngel. They'll keep asking the same questions again and again that you've answered again and again. And if you don't keep answering them, they'll accuse you of not answering them. And if you do answer them, they'll condemn you for your answer. It's a very predictable pattern.

As another poster who refuses to see her own logical inconsistancies, this is hardly surprising Laughing

Cycloptichorn

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Quote:

I know. I'm just speechless. I have explained how I see this. I even changed my views so not to be discriminatory and it's not good enough.
Now, I get this, I have to choose one side or the other. Well, sorry, I cannot do it. My abstaining would be in the best interest of all concerned.

I'm not asking you to choose a side.
I'm just asking you, just what you believe. What's wrong with that?

I'm not trying to analyze something. I'm just trying to get to know your beliefs. What's wrong with that?

This is only a query. I am not trying to get you to change your view, or choose a side. I'm just trying to get to know your opinion.

I just want to know, is it true, or is it not true, the following?

1. You believe that discrimination of types like ones against gay people are wrong.
2. You believe that gay marriage is wrong.
3. You believe that gays should be denied the right to marriage.
4. Gays being denied the right to marriage is discriminatory.

Please tell me. I'm not trying to get you to choose a side. I'm just trying to figure out which ones you agree with, and which ones you don't. I just want to know what you think about these issues.

Again, I'm not trying to get you to choose a side. This is only a question.

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Gee, Cycloptichorn, sorry that me and Foxfyre just aren't up to your standards of what is logical and what is not. Wait a minute!?! Who got to make up the rules for this anyway? :wink:

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dlowan wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Gays already have equal access to legalities such as state verified marriage. They just have to marry somebody of the opposite sex like everybody else has to do. That they choose not to do so in no way makes the law inequitable as it is written.

I think there has to be a name for this sort of stuff, but I don't know what it is.

It's kind of equivocation....but it is way worse.

I honestly do not know how you are able to say such a thing and still talk to yourself.

There is nothing in the marriage laws that says a) you have to have a religious ceremony or b) that you have to love each other, or c) that you can't be homosexual. Most state laws do say that a) you must be of legal age or have a note from your parents; b) you must not be married to anybody else; c) you must not have any communicable STD; and d) you must marry somebody of the opposite sex.

These laws apply 100% equitably to all Americans regardless of race, ethnicity, sex, height, weight, religious beliefs, musical ability, or sexual orientation.

I honestly don't see how you can't see that what I said is perfectly true.

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Quote:

With all due respect and every bit of patience I can muster right now. I am not answering those questions with a true or false answer. It is not that simple for me.

Why is it not that simple?

You have said it already: discimination against gay people is wrong.

Did you not say that?

You have said it already: gays should not marry.

Did you not say that?

What I am simply saying that denying the right to marriage is discriminatory. It's simple, and I'm sure you would agree.

But these three combined, they do not make sense.

You currently believe that gays should be denied the right to marriage. This is the same thing as that gays should be discriminated against.

You believe that gays should be discriminated against and discriminated against at the same time?

Please, make up your mind. I just want to know sincerely just what you believe.

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dlowan wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Gays already have equal access to legalities such as state verified marriage. They just have to marry somebody of the opposite sex like everybody else has to do. That they choose not to do so in no way makes the law inequitable as it is written.

I think there has to be a name for this sort of stuff, but I don't know what it is.

It's kind of equivocation....but it is way worse.

I honestly do not know how you are able to say such a thing and still talk to yourself.

I have just thought of a good analogy.

It is as though one lived in a country which said it had freedom of religion....but only Muslim prayers, mosques etc were allowed.

No other places of worship were allowed.

No other religious symbols were allowed.

There was no other way of getting married thna the Muslim way...etc...

"But how is this freedome of religion"?

"Do not be ridiculous! EVERYONE is free to be a Muslim!"

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Your analogy doesn't work Dlowan because the US marriage laws discriminate against NOBODY.

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aktorist Wrote:

Quote:

1. You believe that discrimination of types like ones against gay people are wrong.

Depends upon what you are talking about in the way of discrimination. You make that clearer and I will answer.

2. You believe that gay marriage is wrong.

Yes,I do believe that gay marriage is wrong. The Bible says homosexuality is wrong and I believe the Bible is the Word of God.

3. You believe that gays should be denied the right to marriage.

I do not believe it is right that they should marry; however, I can agree to the fact that this is between them and God. So, I would abstain from voting as not to endorse nor oppose this.

4. Gays being denied the right to marriage is discriminatory.

I'm very torn on this. I don't believe it is right but again, it's between them and God. Again, I would abstain so as not to endorse nor oppose this.

So help me, if you give me even one second's hard time for any of these answers and I will hunt you down and I will feed you to my cats, deal? :wink:

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So, the Bible says that gay marriage is wrong.

Gays being denied the right to marriage is discriminatory.

Thus, the Bible says something discriminatory.

Discrimination, referring of course, to the unfair treatment based on invidious reasons. That is, irrational social, racial, religious, sexual, ethnic and age-related discrimination of people.

So the Bible supports sexual orientation discrimination.

This is the conclusion.

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That's it! I am hunting you down and you will become my cats' next meal! I answered your question honestly because you said you sincerely wanted to know what I believed.

Do you feel good about what you just did? Do you feel good that you got me to trust you enough to give you the honest to goodness truth about how I felt just so you could turn around and use it to prove the Bible says something you feel is discriminatory?!

I was honestly starting to like you and enjoy our little discussion. Thanx. Thanx a whole bunch. What a nice guy you are .

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The anti-gay marriage movement IS homophobic

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