Wiyaka wrote:Coastalrat. I agree with your problem with name calling. It's done no good here, for anyone. However, I've stated my reasons for supporting same sex marriage without getting into a discussion of theology. They are economic and legal, not religious or spiritual. I believe that I presented them fairly well in previous postings. I'm not sure where you get your facts about Sam recieving benefits as my spouse. A power of attorney won't allow her to have the same benfits that my previous spouses would enjoy, when I was a man. the federal government denies same sex partners the same benefits as hetro sexual spouses, plain and simple. If need be, I'll take the time to dig the exact name of the law and post it, but trust me it's on the books since Clinton signed it in 1996.
Please don't use the smoke screen about bestiality, incest and polygamists, those are diversionary tactics. After all, there are many in your Bible that were polygamists, including Moses and Solomon. According to what I've read, Lot's daughters lay with him after his wife was turned to salt.These are considered by the Christians I know to have had a major impact on the religions of Christianity, Islam and Judhism. Besides the topic is about same sex marriage and those that oppose it, not bestiality, incest or polygamy as refered to in . Should you feel the need, why not start a thread on it? It might be interesting.
I can't speak for those that follow those beliefs. I've studied them and was once very active in the Catholic Church, even being a 4th Degree Knight of Columbus. However, That's in the past, when I lied about who and what I am. I now follow Lakota spirituallity and have found no adverse reaction for my marrying Sam legally, from any of the Elders that I've met.
I guess my point is this, our country was founded on the many principles. One of these principles is the separation of Church and State. IMO It appears that the US is heading in the direction of a State Church and I personaly would hate to see it happen. By imposing religious values onto the people of the US that don't follow or wish to believe as you or others may , it causes many forms of pain, frustration and feelings of alienation.
Perhaps a thread on the moral sides of this issue is in order. However, I am not one to judge another's spiritual belief nor do I have the right to impose my beliefs on others. I only ask that others respect that and show me the same respect.
Regarding a previous posting of yours. I'm not sure where you live, but in my state of WI same sex marriages are not allowed. This is something that Sam and I are trying very hard to change. We don't want to have to work harder for the things that hetrosexuals do. IMO that's like telling a woman that she needs to work harder to have the same pay and benefits as a man in a simalr situation.
BTW, IMO you and your family are more open minded than mine, regarding same sex partners. Let me give you a few true examples of the differences. I have seven grandchildren by my two daughters, I'm not able to see my grandchildren because my children disagree with my lifestyle. When I went to a family reunion a few years ago, a younger brother looked at his hand in horror, after shaking my hand. My family doesn't contact me, even when a brother was in a coma for ten days. I'm used to these things and am beyond feeling sad or angery over them. I simply submit them as examples of how so people percieve us.
Now, if there is nothing beyond emotional or religious responses regarding the issue of same sex marriages, I'll post elsewhere.
Don't think I said anything about Sam getting your benefits. I would not make statements of fact unless I know it to be fact, so I think you may have something confused there.
The problem with believing that religious beliefs have no place in this discussion is silly. The totality of my beliefs is shaped by many things, just as yours are. Society, upbringing, religious faith and such all have a bearing on what each of us believes. My faith shapes my values and beliefs. That does not invalidate my beliefs anymore than the fact that your lack of faith in a Christian God invalidates your beliefs. We are equal in that respect. If Billy Graham himself declared that he now believes the Bible says homosexuality is not a sin but a normal lifestyle, I still would not campaign for same sex marriages. Just as if science came out and categorically stated that homosexuality is a choice, you would not stop campaigning for same sex marriage. It is a part of who we are based on many factors, not just religion/faith or whatever.
Nor have I claimed that the Fed government does not grant certain benefits to married people. It does. But again, here you are not treated any more unequally than anyone else who is not married under the current laws. You are not being discriminated against.
As for beastiality, incest, polygamy and such, I did not use them to justify keeping same sex partners from marrying. I just pointed out that the marriage laws currently are non-discriminatory. They apply equally to you as they do to everyone else, whether they claim to be heterosexual, polygamists or whatever.
I am in SC and of course the laws here are basically the same concerning marriage as they are in WI.
I consider myself nothing more than an average Christian. I think, although of course it is my opinion, that the average Christian thinks the same way. I'm sorry your family has totally rejected you. I just see a big difference between rejecting the way a person lives and rejecting a person. I disagree with my brother's lifestlye and the language uses. But I could no more stop loving him or seeing him than I could tell my wife to take a hike. So I find it difficult to understand how family can treat you or anyone else that way, even though I know it happens.
You and I will always disagree on the issue of same sex marriage and I think we can both live with that. It was never my intention to get on this thread and defend my views on that issue or to debate that issue. My only reason was to point out the idiocy of believing that opponents of same sex marriage are homophobic. Just as it would be idiocy for me to claim that all proponents of same sex marriage must be homosexuals. Neither is the case.
