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The anti-gay marriage movement IS homophobic

 
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 08:10 pm
Here's Latin help so you don't have to make an utter fool of yourself again, Joe!
_________________________________________

ad nau·se·am (d nôz-m)
adv.
To a disgusting or ridiculous degree; to the point of nausea.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Latin ad, to + nauseam, accusative of nausea, sickness.]
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 08:16 pm
Orthography and literacy are not equivalent. Were that the case, no one at this site would qualify.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 10:39 pm
Debra writes
Quote:
I don't understand your rationale. Your justification for separate restrooms for men and women does not justify laws that discriminate against homosexuals with respect to fundamental rights. You still have not addressed the Supreme Court's rejection of your "equal application" argument. Your "gender is different than race" argument simply begs the question.


My 'gender is different than race' argument was quite aptly described I believe. I don't require that anyone else accept it, but until somebody can come up with a reasoned argument to show how homosexuals are being discriminated against in any way by the marriage laws as they exist, I am not buying a different situation cited as case law as proof.

And to Joe, a truth repeated as truth ad nauseum remains incomprehensible to those unable to discern it.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 10:56 pm
I rebutted your "equal application" of marriage laws argument with Supreme Court precedent. The Supreme Court has rejected your "equal application" argument under similar circumstances (another case dealing specifically with the fundamental right to marry).

Reasoned arguments based on clearly established constitutional law have been posted to countless threads, but you continue to ignore them. So . . . what's the point of going over them again?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 05:30 am
There's hope, Debra. If stupidity got fox into this mess she is in, perhaps it can her out.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 05:45 am
Quote:
The New Fragility of Marriage, for Better or for Worse

By STEPHANIE COONTZ

Studying marriage over the last several years has been a lot like adjusting to marriage itself. No matter how well you think you know your partner beforehand, the first years are full of surprises, not only about your spouse but also about yourself.

I have been studying family history for 30 years, but I began focusing on marriage only in the mid-1990s, when reporters and audiences started asking me if the institution of marriage was falling apart. Many of their questions seemed to assume that there had been some Golden Age of Marriage in the past.

My initial response was that marriage is not undergoing an unprecedented crisis, but has always been in flux. For thousands of years, people have been proclaiming a crisis in marriage and pointing backward to better days. The ancient Greeks complained bitterly about the declining morals of wives. The Romans bemoaned high divorce rates. The European settlers in America began lamenting the decline of the family and the disobedience of women and children almost as soon as they stepped off the boats.
continued
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 06:44 am
Debra writes
Quote:
Reasoned arguments based on clearly established constitutional law have been posted to countless threads, but you continue to ignore them. So . . . what's the point of going over them again?


No, the case law you cited had to do with discrimination based on marriage and race, not gender. I do not believe that argument can be rationally extrapolated to apply to gender in the same way the opinion was applied to race, and I provided my rationale for why it cannot. I believe the Supreme Court would decide that issue in the same way I see it.

When people come to their senses and decide that okay, marriage is what it is and we'll stop trying to change it, then the focus can be turned to dealing with the needs of those, straight and gay, who for whatever reason cannot or do not choose to marry. Here a very real case for discrimination can be made and, when laws allowing for 'the unmarried' to form themselves into family groups via civil unions are challenged, I will expect the court to rule in favor of civil unions.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 06:46 am
Quote:
2 charged with attacking lesbian couple

By Courtney Flynn
Tribune staff reporter
Published June 24, 2005, 8:05 PM CDT


A Winnetka man with ties to white supremacist Matt Hale has been charged with attacking two teenagers after they told him they were lesbians, prosecutors said Friday.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050624hatecrime,1,2048876.story?coll=chi-news-hed
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 06:50 am
As appalling and deplorable as that is Mr. Mountie, i feel it justified to ask what relevance there is to the issue of gay marriage.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 07:16 am
If the gay marriage issue was merely a legal matter in the manner of contractual law, it would not be an 'issue' at all.

What has brought it to the fore are two fundamental elements: the principle and value of equal rights for all citizens on one side, and culturally-generated homophobia on the other side.

There is, of course, absolutely no difference between the beatings of these two teenagers for being lesbian and the beating of blacks for being black.

When elements in the community disparage and demonize a minority, setting them aside as less worthy of equal status, there always are consequences to such stigmatization. This beating, or lynchings of blacks, or dragging a gay fellow behind a car to his death are such consequences.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 07:18 am
A lesson i did not need.

I still consider this to be sufficiently divergent not to be germane to this topic.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 07:25 am
So, a disagreement then.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 04:18 pm
Debra - Excellent post! I appreciate the opportunity both to expand my knowledge on the subject and to reconsider my 14th amendment argument. :-)

I note that in your citation, they mention the case of McLaughlin v. Florida, and write "As we there demonstrated, the Equal Protection Clause requires the consideration of whether the classifications drawn by any statute constitute an arbitrary and invidious discrimination."

Do prohibitions against same-gender unions constitute arbitrary and invidious discrimination? Given the historical context of marriage as a union intended--at least in part--for the furtherance of procreation, I believe one could make a reasonable argument that the one man, one woman requirement is not arbitrary. Whether it is "invidious", seems a tougher nut to crack. Seems to me that almost any law rouses ill will, animosity, or resentment in someone. No doubt bank robbers are displeased with laws prohibiting the robbing of banks, but they are likely in the minority. Likewise, those likely to be roused to ill will by current marriage statutes constitute a minority in this country; a vocal one, no doubt, but I think it unlikely that you could reasonably argue that such laws are considered invidious by most Americans.

To be honest, I find the court's reliance on the term "invidious" a poor choice. What is the test for this? How many people need to be unhappy about a law for it to fail this test? I'm not sure the Loving case would have failed it, as most people at the time may not have favored bi-racial marriage and did not see such laws as being invidious.

The test for such a law should not be whether people are happy with it--whether it is 'invidious"; the test should be whether we can demonstrate a legitimate reason for limiting individual liberty.

In the Loving case, laws barring mixed-race marriages damaged liberty without demonstrating any benefit to society. Likewise, I believe that allowing government to decide what types of relationships consenting adults can or cannot enter into constrains liberty without showing any benefit from doing so. I'd personally prefer that government stayed out of the marriage business altogether, but absent that, I'd favor--in my state--the broadest possible definition of "marriage", or a statute or statutes creating an analogous civil union into which any adults could enter without respect to gender and proffering upon those so joined the same rights, privileges, and responsibilities as traditional marriage.

And again, thanks for your interesting contribution to this discussion! :-)
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 05:03 pm
Arbitrary and invidious (having harmful effects) discrimination is defined as a classification which is irrational and not reasonably related to a legitimate purpose.

When discrimination infringes upon a fundamental right (e.g., the right to marry), the test is whether the classification is necessary and narrowly tailored to serve a compelling state interest.

Courts that have reviewed marriage laws have not applied the heightened standard test because they have found that marriage laws do no even meet a rational basis test: the classification is not reasonably related to a legitimate government interest.

PROCREATION:

The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court held the following:

Quote:
. . . The larger question is whether, as the department claims, government action that bars same-sex couples from civil marriage constitutes a legitimate exercise of the State's authority to regulate conduct, or whether, as the plaintiffs claim, this categorical marriage exclusion violates the Massachusetts Constitution. We have recognized the long-standing statutory understanding, derived from the common law, that "marriage" means the lawful union of a woman and a man. But that history cannot and does not foreclose the constitutional question.

* * *

The Massachusetts Constitution requires, at a minimum, that the exercise of the State's regulatory authority not be "arbitrary or capricious." Commonwealth v. Henry's Drywall Co., 366 Mass. 539, 542 (1974).[19] Under both the equality and liberty guarantees, regulatory authority must, at very least, serve "a legitimate purpose in a rational way"; a statute must "bear a reasonable relation to a permissible legislative objective."

* * *

Because the statute does not survive rational basis review, we do not consider the plaintiffs' arguments that this case merits strict judicial scrutiny.

The department posits three legislative rationales for prohibiting same-sex couples from marrying: (1) providing a "favorable setting for procreation"; (2) ensuring the optimal setting for child rearing, which the department defines as "a two-parent family with one parent of each sex"; and (3) preserving scarce State and private financial resources. We consider each in turn.

The judge in the Superior Court endorsed the first rationale, holding that "the state's interest in regulating marriage is based on the traditional concept that marriage's primary purpose is procreation." This is incorrect. Our laws of civil marriage do not privilege procreative heterosexual intercourse between married people above every other form of adult intimacy and every other means of creating a family. General Laws c. 207 contains no requirement that the applicants for a marriage license attest to their ability or intention to conceive children by coitus. Fertility is not a condition of marriage, nor is it grounds for divorce. People who have never consummated their marriage, and never plan to, may be and stay married. See Franklin v. Franklin, 154 Mass. 515, 516 (1891) ("The consummation of a marriage by coition is not necessary to its validity").[22] People who cannot stir from their deathbed may marry. See G. L. c. 207, § 28A. While it is certainly true that many, perhaps most, married couples have children together (assisted or unassisted), it is the exclusive and permanent commitment of the marriage partners to one another, not the begetting of children, that is the sine qua non of civil marriage.[23]

Moreover, the Commonwealth affirmatively facilitates bringing children into a family regardless of whether the intended parent is married or unmarried, whether the child is adopted or born into a family, whether assistive technology was used to conceive the child, and whether the parent or her partner is heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual.[24] If procreation were a necessary component of civil marriage, our statutes would draw a tighter circle around the permissible bounds of nonmarital child bearing and the creation of families by noncoital means. The attempt to isolate procreation as "the source of a fundamental right to marry," post at (Cordy, J., dissenting), overlooks the integrated way in which courts have examined the complex and overlapping realms of personal autonomy, marriage, family life, and child rearing. Our jurisprudence recognizes that, in these nuanced and fundamentally private areas of life, such a narrow focus is inappropriate.

The "marriage is procreation" argument singles out the one unbridgeable difference between same-sex and opposite-sex couples, and transforms that difference into the essence of legal marriage. Like "Amendment 2" to the Constitution of Colorado, which effectively denied homosexual persons equality under the law and full access to the political process, the marriage restriction impermissibly "identifies persons by a single trait and then denies them protection across the board." Romer v. Evans, 517 U.S. 620, 633 (1996). In so doing, the State's action confers an official stamp of approval on the destructive stereotype that same-sex relationships are inherently unstable and inferior to opposite-sex relationships and are not worthy of respect.[25]

The department's first stated rationale, equating marriage with unassisted heterosexual procreation, shades imperceptibly into its second: that confining marriage to opposite-sex couples ensures that children are raised in the "optimal" setting. Protecting the welfare of children is a paramount State policy. Restricting marriage to opposite-sex couples, however, cannot plausibly further this policy. "




Goodridge v. Dept. of Public Health

Nov 18, 2003
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 10:32 am
Not even Goodridge defines the right to marry as a "fundamental right"; it is no such thing.

Question: when the voters of Massachusetts as expected amend the State constitution in the 2006 referendum will the same-sex marriages that have taken place in the interim get covered by a grandfather clause or just plain be declared null and void? What of any state benefits that the contracting parties may have received in the meantime?
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 12:12 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
Arbitrary and invidious (having harmful effects) discrimination is defined as a classification which is irrational and not reasonably related to a legitimate purpose.

With respect, any law which constrains a behavior desired by any individual could reasonably be considered as invidious by same. Laws against pedophilia are surely considered unjust by members of NAMBLA. Does their opinion make it so? This is what I mean by the "invidiousness" being a non-starter for me. It's the pretense of a testable standard masquerading as an actual testable standard.

And as to the Mass court decision; they are welcome to decide the law in Mass, but I don't live there and their decision holds no weight in my state.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 12:28 pm
HofT wrote:
Not even Goodridge defines the right to marry as a "fundamental right"; it is no such thing.


The right to marry is NOT a fundamental right? Apparently, you have chosen to ignore U.S. Supreme Court precedent that the right to marry IS a fundamental right.

Apparently, you didn't read the Goodridge case either:

Quote:
It is undoubtedly for these concrete reasons, as well as for its intimately personal significance, that civil marriage has long been termed a "civil right." See, e.g., Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1, 12 (1967) ("Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival"), quoting Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541 (1942); Milford v. Worcester, 7 Mass. 48, 56 (1810) (referring to "civil rights incident to marriages"). See also Baehr v. Lewin, 74 Haw. 530, 561 (1993) (identifying marriage as a "civil right[ ]"); Baker v. State, 170 Vt. 194, 242 (1999) (Johnson, J., concurring in part and dissenting in part) (same). The United States Supreme Court has described the right to marry as "of fundamental importance for all individuals" and as "part of the fundamental 'right of privacy' implicit in the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause." Zablocki v. Redhail, 434 U.S. 374, 384 (1978). See Loving v. Virginia, supra ("The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men").

Without the right to marry -- or more properly, the right to choose to marry -- one is excluded from the full range of human experience and denied full protection of the laws for one's "avowed commitment to an intimate and lasting human relationship." Baker v. State, supra at 229. Because civil marriage is central to the lives of individuals and the welfare of the community, our laws assiduously protect the individual's right to marry against undue government incursion. Laws may not "interfere directly and substantially with the right to marry." Zablocki v. Redhail, supra at 387. See Perez v. Sharp, 32 Cal. 2d 711, 714 (1948) ("There can be no prohibition of marriage except for an important social objective and reasonable means").


Goodridge v. Dept. of Public Health
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 12:55 pm
Scrat wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
Arbitrary and invidious (having harmful effects) discrimination is defined as a classification which is irrational and not reasonably related to a legitimate purpose.


With respect, any law which constrains a behavior desired by any individual could reasonably be considered as invidious by same. Laws against pedophilia are surely considered unjust by members of NAMBLA. Does their opinion make it so? This is what I mean by the "invidiousness" being a non-starter for me. It's the pretense of a testable standard masquerading as an actual testable standard.

And as to the Mass court decision; they are welcome to decide the law in Mass, but I don't live there and their decision holds no weight in my state.



We are looking at state laws that CLASSIFY. Whenever a classification is based on a suspect class (e.g., race, national origin), or quasi-suspect class (gender, illegitimacy) or infringes upon a fundamental right (e.g., the right to marry), we examine the GOVERNMENT's rationale for making the classification.

You are mischaracterizing the test by comparing marriage statutes that limit marriage to persons of opposite sex to criminal statutes that penalize an individual for engaging in conduct that victimizes children.

Each and every law passes or fails constitutional muster on its own merits.

With respect to statutes that criminalize sexual abuse of minors, we ask whether the statute is rational and reasonably related to a legitimate government purpose. Certainly, the government has a legitimate interest in protecting children from sexual abuse. No person has a fundamental right to sexually abuse children; pedophiles are not members of a suspect or quasi-suspect class. The government is not engaging in arbitrary or invidious discrimination against pedophiles when it criminalizes sexual abuse of children.

On the other hand, the government has NO legitimate interest in prohibiting the private sexual conduct between two consenting adults. Your desire to compare homosexuals (persons sexually attracted to other persons of the same sex) to pedophiles (persons sexually attracted to children) is demonstrative of your own biases against homosexuals. It appears the true basis of your complaint has nothing to do with the proper application of a test concerning arbitrary or invidious discrimination, but rather concerns your personal animosity towards homosexuals based upon their sexual orientation.
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 01:00 pm
Debra - no offense, but you need some fresh air before you write any more nonsense like>

"...Each and every law stands or fails on its own merits..."

> as you did in your latest post. The Goodridge decision will surely fall in 2006, whatever its alleged (by you) merits may be, by the vote of the citizens of the State of Massachusetts voting in a referendum. You want to bet on this, just say how much Smile
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 01:09 pm
P.S. to Debra - spare us your "apparently's" in re (that's res, rei, as you would know if you had read in toto the Supreme Court decisions you cite, including dissents!) fundamental rights.

The record is too, too clear on restrictions on that particular "fundamental right" - close relatives, groups, animals, underage persons, the severely mentally impaired, sufferers from sexually transmitted diseases, and on, and on, don't enjoy that "right to marry". No such restrictions exist on any truly fundamental right.
0 Replies
 
 

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