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The anti-gay marriage movement IS homophobic

 
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 01:12 pm
HofT wrote:
Debra - no offense, but you need some fresh air before you write any more nonsense like>

"...Each and every law stands or fails on its own merits..."

> as you did in your latest post. The Goodridge decision will surely fall in 2006, whatever its alleged (by you) merits may be, by the vote of the citizens of the State of Massachusetts voting in a referendum. You want to bet on this, just say how much Smile



Maybe you're not aware of this fact: The United States Constitution is the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND. No state referendum has the ability to negate the supreme law of the land.

I do understand, however, that ignorant and hateful people have the ability to thwart the Constitution and oppress and tyrannize others. One need only look at history. After all, Plessy v. Ferguson served to oppress and tyrannize black people for decades.

Eventually, however, justice prevails. See, e.g., Brown v. Board of Education.

Even if you smuggly celebrate the Massachusetts referendum because it furthers your anti-homosexual agenda . . . being smug about your hate and bias isn't an attribute to be admired.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 01:21 pm
HofT wrote:
P.S. to Debra - spare us your "apparently's" in re (that's res, rei, as you would know if you had read in toto the Supreme Court decisions you cite, including dissents!) fundamental rights.

The record is too, too clear on restrictions on that particular "fundamental right" - close relatives, groups, animals, underage persons, the severely mentally impaired, sufferers from sexually transmitted diseases, and on, and on, don't enjoy that "right to marry". No such restrictions exist on any truly fundamental right.


Another glaring example of your ignorance surpassing your arrogance. But, it's still apparent that you didn't read the case before you claimed expertise concerning its contents. Razz
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 01:22 pm
Is there a difference beween an inalienable right and a fundamental right? I consider the first to be anything that requires no participation by any other and thus is not subject to regulation or prohibition. The second seems to imply more of an expectation that all or most are or can be benefitted, but anything that requires a license (ie sanction of the government) can surely be regulated andor prohibited by that same government.
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 01:30 pm
Debra - I feel sorry for you, as you claim legal expertise in the face of abysmal ignorance.

Look up Lawrence Tribe's writings on the Goodridge decision which he, correctly, views as in line with the EXISTING Mass. constitution - and, btw, DO PLEASE LET ME KNOW how much you're WILLING TO BET on your ABSURD referendum prediction!
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 02:11 pm
Again, you didn't read the Goodridge decision. Go through it, line by line, and discover for yourself how the Court relied on federal Supreme Court cases/precedent during the course of its analysis.

Although the decision is based on the equal protection clause of the Massachusetts state constitution, you cannot ignore the Court's reliance upon U.S. Supreme Court cases that construe the federal equal protection clause.

After that, then read federal cases that have declared amendments to state constitutions that discriminate against homosexuals as UNCONSTITUTIONAL under the federal constitution.

Then, evaluate the probable constitutionality under federal law of a state referendum movement that would negate the Goodridge decision.

If and when you demonstrate that you have done the legwork necessary to state a learned opinion, then maybe you can claim an iota of expertise. Right now, you're just spewing ignorance and arrogance based on your smuggly-held anti-homosexual views.

Again, being smug about your hate and bias isn't an attribute to be admired.
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 02:27 pm
"Again, being smug about your hate and bias isn't an attribute to be admired. "

_________________

Precisely, Ms. Debra Law, Esq., think about it <G>
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 03:02 pm
From the mystical Bay of Fundy...the fresh sweet breath of liberty
Quote:
canada news
Monday, Jun 27, 2005

OTTAWA (CBC) - Opposition leaders say there's no point trying to block this week's likely passage of same-sex marriage legislation if the Liberals, NDP and Bloc Québécois have thrown their support behind it.

Members of Parliament begin final debate on Bill C-38 on Monday, the start of what is expected to be the final week before the House of Commons breaks for the summer. The bill establishing the Civil Marriage Act could pass before the weekend.

Conservative deputy leader Peter MacKay says he believes the Liberals will try to invoke closure on the bill's debate, with the co-operation of the NDP and Bloc.

"I think the bill is going to pass," MacKay told CBC Newsworld in an interview Monday.

"I suspect that the Liberals may invoke closure, which they've done as recently as last week," he said. "The Liberals have banded together with the Bloc and NDP in the past to shut down Parliament and that strategy may unfold again."

Last Thursday, the Liberals used an obscure parliamentary tactic to end debate on the budget bill by gaining support from the Bloc and NDP, catching the Conservatives without a full slate of MPs.

Learn how to use eBay


With most Tory MPs opposed to same-sex legislation, MacKay says the party will try to move some amendments to the legislation.


Specifically, the Conservatives want to make clearer the rights of churches, public officials and other religious institutions to refuse to perform same-sex unions without punishment.

"It's always about balance, it's always about keeping people's rights fair," said MacKay. "That's what this issue should be about -- equality under the law. And I think we've strayed a little too far from that."

The issue has sparked a strong reaction across the country.

Opponents of same-sex unions held prayer vigils across the country on Sunday, the same day tens of thousands of people gathered in Toronto for the city's annual Pride parade.

NDP Leader Jack Layton rode a bicycle in the parade to show solidarity with the gay community, while Conservative Leader Stephen Harper spoke out against the legislation at a Muslim conference in Toronto.

The bill would legalize same-sex marriage across the country. A number of court decisions in the past few years have allowed such marriages to be performed in eight provinces and one territory.

The new bill means same-sex marriages can also take place in Alberta, Prince Edward Island, Nunavut and the Northwest Territories.

The NDP and Bloc support the bill, while as many as 34 Liberals may vote against it. All but four members of the Conservative caucus are opposed to the bill.

© the CBC, 2005
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 03:19 pm
Great news - do you think you can take in our Debra?

She doesn't know that what she, in her infantile legalistic nanny manner, calls "the supreme law of the land" is in fact superseded by international treaties - hell, the poor person doesn't even know the difference between "secede" and "supersede" - so, will you take her in?

Say yes - it would save us billions in remedial legal, orthographic and mental counseling Smile
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 03:23 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Is there a difference beween an inalienable right and a fundamental right? I consider the first to be anything that requires no participation by any other and thus is not subject to regulation or prohibition. The second seems to imply more of an expectation that all or most are or can be benefitted, but anything that requires a license (ie sanction of the government) can surely be regulated andor prohibited by that same government.


Foxfyre:

An "inalienable right" is a right that cannot be surrendered to the governing power only to be granted back to us on whatever terms the government deems fit. When we use the term "inalienable" to describe rights, you have to be mindful of the history.

Under English rule, it was believed that the KING ruled by divine right and that the King could do no wrong. Accordingly, the King's subjects had absolutely NO RIGHT to life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness. The King's subjects lived and died at the pleasure of the King.

When our forefather's laid the groundwork for government, it was a novel idea that an individual held inalienable rights to life and liberty. When the Constitution was adopted, it was done so on the premise that "we the people" SURRENDERED NOTHING, and RETAINED EVERYTHING.

Accordingly, the Constitution establishes a government of limited powers. Our federal government may only exercise enumerated powers and the government's power is further limited by the Bill of Rights. "We the People" do not have "constitutional rights" in any literal sense. The Constitution does NOT grant rights. It protects and secures the rights that we retained when we formed government.

The Constitution did not grant us the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. The Constition was ordained and established to SECURE the blessings of liberty to the people and their progeny--to secure ALL THE RIGHTS we retained. We surrendered nothing.

NO RIGHT, however, is absolute. Inasmuch as all men are created equal, my right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness does not allow me to violate another individual's right to life and liberty. The government SECURES my rights and it SECURES my neighbor's rights.

I have a right to life and liberty; my neighbor has a right to life and liberty. This right to life and liberty is inalienable in the sense that NONE of us surrendered these rights to the government when we formed government as these rights are incapable of being surrendered to a governing power. We do not live our lives as free persons at the mere whim of the government.

Fundamental rights are those rights that are fundamental in our concepts of ordered liberty. (Remember, LIBERTY is an inalienable right, so a fundamental right is merely part and parcel of the inalienable right to liberty.) Accordingly, I have an inalienable right to life and liberty and I have a fundamental right to life and liberty.

The government cannot deprive me of my fundamental right to life and liberty EXCEPT BY DUE PROCESS OF LAW.

In our concept of "ordered liberty" wherein the government was formed to secure the inalienable rights of all citizens and persons within its jurisdiction, the right to life and liberty would be virtually meaningless if disorder was allowed to prevail and my neighbor was allowed to snuff out my life / liberty without any accountability or consequences.

The government has general police powers to secure our concepts of ordered liberty and to promote the general welfare. Thus, we are accountable to the laws. Most laws are constitutional if they are reasonably related to a legitimate government interest. There is no question that the government has power to prohibit and criminalize murder and other crimes against persons and their property.

If I commit a crime--even though I have an inalienable right to life/liberty and a fundamental right to life/liberty--the government can deprive me of my life/liberty as punishment for a crime providing that the government provides me with due process of law.

You try to distinquish between inalienable rights and fundamental rights by claiming "inalienable rights" are not subject to regulation or prohibition. But your attempt to distinquish fails miserably because I cannot think of one inalienable right that is not subject to government regulation through laws for the equal protection (security) of all.

The people did not surrender their right to life anymore than they surrendered their right to marry to the government only to have these rights "GRANTED" back to us under whatever terms the government desired.

We surrendered nothing; we retained everything. We agreed to live in a society of ordered liberty where the government was responsible for securing the rights of all on an equal basis.

We have an inalienable, fundamental liberty interest in the right to travel. The fact that government might require that drivers obtain drivers licenses to demonstrate that they are minimally-qualified safe drivers before they are permitted to drive potentially dangerous weapons on public roads for the equal protection and security of all does NOT negate the fact that individuals have an inalienable, fundamental liberty interest in the right to travel.

Governmental regulation of conduct or an activity is not the sine qua non distinction between "inalienable rights" and "fundamental rights." There is no distinction because ALL RIGHTS are subject to reasonable regulation for the equal protection and security of all.

We have an inalienable liberty interest which includes the fundamental right to marry. Our right to marry may be regulated in part, but not completely denied. Each and every regulation must pass constitutional scrutiny on its own merits.

When the government seeks to regulate the inalienable right to liberty which includes the fundamental right to marry, the government must articulate a compelling interest and the means used by the government must be necessary and narrowly tailored to serve that compelling interest.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 03:24 pm
Happy to take you both in. Nor shall you find yourself on any tally.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 03:27 pm
HofT wrote:
"Again, being smug about your hate and bias isn't an attribute to be admired. "

_________________

Precisely, Ms. Debra Law, Esq., think about it <G>

Come on, Helen, leave Debra alone. Granted, she is opinionated, and yes, she has argued the opposite side of both of us in this debate; but you can't seriously accuse her of ignorance. She frequently cites pertinent Supreme Court cases, state and federal, and her opinions are well founded in the court records she cites. Even though I won't altogether buy into Debra's conclusions, I very much prefer to argue out a disagreement with her than with the sheepish "conservatives bad, liberals good" chorus. And that chorus is all we're left with if we abuse our intelligent opponents out of the threads we visit. So give Debra a break, please. I would appreciate it.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 03:44 pm
HofT wrote:
Great news - do you think you can take in our Debra?

She doesn't know that what she, in her infantile legalistic nanny manner, calls "the supreme law of the land" is in fact superseded by international treaties - hell, the poor person doesn't even know the difference between "secede" and "supersede" - so, will you take her in?

Say yes - it would save us billions in remedial legal, orthographic and mental counseling Smile


ROFL Laughing

Do your homework, HofT. Show me the legal authority for your claim that international treaties supersede the United States Constitution. Pay close attention to Article VI, U.S. Constitution and then report back with your findings. :wink:
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 03:45 pm
Thomas - you can't have it both ways. Either she's truly ignorant (the charitable option, which I've so far espoused) or she's a shameless fraud deliberately misrepresenting applicable law and the very jurisprudence she purports to quote.

If you know of a third option I, for one, will be very happy to hear it.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 03:50 pm
Save your typing fingers, Debra - you've been so badly humiliated in your passionate support for keeping vegetables (a.k.a. Mrs. Schiavo) "alive" that only some severe mental compulsion can keep you arguing futher garbage of the same sort.

For the third and final time:

HOW MUCH ARE YOU WILLING TO BET on the outcome of the 2006 Massachusetts referendum?

Whatever sum you name, I'll match immediately, and reserve the right to unlimited raises <G>
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 03:51 pm
Debra isn't ignorant nor is HofT, nor can either be pegged into a stereotypical liberal or conservative hole. There have been times I have disagreed with both but would accuse niether of failing to provide a reasoned opinion. Both have a feisty streak that I try not to provoke. Smile
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 04:03 pm
HofT wrote:
If you know of a third option I, for one, will be very happy to hear it.

She is an intelligent and competent person with an opinion, and other persons with other opinions can have honest disagreements with her. This is the third option, and the one I vote for.

As for the bet you propose, I bet even odds on each of the following propositions: 1) the referendum will end up changing the Massachusetts state constitution and 2) The federal Supreme Court will affirm those state constitutional changes in the first decision it makes about them, and 3) the majority will be either 6-3 or 5-4.
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 04:08 pm
Thomas - I will see your #3 and raise your bet (how much, btw?) giving you 10:1 odds the ruling (if any) by the US Supreme Court will be unanimous. On your #1 only a blind mouse would disagree, and on #2, depends on whether the mouse in question hires Debra to appeal on its behalf.

Over and out until this weekend Smile
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 04:27 pm
HofT wrote:
Save your typing fingers, Debra - you've been so badly humiliated in your passionate support for keeping vegetables (a.k.a. Mrs. Schiavo) "alive" that only some severe mental compulsion can keep you arguing futher garbage of the same sort.

For the third and final time:

HOW MUCH ARE YOU WILLING TO BET on the outcome of the 2006 Massachusetts referendum?

Whatever sum you name, I'll match immediately, and reserve the right to unlimited raises <G>



Oh. I see. Not only do you despise homosexuals and wish to oppress and tyrannize in order to satiate your hate and bias, now you despise "human vegetables" who ought to be deprived of life not worth living, in your estimation.

I am for the equal protection and security of fundamental rights for all persons; you are against the equal protection and security of fundamental rights for those you despise.

I am for the Constitution the United States of America; you against it when it stands in the way of your hate and bias.

Those who oppress and tyrannize on the basis of their hate and bias often prevail and win battles; but eventually the war is won on the side of justice and the Constitution.

Like it or not, HofT. Someday homosexuals will win the war against bigotry to obtain equal protection under the law.

It's not at all humiliating to advocate for fundamental rights and the equal protection of all persons. The war against bigotry might not be won in my lifetime, but I am confident that our constitutional values will prevail in the end. At least my life on this earth is not plagued with bias and hate towards others and the need to oppress those who are different than me.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 09:01 pm
gee whiz...........lots of fightin goin on around here. And I've missed most of it.......shucks!
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 11:36 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
On the other hand, the government has NO legitimate interest in prohibiting the private sexual conduct between two consenting adults.

We're not talking about prohibiting the private sexual conduct between anyone. We're talking about whether or not people can be married. Right?

Debra_Law wrote:
Your desire to compare homosexuals (persons sexually attracted to other persons of the same sex) to pedophiles (persons sexually attracted to children) is demonstrative of your own biases against homosexuals.

In your mind, maybe.

I was not comparing homosexuals and pedophiles. (As anyone can see.) The point I was making is there in black and white. (Don't look for subtlety or subtext; I'm not that bright.)

Since you seem to have missed where I mentioned this to you before, let me use bold to note that I support the creation of same-gender unions in my state. I also have gay friends and respect them. I have helped openly gay persons get hired at companies where I have worked. I even cried when I saw "Silver Lake Life". ;-) (In other words, you are barking up the wrong tree here. Hell, you're in the wrong frigging forest.) Rolling Eyes

Debra_Law wrote:
It appears the true basis of your complaint has nothing to do with the proper application of a test concerning arbitrary or invidious discrimination, but rather concerns your personal animosity towards homosexuals based upon their sexual orientation.

It appears that you are prone to react to what you read rather than to actually digest it and think about it, and that you like to jump to unsupported conclusions about others, even despite statements from them that would indicate that conclusion was a non-starter. Your knowledge of the law makes you an interesting person with whom to discuss this issue. This other aspect of your personality/demeanor does not.
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