May 15, 2007
Lawyers Argue Legal Status of Gay Unions
By JENNIFER MEDINA
New York Times
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If the court found that gays and lesbians were a suspect class, the state would be required to prove that it had rational basis for making a distinction between homosexual and heterosexual couples.
(and the right to marry is a fundamental right)
You're making your case by inference, at least as so far as regards Loving, which does not specifically mention procreation.
Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival. Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541 (1942).
In Skinner v. Oklahoma, the court had invalidated an Oklahoma law under which the state sought to castrate Skinner, a habitual small-time criminal. That case was at its core about the fundamental right to procreate. So Loving does specifically mention procreation. Its point about the basic civil right rests on it, and arguably never applied apply to gay marriage. Same sex marriages never were "fundamental to our very existence and survival".
Loving's equal protection argument seems to provide a much stronger argument against the exclusion of gays from the institution of marriage.
The single mention of marriage is Douglas's statement that "Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race." To the extent, then, that Skinner has anything to say about marriage, it amounts to obiter dicta (i.e. a statement that is not relevant to the holding, and therefore without any precedential effect).
Consequently, Warren's citation to Skinner as supporting the notion that marriage is a fundamental right was, strictly speaking, improper, since Skinner didn't actually rule that marriage was a fundamental right.
Warren also cited Maynard v. Hill in support of his contention that marriage is a fundamental right.
Warren, after all, states that "The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men." It seems more likely, then, that Warren saw marriage as part of the right to "pursue happiness," rather than as based on the narrower grounds of procreation and the "survival of the race."
In other words, if the state sought to avoid granting marriages to homosexuals by outlawing all marriage, its action would still run afoul of the due process clause.
I don't think we're that far apart on this one. The way I parse Warren's very brief treatment of marriage as a fundamental right, he implicitly seems to take for granted the mores of his time. Outside of hippie communes, this meant that procreation should only happen inside a particular legal framework, and this framework was marriage. As procreation is without doubt "fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race", so is the legal framework to procreate within. So as I read the passage, Warren's citation was proper under the social mores prevailing in the America of 1968. But it has been obsoleted for straight marriage by changes in mores since then, and it never applied to gay marriage.
Indeed he did. I just read that decision to prepare my response to you, and now I have no idea why Warren would quote it in relation to a fundamental right. As I understand, Field's opinion spends a lot of time discussing whether the court should properly approach marriage as a contract or as a public institution. After much review of common law and state supreme court decisions, he concludes that it's mainly a public institution, and that the state may regulate it as such.
Considering this, what business does Maynard v. Hillhave in a passage about fundamental rights? I have no idea what was on Warren's mind when he cited it. I can only speculate that Warren's clerk dug it up, Warren saw that the decision was about marriage and written by Steven Field, the pioneer of the Supreme Court's "freedom of contract" and "substantive due process" jurisprudence. Warren must have concluded that this was a freedom of contract case, and slapped it into his Loving decision just to cite one more case for good measure. I don't know what else to make of the citation.
Debra Law wrote:(and the right to marry is a fundamental right)
Is it? Independent of procreation?
If I remember correctly, the Supreme Court found marriage to be a fundamental right in Loving v. Virginia. Citing Skinner v. Oklahoma, the court noted that procreation was a fundamental right. Then it observed that marriage was very closely connected to procreation. The court concluded that this link made the right to marry a fundamental one too. (These are my words, not the court's, but I think they reasonably summarize the court's argument.)
So on the face of it, Loving's "fundamental right" argument for gay marriage seems to break down for same sex marriage, as barely anything connects marriage with procreation in this case.
Am I missing something here? Has the Supreme Court, in its later decisions, given other arguments why marriage is a fundamental right?
But again, the government has never required an ability to procreate as a prerequisite to entering a valid marriage contract.
Debra Law wrote:But again, the government has never required an ability to procreate as a prerequisite to entering a valid marriage contract.
I'm not sure about your "never", but I agree it's been a couple of centuries since it had.
(The reason I'm not sure about your "never" is that to my knowledge, old age used to be a marriage impediment under Blackstone-era Anglican canon law. Old English law deferred to Anglican canon law concerning marriage impediments (see Blackstone's commentaries under "Of husband and wife"). After America declared independence, states passed their own laws where England had deferred to the Anglican church. But in practice, these laws were more or less copy-and-paste jobs from old Anglican canon law. (See Tucker's commentaries on Blackstone's commentaries under "Of husband and wife".) While none of this is proof that America ever considered infertility a marriage impediment, I think there's room for reasonable doubt about your "never".)
But admittedly, it has been a few centuries, so my hair splitting about 18th century marriage impediments is moot in terms of discussing gay marriage today.
Oh and by the way: it's great to see you back, Debra!
The "holiness" of a marriage was left solely to the determination of the church, but the civil law considered marriage as a civil contract. The requirements for entering a valid civil contract of marriage were: 1) the effective consent of the parties to contract, 2) the ability to contract (no disabilities/impediments), and 3) execution of the contract in accordance with the procedures required by law.
NOW these disabilities are of two sorts: first, such as are canonical, and therefore sufficient by the ecclesiastical laws to avoid the marriage in the spiritual court; but these in our law only make the marriage voidable, and not ipso facto void, until sentence of nullity be obtained. Of this nature are pre-contract; consanguinity, or relation by blood; and affinity, or relation by marriage; and some particular corporal infirmities.
I have looked, but cannot find where old age would serve as an impediment to entering a valid civil contract of marriage.
Homosexuality - We believe that the practice of sodomy tears at the fabric of society, contributes to the breakdown of the family unit, and leads to the spread of dangerous, communicable diseases. Homosexual behavior is contrary to the fundamental, unchanging truths that have been ordained by God, recognized by our country's founders, and shared by the majority of Texans. Homosexuality must not be presented as an acceptable "alternative" lifestyle in our public education and policy, nor should "family" be redefined to include homosexual "couples." We are opposed to any granting of special legal entitlements, recognition, or privileges including, but not limited to, marriage between persons of the same sex, custody of children by homosexuals, homosexual partner insurance or retirement benefits. We oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values.
Texas Sodomy Statutes - We oppose the legalization of sodomy. We demand that Congress exercise its authority granted by the U.S. Constitution to withhold jurisdiction from the federal courts from cases involving sodomy.
Yesterday, I drove from Oregon to the Canadian border and then returned. That was about 12 hours of driving and to pass the time, I decided to listen to right wing am radio...a bit of Praeger and a lot of Rush Limbaugh.
Rush, predictably, spent a LOT of time talking about the Columbia appearance and speech of the Iranian president. One aspect of the speech Rush focused on was the President's denial of homosexuality in Iran and also on how homosexuals are actually treated. Such treatment of a minority by the Iranian regisme is, to Rush's mind, indefensible.
Of course, Rush wasn't alone in pointing to these statements. Concomitant, of course, is the "why aren't liberals yelling about this?". A liberal hypocrisy thing, if you haven't got the drift already.
Of course, there is this...
2006 STATE REPUBLICAN PARTY PLATFORM
Quote:http://www.texasgop.org/site/DocServer/Platform_Updated.pdf?docID=2001Homosexuality - We believe that the practice of sodomy tears at the fabric of society, contributes to the breakdown of the family unit, and leads to the spread of dangerous, communicable diseases. Homosexual behavior is contrary to the fundamental, unchanging truths that have been ordained by God, recognized by our country's founders, and shared by the majority of Texans. Homosexuality must not be presented as an acceptable "alternative" lifestyle in our public education and policy, nor should "family" be redefined to include homosexual "couples." We are opposed to any granting of special legal entitlements, recognition, or privileges including, but not limited to, marriage between persons of the same sex, custody of children by homosexuals, homosexual partner insurance or retirement benefits. We oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values.
Texas Sodomy Statutes - We oppose the legalization of sodomy. We demand that Congress exercise its authority granted by the U.S. Constitution to withhold jurisdiction from the federal courts from cases involving sodomy.
Which liberals are you referring to, finn? Why not do a poll here on a2k of the members who consider themselves liberals and ask what they think about a theocratic/political regime which ostracizes and demonizes homosexuals, denies homosexuals equality under the law, criminalizes homosexual acts, and punishes such with incarceration, whippings and even execution.
You could inquire as to what they think about these things in Iran and what they think about these same things, where applicable, in the Texas Republican Party Platform?
Please poll.
What are Liberals prepared to support to help Iranian homosexuals (not to mention Iranian women, students, intellectuals and [oh yes] liberals).
Sound and fury...sound and fury.
I need no A2K poll to know that Liberals are not crying out for the overthrow of the Iranian regime.
