23
   

The anti-gay marriage movement IS homophobic

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 07:05 am
Quote:
The point is, even if society doesn't excercise its right to deny its support to some sort of unions, it can still have this right.


Oh yes. I think we negotiate our way through these matters and any voice in the community has as much 'right' to speak up as any other, and to exert political influence.

My intent has been to:
- to keep what I consider the fundamental obstacle to full equality for homosexuals (homophobic cultural prejudices) in focus as being THE fundamental obstacle.
- to suggest or show how other 'arguments' against gay marriage or homsexuality are fairly transparent attempts to put a rational sounding face on homophobia. The argument you note above (and which george advanced here earlier) is, as you find for yourself, not convincing as providing sufficient grounds for denial of equality to a class of citizens. I do consider that it too falls out from other beliefs less ammenable to negotiation (either religious or default to tradition)
- to insist that religious belief/membership provides absolutely no special priviledges in a cultural or policy debate (we ought to be no more concerned with offending religious sensibilities than partisan sensibilities where a faith community becomes a political agent)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 07:26 am
I have not at any time in this thread contended that those who oppose homosexual marraige are homophobic. However, i do think that Mr. Mountie has a good point: the most well-meaning among those who oppose homosexual marriage are being motivated by homophobic principles, whether or not they know or admit it; specifically, the belief that homosexuality is abnormal and sinful.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 04:19 pm
Thomas wrote:


Britannica.com wrote:
Marriage: . . . perhaps its strongest function concerns procreation, the care of children and their education and socialization, and regulation of lines of descent. (Emphasis mine, T.)


Setanta wrote:
It is a denial of basic rights not to allow two consenting adults to secure their rights in property in this manner simply because their sexual practice is offensive to people steeped in religious prejudices.


Yes -- but according to the Supreme Court's interpretation of the constitution, the state can deny basic rights if it has a compelling interest in doing so, and the Religious Right is arguing that it has. Moreover, your argument only applies as long as the contract between the two consenting grown-ups does not confer any obligation upon the rest of society. As soon as it does -- and my understanding is that America's marriage laws do -- the rest of society has a right to decide which terms of the contract it finds acceptable. This is true even if society is stupid and bigot about deciding what it finds acceptable.


The Fourteenth Amendment provides that no state shall deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, nor deprive any person of equal protection under the law.

When determining whether the state has violated the Fourteenth Amendment through a discriminatory classification, we look at the STATE laws. Therefore, we go to the state statutes (not Britannica.com) to find the definition of "marriage."

Marriage is a personal relationship arising out of CONTRACT. Here is a typical state statute defining the marriage contract:

What constitutes marriage - Spouse defined. Marriage is a personal relation arising out of a civil contract between one man and one woman to which the consent of the parties is essential. The marriage relation may be entered into, maintained, annulled, or dissolved only as provided by law. A spouse refers only to a person of the opposite sex who is a husband or a wife.

"It is the exclusive and permanent commitment of the marriage partners to one another, not the begetting of children, that is the sine qua non of civil marriage." Our marriage laws do not require a fertility or procreation test to qualify for a marriage license. Marriage is not a religious institution; marriage is a purely secular institution regulated entirely by state law. There are no religious tests required to qualify for marriage. It may only be entered into, maintained, annulled or dissolved as provided by STATE law.

When looking at a typical state statute that defines marriage, it cannot be denied that the state discriminates based on the gender of an individual's intended spouse. At one time, state statutes discriminated on the basis of the race of an individual's intended spouse-- and those state statutes were declared unconstitutional because they infringed on the fundamental right to marry.

The typical state statute that confines marriage to one man and one woman discriminates on the basis of the gender of one's intended spouse and infringes on a fundamental right. Accordingly, the Courts will use strict scrutiny to determine if the statute passes constitutional muster.

On judicial review, the court will ask whether the classification serves a compelling interest and, if so, whether the classification is necessary and narrowly tailored to serve that compelling interest.

Thomas suggests that the state classification that limits marriage to one man and one woman may serve a state's compelling interest with respect to the function of marriage for procreation purposes.

The Massachusetts Supreme Court considered this argument rejected it under the most deferential standard applied to state laws: the rational basis test.

See GOODRIDGE, et al. v. DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH, et al.

Quote:
Marriage is a vital social institution. The exclusive commitment of two individuals to each other nurtures love and mutual support; it brings stability to our society. For those who choose to marry, and for their children, marriage provides an abundance of legal, financial, and social benefits. In return it imposes weighty legal, financial, and social obligations. The question before us is whether, consistent with the Massachusetts Constitution, the Commonwealth may deny the protections, benefits, and obligations conferred by civil marriage to two individuals of the same sex who wish to marry. We conclude that it may not. The Massachusetts Constitution affirms the dignity and equality of all individuals. It forbids the creation of second-class citizens. In reaching our conclusion we have given full deference to the arguments made by the Commonwealth. But it has failed to identify any constitutionally adequate reason for denying civil marriage to same-sex couples.

We are mindful that our decision marks a change in the history of our marriage law. Many people hold deep-seated religious, moral, and ethical convictions that marriage should be limited to the union of one man and one woman, and that homosexual conduct is immoral. Many hold equally strong religious, moral, and ethical convictions that same-sex couples are entitled to be married, and that homosexual persons should be treated no differently than their heterosexual neighbors. Neither view answers the question before us. Our concern is with the Massachusetts Constitution as a charter of governance for every person properly within its reach. "Our obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate our own moral code." Lawrence v. Texas, 123 S. Ct. 2472, 2480 (2003) (Lawrence), quoting Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833, 850 (1992). . . .

* * *

The department argues that no fundamental right or "suspect" class is at issue here,[21] and rational basis is the appropriate standard of review. For the reasons we explain below, we conclude that the marriage ban does not meet the rational basis test for either due process or equal protection. Because the statute does not survive rational basis review, we do not consider the plaintiffs' arguments that this case merits strict judicial scrutiny.


The department posits three legislative rationales for prohibiting same-sex couples from marrying: (1) providing a "favorable setting for procreation"; (2) ensuring the optimal setting for child rearing, which the department defines as "a two-parent family with one parent of each sex"; and (3) preserving scarce State and private financial resources. We consider each in turn.


The judge in the Superior Court endorsed the first rationale, holding that "the state's interest in regulating marriage is based on the traditional concept that marriage's primary purpose is procreation." This is incorrect. Our laws of civil marriage do not privilege procreative heterosexual intercourse between married people above every other form of adult intimacy and every other means of creating a family. General Laws c. 207 contains no requirement that the applicants for a marriage license attest to their ability or intention to conceive children by coitus. Fertility is not a condition of marriage, nor is it grounds for divorce. People who have never consummated their marriage, and never plan to, may be and stay married. See Franklin v. Franklin, 154 Mass. 515, 516 (1891) ("The consummation of a marriage by coition is not necessary to its validity").[22] People who cannot stir from their deathbed may marry. See G. L. c. 207, § 28A. While it is certainly true that many, perhaps most, married couples have children together (assisted or unassisted), it is the exclusive and permanent commitment of the marriage partners to one another, not the begetting of children, that is the sine qua non of civil marriage.[23]


Moreover, the Commonwealth affirmatively facilitates bringing children into a family regardless of whether the intended parent is married or unmarried, whether the child is adopted or born into a family, whether assistive technology was used to conceive the child, and whether the parent or her partner is heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual.[24] If procreation were a necessary component of civil marriage, our statutes would draw a tighter circle around the permissible bounds of nonmarital child bearing and the creation of families by noncoital means. The attempt to isolate procreation as "the source of a fundamental right to marry," post at (Cordy, J., dissenting), overlooks the integrated way in which courts have examined the complex and overlapping realms of personal autonomy, marriage, family life, and child rearing. Our jurisprudence recognizes that, in these nuanced and fundamentally private areas of life, such a narrow focus is inappropriate.


The "marriage is procreation" argument singles out the one unbridgeable difference between same-sex and opposite-sex couples, and transforms that difference into the essence of legal marriage. Like "Amendment 2" to the Constitution of Colorado, which effectively denied homosexual persons equality under the law and full access to the political process, the marriage restriction impermissibly "identifies persons by a single trait and then denies them protection across the board." Romer v. Evans, 517 U.S. 620, 633 (1996). In so doing, the State's action confers an official stamp of approval on the destructive stereotype that same-sex relationships are inherently unstable and inferior to opposite-sex relationships and are not worthy of respect.[25]


The department's first stated rationale, equating marriage with unassisted heterosexual procreation, shades imperceptibly into its second: that confining marriage to opposite-sex couples ensures that children are raised in the "optimal" setting. Protecting the welfare of children is a paramount State policy. Restricting marriage to opposite-sex couples, however, cannot plausibly further this policy. "The demographic changes of the past century make it difficult to speak of an average American family. The composition of families varies greatly from household to household." Troxel v. Granville, 530 U.S. 57, 63 (2000). Massachusetts has responded supportively to "the changing realities of the American family," id. at 64, and has moved vigorously to strengthen the modern family in its many variations. See, e.g., G. L. c. 209C (paternity statute); G. L. c. 119, § 39D (grandparent visitation statute); Blixt v. Blixt, 437 Mass. 649 (2002), cert. denied, 537 U.S. 1189 (2003) (same); E.N.O. v. L.M.M., 429 Mass. 824, cert. denied, 528 U.S. 1005 (1999) (de facto parent); Youmans v. Ramos, 429 Mass. 774, 782 (1999) (same); and Adoption of Tammy, 416 Mass. 205 (1993) (coparent adoption). Moreover, we have repudiated the common-law power of the State to provide varying levels of protection to children based on the circumstances of birth. See G. L. c. 209C (paternity statute); Powers v. Wilkinson, 399 Mass. 650, 661 (1987) ("Ours is an era in which logic and compassion have impelled the law toward unburdening children from the stigma and the disadvantages heretofore attendant upon the status of illegitimacy"). The "best interests of the child" standard does not turn on a parent's sexual orientation or marital status. See e.g., Doe v. Doe, 16 Mass. App. Ct. 499, 503 (1983) (parent's sexual orientation insufficient ground to deny custody of child in divorce action). See also E.N.O. v. L.M.M., supra at 829-830 (best interests of child determined by considering child's relationship with biological and de facto same-sex parents); Silvia v. Silvia, 9 Mass. App. Ct. 339, 341 & n.3 (1980) (collecting support and custody statutes containing no gender distinction).


The department has offered no evidence that forbidding marriage to people of the same sex will increase the number of couples choosing to enter into opposite-sex marriages in order to have and raise children. There is thus no rational relationship between the marriage statute and the Commonwealth's proffered goal of protecting the "optimal" child rearing unit. Moreover, the department readily concedes that people in same-sex couples may be "excellent" parents. These couples (including four of the plaintiff couples) have children for the reasons others do -- to love them, to care for them, to nurture them. But the task of child rearing for same-sex couples is made infinitely harder by their status as outliers to the marriage laws. While establishing the parentage of children as soon as possible is crucial to the safety and welfare of children, see Culliton v. Beth Israel Deaconness Med. Ctr., 435 Mass. 285, 292 (2001), same-sex couples must undergo the sometimes lengthy and intrusive process of second-parent adoption to establish their joint parentage. While the enhanced income provided by marital benefits is an important source of security and stability for married couples and their children, those benefits are denied to families headed by same-sex couples. See, e.g., note 6, supra. While the laws of divorce provide clear and reasonably predictable guidelines for child support, child custody, and property division on dissolution of a marriage, same-sex couples who dissolve their relationships find themselves and their children in the highly unpredictable terrain of equity jurisdiction. See E.N.O. v. L.M.M., supra. Given the wide range of public benefits reserved only for married couples, we do not credit the department's contention that the absence of access to civil marriage amounts to little more than an inconvenience to same-sex couples and their children. Excluding same-sex couples from civil marriage will not make children of opposite-sex marriages more secure, but it does prevent children of same-sex couples from enjoying the immeasurable advantages that flow from the assurance of "a stable family structure in which children will be reared, educated, and socialized." Post at (Cordy, J., dissenting).[26]


No one disputes that the plaintiff couples are families, that many are parents, and that the children they are raising, like all children, need and should have the fullest opportunity to grow up in a secure, protected family unit. Similarly, no one disputes that, under the rubric of marriage, the State provides a cornucopia of substantial benefits to married parents and their children. The preferential treatment of civil marriage reflects the Legislature's conclusion that marriage "is the foremost setting for the education and socialization of children" precisely because it "encourages parents to remain committed to each other and to their children as they grow." Post at (Cordy, J., dissenting).

In this case, we are confronted with an entire, sizeable class of parents raising children who have absolutely no access to civil marriage and its protections because they are forbidden from procuring a marriage license. It cannot be rational under our laws, and indeed it is not permitted, to penalize children by depriving them of State benefits because the State disapproves of their parents' sexual orientation.

The third rationale advanced by the department is that limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples furthers the Legislature's interest in conserving scarce State and private financial resources. The marriage restriction is rational, it argues, because the General Court logically could assume that same-sex couples are more financially independent than married couples and thus less needy of public marital benefits, such as tax advantages, or private marital benefits, such as employer-financed health plans that include spouses in their coverage.

An absolute statutory ban on same-sex marriage bears no rational relationship to the goal of economy. First, the department's conclusory generalization -- that same-sex couples are less financially dependent on each other than opposite-sex couples -- ignores that many same-sex couples, such as many of the plaintiffs in this case, have children and other dependents (here, aged parents) in their care.[27] The department does not contend, nor could it, that these dependents are less needy or deserving than the dependents of married couples. Second, Massachusetts marriage laws do not condition receipt of public and private financial benefits to married individuals on a demonstration of financial dependence on each other; the benefits are available to married couples regardless of whether they mingle their finances or actually depend on each other for support.

The department suggests additional rationales for prohibiting same-sex couples from marrying, which are developed by some amici. It argues that broadening civil marriage to include same-sex couples will trivialize or destroy the institution of marriage as it has historically been fashioned. Certainly our decision today marks a significant change in the definition of marriage as it has been inherited from the common law, and understood by many societies for centuries. But it does not disturb the fundamental value of marriage in our society.

Here, the plaintiffs seek only to be married, not to undermine the institution of civil marriage. They do not want marriage abolished. They do not attack the binary nature of marriage, the consanguinity provisions, or any of the other gate-keeping provisions of the marriage licensing law. Recognizing the right of an individual to marry a person of the same sex will not diminish the validity or dignity of opposite-sex marriage, any more than recognizing the right of an individual to marry a person of a different race devalues the marriage of a person who marries someone of her own race.[28] If anything, extending civil marriage to same-sex couples reinforces the importance of marriage to individuals and communities. That same-sex couples are willing to embrace marriage's solemn obligations of exclusivity, mutual support, and commitment to one another is a testament to the enduring place of marriage in our laws and in the human spirit.[29]


It has been argued that, due to the State's strong interest in the institution of marriage as a stabilizing social structure, only the Legislature can control and define its boundaries. Accordingly, our elected representatives legitimately may choose to exclude same-sex couples from civil marriage in order to assure all citizens of the Commonwealth that (1) the benefits of our marriage laws are available explicitly to create and support a family setting that is, in the Legislature's view, optimal for child rearing, and (2) the State does not endorse gay and lesbian parenthood as the equivalent of being raised by one's married biological parents. These arguments miss the point. The Massachusetts Constitution requires that legislation meet certain criteria and not extend beyond certain limits. It is the function of courts to determine whether these criteria are met and whether these limits are exceeded. In most instances, these limits are defined by whether a rational basis exists to conclude that legislation will bring about a rational result. The Legislature in the first instance, and the courts in the last instance, must ascertain whether such a rational basis exists. To label the court's role as usurping that of the Legislature, see, e.g., post at (Cordy, J., dissenting), is to misunderstand the nature and purpose of judicial review. We owe great deference to the Legislature to decide social and policy issues, but it is the traditional and settled role of courts to decide constitutional issues.[31]

The history of constitutional law "is the story of the extension of constitutional rights and protections to people once ignored or excluded." United States v. Virginia, 518 U.S. 515, 557 (1996) (construing equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to prohibit categorical exclusion of women from public military institute). This statement is as true in the area of civil marriage as in any other area of civil rights. See, e.g., Turner v. Safley, 482 U.S. 78 (1987); Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967); Perez v. Sharp, 32 Cal. 2d 711 (1948). As a public institution and a right of fundamental importance, civil marriage is an evolving paradigm. The common law was exceptionally harsh toward women who became wives: a woman's legal identity all but evaporated into that of her husband. See generally C.P. Kindregan, Jr., & M.L. Inker, Family Law and Practice §§ 1.9 and 1.10 (3d ed. 2002). Thus, one early Nineteenth Century jurist could observe matter of factly that, prior to the abolition of slavery in Massachusetts, "the condition of a slave resembled the connection of a wife with her husband, and of infant children with their father. He is obliged to maintain them, and they cannot be separated from him." Winchendon v. Hatfield, 4 Mass. 123, 129 (1808). But since at least the middle of the Nineteenth Century, both the courts and the Legislature have acted to ameliorate the harshness of the common-law regime. In Bradford v. Worcester, 184 Mass. 557, 562 (1904), we refused to apply the common-law rule that the wife's legal residence was that of her husband to defeat her claim to a municipal "settlement of paupers." In Lewis v. Lewis, 370 Mass. 619, 629 (1976), we abrogated the common-law doctrine immunizing a husband against certain suits because the common-law rule was predicated on "antediluvian assumptions concerning the role and status of women in marriage and in society." Id. at 621. Alarms about the imminent erosion of the "natural" order of marriage were sounded over the demise of antimiscegenation laws, the expansion of the rights of married women, and the introduction of "no-fault" divorce.[32] Marriage has survived all of these transformations, and we have no doubt that marriage will continue to be a vibrant and revered institution.


We also reject the argument suggested by the department, and elaborated by some amici, that expanding the institution of civil marriage in Massachusetts to include same-sex couples will lead to interstate conflict. We would not presume to dictate how another State should respond to today's decision. But neither should considerations of comity prevent us from according Massachusetts residents the full measure of protection available under the Massachusetts Constitution. The genius of our Federal system is that each State's Constitution has vitality specific to its own traditions, and that, subject to the minimum requirements of the Fourteenth Amendment, each State is free to address difficult issues of individual liberty in the manner its own Constitution demands.

Several amici suggest that prohibiting marriage by same-sex couples reflects community consensus that homosexual conduct is immoral. Yet Massachusetts has a strong affirmative policy of preventing discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. See G. L. c. 151B (employment, housing, credit, services); G. L. c. 265, § 39 (hate crimes); G. L. c. 272, § 98 (public accommodation); G. L. c. 76, § 5 (public education). See also, e.g., Commonwealth v. Balthazar, 366 Mass. 298 (1974) (decriminalization of private consensual adult conduct); Doe v. Doe, 16 Mass. App. Ct. 499, 503 (1983) (custody to homosexual parent not per se prohibited).

The department has had more than ample opportunity to articulate a constitutionally adequate justification for limiting civil marriage to opposite-sex unions. It has failed to do so.
0 Replies
 
SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 04:38 pm
Setanta wrote:
specifically, the belief that homosexuality is abnormal and sinful.


Which would not be phobic per se, but is still invariably related?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 04:55 pm
Homophobia, by definition, embraces all forms of aversion to homosexuals and homosexuality. It makes no difference whether people want to couch their homophobia in terms that describe homosexuality as "abnormal or sinful." They are still voicing their aversion. It doesn't matter if they couch their homophobia in terms of moral disapproval for "religious reasons." They are still voicing their aversion. Although people may object to be labeled "homophobic," they continue to espouse homophobic views.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

And homophobia by any other name is still homophobia.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 04:59 pm
The suffix -phobia, from the Greek phobos, fear, is also used to denote those who hate as well as those who fear. Procreation is always in the interest of priesthoods, the more followers, the more "soldiers" for whatever particular deity the priests are promoting. For some of them (and certainly never all of them in human history), homosexuality is to be feared and hated because of its lack of a procreative function. Those priesthoods erect carved in stone injunctions against and condemnations of homosexuality.

Many American christians are fond of repeating that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. For whatever the good intentions of the individual, religiosly based condemnation of homosexuality is based upon fear and hatred.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 05:41 pm
Then it Christiophobia so many of you exhibit?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 05:45 pm
more likely Paulinaphobia, Jesus was a Jew.(they got their own hangups)
0 Replies
 
SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 06:13 pm
I just corrected a spelling error in my last post which reminded me of something unrelated. Does anyone know if Adams and Jefferson actually argued over whether it was "inalienable" or "unalienable"?

Sorry for the tangent.

Debra, I have to disagree. I think it is clearly the tendency to be "homophobic," but consider a parallel (this is as far from a straw man as I can make it, although it may scare a few crows :wink: ):

If a father keeps his child away from the stairs, is it fair to say that he is afraid of his child? Is it fair to say that he is afraid of the stairs?

Now before you get angry about my example, let me explain my opinion. It is possible to believe that homosexuality offers some danger to homsexuals. It is possible for someone with that belief to not be afraid of homosexuals, but simply be concerned for them. In fact, it is possible, although barely, to not even hate or be afraid of homsexuality, but only consider it a danger.

As I see it, that is the only justifiable approach that religion could take (if it will not support homosexuality). The problem is that, as has been mentioned, that is "never" the case.

Now, if you were actually concerned for the wellbeing, or happiness of homsexuals, then it would be possible to be "against" homosexuality, without being "homophobic" in any sense of the word.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 09:50 pm
SCoates wrote:
Debra, I have to disagree. I think it is clearly the tendency to be "homophobic," but consider a parallel (this is as far from a straw man as I can make it, although it may scare a few crows :wink: ):

If a father keeps his child away from the stairs, is it fair to say that he is afraid of his child? Is it fair to say that he is afraid of the stairs?

Now before you get angry about my example, let me explain my opinion. It is possible to believe that homosexuality offers some danger to homsexuals. It is possible for someone with that belief to not be afraid of homosexuals, but simply be concerned for them. In fact, it is possible, although barely, to not even hate or be afraid of homsexuality, but only consider it a danger.

As I see it, that is the only justifiable approach that religion could take (if it will not support homosexuality). The problem is that, as has been mentioned, that is "never" the case.

Now, if you were actually concerned for the wellbeing, or happiness of homsexuals, then it would be possible to be "against" homosexuality, without being "homophobic" in any sense of the word.


Your analogy doesn't make sense. I'm not certain what you're trying to say or the point you're trying to make. Maybe you're saying this:

It is possible that childhood offers some danger to children in the same manner that homosexuality offers some danger to homosexuals. Accordingly, the same way that society places paternalistic restrictions upon children for their own welfare (i.e., curfews and minimum drinking ages), society must also place paternialistic restrictions upon homosexuals for their own welfare (i.e., criminal sanctions for their sexual conduct; deprivation of civil rights).

It doesn't make sense. Children eventually grow up. When they become adults, the civil disabilities placed on their childhood status are removed.

If we follow through to the logical conclusion of your analogy, we are left with this: When homosexuals (persons who need special protection) become heterosexuals (persons who do not need special protection), then the civil disabilities placed on their sexual orientation status are removed.

Doesn't make sense to me. I'll never buy an argument that society must treat homosexuals like children and deprive homosexuals of their civil rights for their own good.
0 Replies
 
SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 11:27 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
Homophobia, by definition, embraces all forms of aversion to homosexuals and homosexuality. It makes no difference whether people want to couch their homophobia in terms that describe homosexuality as "abnormal or sinful." They are still voicing their aversion. It doesn't matter if they couch their homophobia in terms of moral disapproval for "religious reasons." They are still voicing their aversion. Although people may object to be labeled "homophobic," they continue to espouse homophobic views.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

And homophobia by any other name is still homophobia.


Perhaps it would have made sense if I had quoted this. My point had nothing to do with society needing to restrict homosexuality. ALL I was trying to say if that it is possible to have a religious view against homosexuality without being homophobic. I did not even want to express whether that was an appropriate view. Only that it is possible.

In that sense the analogy fits adequately. It is possible to be concerned over an issue without any form of phobia. And likewise it is possible to be against homosexuality without any malice or fear of homosexuals.The concepts are rightly associated, but not equivalent.
0 Replies
 
SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 11:38 pm
Let me also add that the analogy may be interpreted well enough without any implication that homosexuals are childish, or immature (I would wager they are more mature on average).

The point of using a child in the analogy, is because that is how I believe the leaders of most religions would view their "guiding influence." There are even religions where the leaders are called "father" for similar reasons. Or where God is called "Father" because we are all viewed as children before him.

Look at the above from an entirely anthropologic view. It doesn't matter if you believe it yourself. The fact is that some people do, and those who do may resort to the teachings of the bible, and come to the conclusion that homosexuals have strayed and generally be concerned for their spiritual wellfare.

By far not the norm, but possible.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 12:04 am
McGentrix wrote:
Then it Christiophobia so many of you exhibit?


I have no aversion to Christians. I think the Christians and I have the same God (except I view God as loving and benevolent -- and they view God as hateful and vindictive.) I don't dictate to Christians whom they may sleep with or whom they may marry. I don't go to the polls for the purpose of depriving Christians of their civil rights. It's just not one of their civil rights to impose their views of hate and vindictiveness on others through the power of the state.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 12:09 am
SCoates wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
Homophobia, by definition, embraces all forms of aversion to homosexuals and homosexuality. It makes no difference whether people want to couch their homophobia in terms that describe homosexuality as "abnormal or sinful." They are still voicing their aversion. It doesn't matter if they couch their homophobia in terms of moral disapproval for "religious reasons." They are still voicing their aversion. Although people may object to be labeled "homophobic," they continue to espouse homophobic views.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

And homophobia by any other name is still homophobia.


Perhaps it would have made sense if I had quoted this. My point had nothing to do with society needing to restrict homosexuality. ALL I was trying to say if that it is possible to have a religious view against homosexuality without being homophobic. I did not even want to express whether that was an appropriate view. Only that it is possible.

In that sense the analogy fits adequately. It is possible to be concerned over an issue without any form of phobia. And likewise it is possible to be against homosexuality without any malice or fear of homosexuals.The concepts are rightly associated, but not equivalent.


Just a little reality check, SCoates: The alleged paternalistic "concern" that homosexuality is bad for homosexuals is still based on an aversion to homosexuality.
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 12:55 am
Debra I really enjoyed the article you posted from the Dept. of Health. It illustrates the view that I have: namely that homosexual marriage in no way devalues or tarnishes heterosexual marriage. Nor do I ascribe to any of the past arguments which try to say that if we allow homosexual marriage we must allow polygamy or incest.

My position on this issue has remained consistent for some time now. Legally, we cannot arbitrarily give heterosexual couples rights that we do not give to others based on sexual orientation. Marriage is a great way to raise children, and I agree with most people that it is also in serious trouble. The number of children born out of wedlock is rising, and the number of marriages ending in divorce is also disturbing. Unfortunately, excluding homosexuals will not make it better. Besides, there is no evidence that allowing gay marriage will harm marriage or children in any way.

However, I am a reasonable guy, and I think a reasonable compromise is the implementation of civil unions. That way the word "marriage" is reserved for man + woman, yet homosexuals get the legal rights which they deserve. Each side gives up a little, but each side gains a little too. Am I alone in thinking this is a moderate stance?

That aside, this brings me to an important point. How does labeling an opponent of this issue a bigot or a homophobe help the issue?? How does it advance your views? More likely it just puts people on the defensive. By labeling this thread in such a way, it becomes nearly impossible to achieve any kind of consensus. I can no longer change my opinion, because if I do, then I too become a homophobe. This is no way to facilitate an open debate. Sad

That said, *most* of the individuals who have posted have performed admirably by debating the issue and not calling others names. Maybe there is hope for the world! :wink:
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 01:02 am
The problem which arises from substituting a term, "civil union," for marriage is that other jurisdictions are free to ignore the legal ramifications of what is not a marriage. Because of comity, states recognize the legal enactments of other states. If you married in Oklahoma, when you move to Rhode Island, you marriage will be recognized in all of its legal ramifications. If you were joined in a civil union, and Rhode Island has no such institution, or its institution of civil union does not include all of the rights inherent in marriage, Rhode Island is free to deny you the benefits which accrue from marriage.

Similarly, the Federal Government will recognize one's entitlements through marriage for all of the rights, privileges and obligations arising from its legislative code and regulatory policy only if one is legally married.

Civil union is a dodge, and those who lead the devout flocks know it, even if their sheep do not.
0 Replies
 
SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 01:18 am
Debra_Law wrote:
SCoates wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
Homophobia, by definition, embraces all forms of aversion to homosexuals and homosexuality. It makes no difference whether people want to couch their homophobia in terms that describe homosexuality as "abnormal or sinful." They are still voicing their aversion. It doesn't matter if they couch their homophobia in terms of moral disapproval for "religious reasons." They are still voicing their aversion. Although people may object to be labeled "homophobic," they continue to espouse homophobic views.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

And homophobia by any other name is still homophobia.


Perhaps it would have made sense if I had quoted this. My point had nothing to do with society needing to restrict homosexuality. ALL I was trying to say if that it is possible to have a religious view against homosexuality without being homophobic. I did not even want to express whether that was an appropriate view. Only that it is possible.

In that sense the analogy fits adequately. It is possible to be concerned over an issue without any form of phobia. And likewise it is possible to be against homosexuality without any malice or fear of homosexuals.The concepts are rightly associated, but not equivalent.


Just a little reality check, SCoates: The alleged paternalistic "concern" that homosexuality is bad for homosexuals is still based on an aversion to homosexuality.


No matter how you choose to word it, a genuine concern is not a phobia.
But if you chose to redefine everything until you are correct, you are welcome to your semantic victory.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 01:23 am
You miss the point altogether SCoates. Your concern that homosexuality is bad for homosexuals is predicated upon an assumption that homosexual activity is inherently dangerous in one degree or another, for some reason which you have not specified. It is part and parcel of the contention that homosexuality is abnormal and sinful. Therefore, it is every bit as homophobic as any other contention the basis for which is an assumption that homosexual activity is inherently wrong.
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 01:25 am
Setanta wrote:
The problem which arises from substituting a term, "civil union," for marriage is that other jurisdictions are free to ignore the legal ramifications of what is not a marriage. Because of comity, states recognize the legal enactments of other states. If you married in Oklahoma, when you move to Rhode Island, you marriage will be recognized in all of its legal ramifications. If you were joined in a civil union, and Rhode Island has no such institution, or its institution of civil union does not include all of the rights inherent in marriage, Rhode Island is free to deny you the benefits which accrue from marriage.

Similarly, the Federal Government will recognize one's entitlements through marriage for all of the rights, privileges and obligations arising from its legislative code and regulatory policy only if one is legally married.

Civil union is a dodge, and those who lead the devout flocks know it, even if their sheep do not.


How is this resolved if one state allows marriage between gays and another state does not? Wouldn't there still be the same problem of comity? I don't see the distinction.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 01:26 am
While we're at it, unless and until you provide a description of what harm arises from the state of being homosexual, you have no defense against that charge that your basic reasoning is homophobic in nature. That's not to say that providing an explanation will get you off the hook--the explanation you provide, if you bother to explain yourself, might well patently arise from a homophobic attitude--we cannot know until you explain yourself.
0 Replies
 
 

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