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The anti-gay marriage movement IS homophobic

 
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 03:21 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
I guess everyone on A2K already knows I value politicians less than attorneys (although the majority of them are lawyers) and used car salesmen. At least they are manageable -- politicians are not. Sure you can change horses and vote another guy in but strangely the complexion of things don't really change much without some outside force. Like nature deciding to turn the inaugural into an icebox. He's getting a cold reception even from Mother Nature (who may are may not be married to God).



Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 03:27 pm
The Bible was written by a bunch or wandering scribes (secretaries) who claimed they were putting down the word of God. Today if someone says God is speaking to them, a rational person doubts their sanity.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 03:36 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
It's the extraordinary malevolent glee that Sir Lawrence Olivier emoted while drilling on the teeth that is pertinent here.


Don't ya miss the guy, LW?
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Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 04:11 pm
CoastalRat wrote:
Chrissee wrote:
CoastalRat wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
As for the states v. federal issue, I believe that the state vote plan is better than a federal vote plan in that it mirrors currently existing laws on marriage. But I still think gov't intervention may be neccessary if the people can't get their irrational fears out of the way.
Cycloptichorn


But I thought the people were the government, not the other way around. You seem to be saying that if the ignorant masses can't get it right (as defined by who?), then all-knowing government should force it down our throats. Do I understand you correctly? Otherwise, this government "of the people, by the people and for the people" has perished.


"Majority Rules" doesn't apply to the Constitution.


Gay marriages are not covered in there either. quote]

Yes they are.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 04:39 pm
Chrissee wrote:
CoastalRat wrote:
Chrissee wrote:
CoastalRat wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
As for the states v. federal issue, I believe that the state vote plan is better than a federal vote plan in that it mirrors currently existing laws on marriage. But I still think gov't intervention may be neccessary if the people can't get their irrational fears out of the way.
Cycloptichorn


But I thought the people were the government, not the other way around. You seem to be saying that if the ignorant masses can't get it right (as defined by who?), then all-knowing government should force it down our throats. Do I understand you correctly? Otherwise, this government "of the people, by the people and for the people" has perished.


"Majority Rules" doesn't apply to the Constitution.


Gay marriages are not covered in there either. quote]

Yes they are.


Read the Constitution Chrissee and tell me where there is any mention of marriage of any kind. There is none. Again, you make a statement as though you know it as fact but don't bother giving proof. I'm always willing to be proved wrong, so please, please point me to the passage in the Constitution that mentions marriage. I will be looking for your response.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 06:26 pm
I believe Chissee is refering to the equal rights part of the constitution, four years ago used to elect a President.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 06:28 pm
Those states that are passing laws forbidding a certain segment of society from getting married will be tested in court. I think I know which way it will go unless the USSC becomes a radical right, God would not approve pack of bullshitters. Hmmm, maybe it already is.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 07:57 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
I believe Chissee is refering to the equal rights part of the constitution, four years ago used to elect a President.


Why must people continually twist things around. I stated that the Constitution does not mention anything about marriages, gay or hetero. Chrissee said it did mention gay marriage. The equal rights part of the constitution says nothing about gay marriage. It is being used to somehow prove that gays do not have the same rights to marry (even though they do have the exact same rights to marry anyone of the opposite sex they choose, just as heteros do, but that is another argument).

Now Chrissee could easily have stated that gay marriage was in her opinion supported in the constitution by the equal rights part. But she did not. In response to my statement that "gay marriages are not covered in there (constitution)" she said "yes they are." So I defy her or anyone else to show me where gay marriage is covered. I seriously doubt the framers ever imagined this clause being used to allow gays to marry.

So please, you can argue all you want that the equal rights clause is a valid argument for allowing gay marriage (and you could possibly have a point), but don't try to tell me the constitution has anything to say about who can or cannot marry. It does not. Nothing about gay marriage. Nothing about heterosexual marriage. Nada. Zip.

Now I think I will shut up on the matter before I call someone an idiot and get reprimanded or kicked off of here for some length of time. It just is not worth discussing with someone who decides that facts are whatever she believes and the heck with needing to prove it.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 08:00 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
Those states that are passing laws forbidding a certain segment of society from getting married will be tested in court. I think I know which way it will go unless the USSC becomes a radical right, God would not approve pack of bullshitters. Hmmm, maybe it already is.


I agree that this will end up in the USSC. I'm not so sure about the outcome, but to be quite honest, it could go either way. Whichever way it goes will be the law and we will all have to abide by it. But it is going to be a dicey and divisive issue in any case. Heck, based on conversations here about all us homophobic opponents of gay marriage, maybe it already is a pretty divisive issue.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 09:00 pm
And I could possibly have a point? That's exactly the clause used in the civil rights movement and it will be in this conflagration. Of course, you already know she didn't mean the Consitution specifically mentions gay marriage or marriage at all.
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Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 10:07 pm
CR, a basic knowledge of law and civics is assumed of anyone posting on a political board, it is not my job to prove things that are obvious. That said, I think the present make-up of SCOTUS will not overturn state laws banning same sex marriage, I think it will be years before this is done but remember at one time it was unlawful for protestants to marry Catholics.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 10:16 pm
A basic knowledge of English is also assumed. It was never "unlawful" for protestants to marry catholics in any of the states.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 10:47 pm
Perhaps Chrissee could argue the case before the Supreme Court -- she doesn't have to prove anything.

My forecast is that the Supreme Court will decline to hear any such case, or, in the very unlikely event it is heard, will apply the kind of discriminatory logic that Thomas posed earlier in reaching a decision. The Constitution and the appellate records are clear that this is a matter for the several states to determine, and I believe the recent expressions of public sentiment at the pools will guide the various state courts as well.

This, of course will (if it occurs as I have described) confound and contradict the points that so many here describe as self-evident and beyond question. You should then consider the possibility that you are wrong.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2005 05:47 am
Well, as the various state courts and the SC find themselves commonly divided on this issue, we ought not to be surprised that we are too. What Scalia might find 'self-evident' or aligned with the fundamentals of american history and values, Ginsburg might not.

Part of our problem here is that sociological categories are ususally pretty messy. 'Conservative' means something, but the members of that 'class' show variation that intersect with the class 'liberal' or libertarian or in some cases, anarchist. This ain't apples vs oranges.

A relevant item has just come to our attention with the firing of Arabic speakers in the military at a time when that particular skill has a somewhat acute importance LINK . Now, can we say the US military is 'homophobic' (aversion to, predjudice or discrimination against homosexuals or homosexuality)? Can we say it isn't? Can we make any valid or reasonable or illuminating statement at all about human groups, given their internal diversity? If not, then the concept 'American' could be coherent only regarding someone with approved citizenship.

Could we say homophobia is greater in Saudi Arabia than in Canada?

We could say, looking at the case above, 'some in the military are homophobic' surely. Or even that a particular policy demonstrates homophobia. Yes? No? (and by the way, who the hell was it that put the demon in demonstrate?)

Can we say that taboo X is extant in culture Y? Can we say it is influential? Can we say that it is fundamentally causal in group behavior and opinion?
0 Replies
 
Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2005 08:20 am
HofT wrote:
A basic knowledge of English is also assumed. It was never "unlawful" for protestants to marry catholics in any of the states.


Correction:

I thought I had read that sometime ago but I must be mistaken as I could not find any evidence of it. So I amend my statement to read:

Remember there was a time that marriage between Catholics and Protestants was not tolerated.

Chrissee regrets the error.

-------------------------------------------------
BTW what does that have to do with English?
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Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2005 08:30 am
georgeob1 wrote:

This, of course will (if it occurs as I have described) confound and contradict the points that so many here describe as self-evident and beyond question. You should then consider the possibility that you are wrong.


It doesn't contradict anything. All it does is speak to the extreme conservative makeup of the current court. Obviously none of us here are qualified to argue the constitutionality of the states allowing or disallowing gay marriage. But from a lay point of view, we know that fundamental rights are protected by the US Constitution. (Including non-enumerated rights, IX amendment) As society becomes more tolerant of alternative lifestyles, these attitudes will be refelected in our lawsand court decisions. It may take awhile but we shall overcome some day.

BTW you might investigate the attitudes of the echo-boomers, the generation now entering adulthood. When that generation takes over, look out!
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2005 09:06 am
You have it backwards. It is the courts that have been the most supportive of the gay rights agenda, in Massachusetts particularly. It is the state legislatures and the people in elections who have opposed it consistently. Despite this, I believe my forecast above is accurate.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2005 09:15 am
Never mind, Crissee, this is the first and last time I correct an error in such an argument. Views on gun control and higher taxes sank the Democrats in 1994. Views on same-sex marriage may well do the same in the next electoral cycle - the louder voices like yours are heard the better.

More generally:
_____________________________________________________________

"Not since 1928 has a president continued GOP control of the White House into a new term along with a re-elected Republican House and Senate.........The Republican test going forward, and one voters should hold them to, is whether the party can now put its permanent stamp on Washington in a way that is consistent with its professed conservative philosophy. More than just a challenge for Mr. Bush, the next two years will tell us if this GOP majority is made to last or will be as evanescent as the Whigs."
_____________________________________________________________
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pgigot/?id=110006179
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Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2005 09:39 am
georgeob1 wrote:
You have it backwards. It is the courts that have been the most supportive of the gay rights agenda, in Massachusetts particularly. It is the state legislatures and the people in elections who have opposed it consistently. Despite this, I believe my forecast above is accurate.


I don't have anything backwards, I was speaking of SCOTUS, unless I missed something they haven't addressed the issue yet. I am sure you will never live to see it as I assume your are as old as your regressive attitudes make you appear to be, but there will come a day when same sex marriages will be legal in every state in the United States.
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Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2005 10:33 am
HofT, GW Bush is the least popular second-termer in history and came 100,000 votes or so short of being the first wartime president ever to lose a second term.

Basic human rights are more imporatnt to me than any party and I know it is just a matter of time before the progressives take over.

It will soon shake your windows and rattle your doors cause the times they are a-changin'.
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