23
   

The anti-gay marriage movement IS homophobic

 
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2007 03:25 am
Re: Lawyers Argue Legal Status of Gay Unions
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
May 15, 2007
Lawyers Argue Legal Status of Gay Unions
By JENNIFER MEDINA
New York Times

* * *

If the court found that gays and lesbians were a suspect class, the state would be required to prove that it had rational basis for making a distinction between homosexual and heterosexual couples.



This statement from the article isn't true. The rational basis test does not apply to governmental regulations that subject a suspect class to disparate treatment.

When a government regulation infringes upon a fundamental right (and the right to marry is a fundamental right) or subjects a suspect class to disparate treatment, courts apply the "strict scrutiny" test to determine whether the regulation is valid. To pass the strict scrutiny, the government must prove that the challenged classification serves a compelling state interest and that the classification is necessary and narrowly tailored to serve that interest.

The courts apply "intermediate scrutiny" to quasi-suspect classifications, e.g., classifications based on gender and illegitimacy. To pass intermediate scrutiny, the government must prove that the challenged classification serves an important state interest and that the classification is substantially related to serving that interest.

For all other challenges to a government regulation, the courts apply the "rational basis" test. The government must prove that the challenged classification is rationally related to serving a legitimate state interest.

The "separate but equal" argument may have initially prevailed, but ultimately failed to stand up to judicial review when states attempted to justify segregated schools based on race. Similarly, the "separate but equal" argument won't hold up when the state attempts to justify separate institutions for couples based on sexual orientation--civil unions for homosexuals; marriage for heterosexuals. Even under the lowest level of scrutiny, the disparate treatment of gays is not rationally related to any possible legitimate state interest. A state can never justify treating an entire segment of its population as second-class citizens.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2007 04:06 am
Re: Lawyers Argue Legal Status of Gay Unions
Debra Law wrote:
(and the right to marry is a fundamental right)

Is it? Independent of procreation? If I remember correctly, the Supreme Court found marriage to be a fundamental right in Loving v. Virginia. Citing Skinner v. Oklahoma, the court noted that procreation was a fundamental right. Then it observed that marriage was very closely connected to procreation. The court concluded that this link made the right to marry a fundamental one too. (These are my words, not the court's, but I think they reasonably summarize the court's argument.)

So on the face of it, Loving's "fundamental right" argument for gay marriage seems to break down for same sex marriage, as barely anything connects marriage with procreation in this case.

Am I missing something here? Has the Supreme Court, in its later decisions, given other arguments why marriage is a fundamental right?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2007 03:54 pm
I think you're adding something to Loving versus Virginia which just was not there, Thomas. Their argument was a XIVth Amendment argument, that citizens of Virginia were being denied a basic right without due process of law.


In the court's opinion
, they wrote:

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival. Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541 (1942). See also Maynard v. Hill, 125 U.S. 190 (1888). To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

These convictions must be reversed.

It is so ordered.


You're making your case by inference, at least as so far as regards Loving, which does not specifically mention procreation. The argument in Loving is very specifically that an individual's right to marry may not be restricted, based on the principle of equality as established by the XIVth Amendment, without due process of law.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2007 05:28 pm
Setanta wrote:
You're making your case by inference, at least as so far as regards Loving, which does not specifically mention procreation.

Oh, but it does, in the very paragraph you quoted:

Setanta, citing the Supreme Court, wrote:
Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival. Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541 (1942).

In Skinner v. Oklahoma, the court had invalidated an Oklahoma law under which the state sought to castrate Skinner, a habitual small-time criminal. That case was at its core about the fundamental right to procreate. So Loving does specifically mention procreation. Its point about the basic civil right rests on it, and arguably never applied apply to gay marriage. Same sex marriages never were "fundamental to our very existence and survival". Loving's equal protection argument seems to provide a much stronger argument against the exclusion of gays from the institution of marriage.

That said, I agree I should have re-read the case before posting about it, instead of summarizing it from memory. Thanks for keeping me honest.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 08:29 am
Thomas wrote:
In Skinner v. Oklahoma, the court had invalidated an Oklahoma law under which the state sought to castrate Skinner, a habitual small-time criminal. That case was at its core about the fundamental right to procreate. So Loving does specifically mention procreation. Its point about the basic civil right rests on it, and arguably never applied apply to gay marriage. Same sex marriages never were "fundamental to our very existence and survival".

Well ... no. You're right that Skinner is a procreation case. But it is only a procreation case. The single mention of marriage is Douglas's statement that "Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race." To the extent, then, that Skinner has anything to say about marriage, it amounts to obiter dicta (i.e. a statement that is not relevant to the holding, and therefore without any precedential effect).

Consequently, Warren's citation to Skinner as supporting the notion that marriage is a fundamental right was, strictly speaking, improper, since Skinner didn't actually rule that marriage was a fundamental right. Indeed, Skinner didn't even hold that procreation was a fundamental right: the majority struck down the Oklahoma statute on the narrower ground that it violated the equal protection clause of the fourteenth amendment (Chief Justice Stone, in contrast, argued that the court should have held that procreation was a fundamental right by deciding the case under the due process clause).

Warren also cited Maynard v. Hill in support of his contention that marriage is a fundamental right. Unlike the dicta in Skinner, however, the Maynard opinion doesn't say anything about procreation being the sole or main object of marriage. If anything, Justice Field, the author of the Maynard opinion, identified the object of marriage "as having more to do with the morals and civilization of a people than any other institution." For Field, then, marriage was fundamental to society (but not a fundamental right -- Field never says that) because it was all about morality, not about procreation.

In sum, then, Loving is the first case that explicitly rules that marriage is a fundamental civil right. In effect, Warren (in the very brief section II of his opinion), adopts Chief Justice Stone's argument in Skinner. Whether he also adopted Douglas's rather tenuous rationale for justifying marriage on the grounds of procreation, however, is doubtful at best. Warren, after all, states that "The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men." It seems more likely, then, that Warren saw marriage as part of the right to "pursue happiness," rather than as based on the narrower grounds of procreation and the "survival of the race."

Thomas wrote:
Loving's equal protection argument seems to provide a much stronger argument against the exclusion of gays from the institution of marriage.

Maybe. The court in Lawrence v. Texas, for instance, found that state sodomy laws violated the due process clause, not that they violated the equal protection clause. The court specifically declined to address the issue on equal protection grounds, stating "Were we to hold the statute invalid under the Equal Protection Clause some might question whether a prohibition would be valid if drawn differently, say, to prohibit the conduct both between same-sex and different-sex participants." If marriage is a fundamental right, however, there can be no way that a state could "draw the lines differently" to achieve a result acceptable under equal protection grounds. In other words, if the state sought to avoid granting marriages to homosexuals by outlawing all marriage, its action would still run afoul of the due process clause.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 09:34 am
joefromchicago wrote:
The single mention of marriage is Douglas's statement that "Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race." To the extent, then, that Skinner has anything to say about marriage, it amounts to obiter dicta (i.e. a statement that is not relevant to the holding, and therefore without any precedential effect).

Consequently, Warren's citation to Skinner as supporting the notion that marriage is a fundamental right was, strictly speaking, improper, since Skinner didn't actually rule that marriage was a fundamental right.

I don't think we're that far apart on this one. The way I parse Warren's very brief treatment of marriage as a fundamental right, he implicitly seems to take for granted the mores of his time. Outside of hippie communes, this meant that procreation should only happen inside a particular legal framework, and this framework was marriage. As procreation is without doubt "fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race", so is the legal framework to procreate within. So as I read the passage, Warren's citation was proper under the social mores prevailing in the America of 1968. But it has been obsoleted for straight marriage by changes in mores since then, and it never applied to gay marriage.

joefromchicago wrote:
Warren also cited Maynard v. Hill in support of his contention that marriage is a fundamental right.

Indeed he did. I just read that decision to prepare my response to you, and now I have no idea why Warren would quote it in relation to a fundamental right. As I understand, Field's opinion spends a lot of time discussing whether the court should properly approach marriage as a contract or as a public institution. After much review of common law and state supreme court decisions, he concludes that it's mainly a public institution, and that the state may regulate it as such.

Considering this, what business does Maynard v. Hillhave in a passage about fundamental rights? I have no idea what was on Warren's mind when he cited it. I can only speculate that Warren's clerk dug it up, Warren saw that the decision was about marriage and written by Steven Field, the pioneer of the Supreme Court's "freedom of contract" and "substantive due process" jurisprudence. Warren must have concluded that this was a freedom of contract case, and slapped it into his Loving decision just to cite one more case for good measure. I don't know what else to make of the citation.

joefromchicago wrote:
Warren, after all, states that "The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men." It seems more likely, then, that Warren saw marriage as part of the right to "pursue happiness," rather than as based on the narrower grounds of procreation and the "survival of the race."

Could be -- it certainly would make for a stronger 'substantive due process' argument than the procreation part.

joefromchicago wrote:
In other words, if the state sought to avoid granting marriages to homosexuals by outlawing all marriage, its action would still run afoul of the due process clause.

Depending on the specific mode of "outlawing", that would be too bad.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 10:23 am
Thomas wrote:
I don't think we're that far apart on this one. The way I parse Warren's very brief treatment of marriage as a fundamental right, he implicitly seems to take for granted the mores of his time. Outside of hippie communes, this meant that procreation should only happen inside a particular legal framework, and this framework was marriage. As procreation is without doubt "fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race", so is the legal framework to procreate within. So as I read the passage, Warren's citation was proper under the social mores prevailing in the America of 1968. But it has been obsoleted for straight marriage by changes in mores since then, and it never applied to gay marriage.

Although Warren, no doubt, was operating under the assumptions of his era with regard to marriage and procreation, I'm quite certain that he would have found that marriage was also a fundamental right for infertile heterosexuals who were incapable of perpetuating the species.

Thomas wrote:
Indeed he did. I just read that decision to prepare my response to you, and now I have no idea why Warren would quote it in relation to a fundamental right. As I understand, Field's opinion spends a lot of time discussing whether the court should properly approach marriage as a contract or as a public institution. After much review of common law and state supreme court decisions, he concludes that it's mainly a public institution, and that the state may regulate it as such.

Considering this, what business does Maynard v. Hillhave in a passage about fundamental rights? I have no idea what was on Warren's mind when he cited it. I can only speculate that Warren's clerk dug it up, Warren saw that the decision was about marriage and written by Steven Field, the pioneer of the Supreme Court's "freedom of contract" and "substantive due process" jurisprudence. Warren must have concluded that this was a freedom of contract case, and slapped it into his Loving decision just to cite one more case for good measure. I don't know what else to make of the citation.

Take another look at what he wrote:
    The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.

When a judge says something like "it has long been recognized" or "no one disputes" or "it has always been the case," without citing to any precedent, what he is really saying is "I'm pretty sure I'm right, I just can't find any case law that supports me." Warren, in holding that marriage was a fundamental right, probably cited Skinner and Maynard -- two cases that most definitely did not stand for the proposition that marriage was a fundamental right -- because those were the only two supreme court cases that even came close to saying what he wanted them to say.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 11:46 am
Re: Lawyers Argue Legal Status of Gay Unions
Thomas wrote:
Debra Law wrote:
(and the right to marry is a fundamental right)


Is it? Independent of procreation?


Absolutely. The right to marry is independent from the right to procreate; and the right to procreate is independent from the right to marry. These are two separate rights; they are not codependent. The ability to procreate is not a prerequisite to entering a valid marriage contract.


Quote:
If I remember correctly, the Supreme Court found marriage to be a fundamental right in Loving v. Virginia. Citing Skinner v. Oklahoma, the court noted that procreation was a fundamental right. Then it observed that marriage was very closely connected to procreation. The court concluded that this link made the right to marry a fundamental one too. (These are my words, not the court's, but I think they reasonably summarize the court's argument.)


Skinner is interesting. I haven't looked at it for a long time, but I read it again last night. The SC based its decision on the equal protection clause. It appears that the SC applied a rational basis test--the lowest level of scrutiny. There was no rational basis for the State of Oklahoma to discriminate between repeat felons who commit theft by larceny from repeat felons who commit theft by embezzlement. The former were sterilized whereas the latter were not.

Joe already noted that the brief discussion in the case regarding marriage and procreation was dicta. The Court expressed a concern that evil-empire types could use this type of irrational discrimination between individuals with respect to state-mandated sterilization to commit genocide.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the SC recognized an individual's right to choose whether to "bear and beget" children as a fundamental right until it decided Roe v. Wade.


Quote:
So on the face of it, Loving's "fundamental right" argument for gay marriage seems to break down for same sex marriage, as barely anything connects marriage with procreation in this case.

Am I missing something here? Has the Supreme Court, in its later decisions, given other arguments why marriage is a fundamental right?


If the State has the power to forbid same-sex couples from entering a valid marriage contract simply because they--as a couple--cannot produce a natural child, then the State would have that same power to forbid opposite-sex couples from entering a valid marriage contract unless they could demonstrate that they had the ability to produce a natural child. But again, the government has never required an ability to procreate as a prerequisite to entering a valid marriage contract.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 12:33 pm
Re: Lawyers Argue Legal Status of Gay Unions
Debra Law wrote:
But again, the government has never required an ability to procreate as a prerequisite to entering a valid marriage contract.

I'm not sure about your "never", but I agree it's been a couple of centuries since it had.

(The reason I'm not sure about your "never" is that to my knowledge, old age used to be a marriage impediment under Blackstone-era Anglican canon law. Old English law deferred to Anglican canon law concerning marriage impediments (see Blackstone's commentaries under "Of husband and wife"). After America declared independence, states passed their own laws where England had deferred to the Anglican church. But in practice, these laws were more or less copy-and-paste jobs from old Anglican canon law. (See Tucker's commentaries on Blackstone's commentaries under "Of husband and wife".) While none of this is proof that America ever considered infertility a marriage impediment, I think there's room for reasonable doubt about your "never".)

But admittedly, it has been a few centuries, so my hair splitting about 18th century marriage impediments is moot in terms of discussing gay marriage today.

Oh and by the way: it's great to see you back, Debra!
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 01:33 pm
Re: Lawyers Argue Legal Status of Gay Unions
Thomas wrote:
Debra Law wrote:
But again, the government has never required an ability to procreate as a prerequisite to entering a valid marriage contract.

I'm not sure about your "never", but I agree it's been a couple of centuries since it had.

(The reason I'm not sure about your "never" is that to my knowledge, old age used to be a marriage impediment under Blackstone-era Anglican canon law. Old English law deferred to Anglican canon law concerning marriage impediments (see Blackstone's commentaries under "Of husband and wife"). After America declared independence, states passed their own laws where England had deferred to the Anglican church. But in practice, these laws were more or less copy-and-paste jobs from old Anglican canon law. (See Tucker's commentaries on Blackstone's commentaries under "Of husband and wife".) While none of this is proof that America ever considered infertility a marriage impediment, I think there's room for reasonable doubt about your "never".)

But admittedly, it has been a few centuries, so my hair splitting about 18th century marriage impediments is moot in terms of discussing gay marriage today.

Oh and by the way: it's great to see you back, Debra!



Hi Thomas.

Here's a link to Blackstone's Comentaries:

http://lonang.com/exlibris/blackstone/

Book 1, Rights of Persons, Chapter 15, Of Husband and Wife:

http://lonang.com/exlibris/blackstone/bla-115.htm

The "holiness" of a marriage was left solely to the determination of the church, but the civil law considered marriage as a civil contract. The requirements for entering a valid civil contract of marriage were: 1) the effective consent of the parties to contract, 2) the ability to contract (no disabilities/impediments), and 3) execution of the contract in accordance with the procedures required by law.

I have looked, but cannot find where old age would serve as an impediment to entering a valid civil contract of marriage.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 03:09 pm
Re: Lawyers Argue Legal Status of Gay Unions
Debra Law wrote:
The "holiness" of a marriage was left solely to the determination of the church, but the civil law considered marriage as a civil contract. The requirements for entering a valid civil contract of marriage were: 1) the effective consent of the parties to contract, 2) the ability to contract (no disabilities/impediments), and 3) execution of the contract in accordance with the procedures required by law.

Yes, but canon law gets to define some of the disabilities and impediments under 2).

Quote:
NOW these disabilities are of two sorts: first, such as are canonical, and therefore sufficient by the ecclesiastical laws to avoid the marriage in the spiritual court; but these in our law only make the marriage voidable, and not ipso facto void, until sentence of nullity be obtained. Of this nature are pre-contract; consanguinity, or relation by blood; and affinity, or relation by marriage; and some particular corporal infirmities.


Debra_Law wrote:
I have looked, but cannot find where old age would serve as an impediment to entering a valid civil contract of marriage.

As I remember it from the last time I had a similar discussion, what Blackstone delicately describes as "some particular corporal infirmities" included obvious infertility, of which old age in a woman would have been one clear indicator. The source in this earlier discussion was a citation from a legal history textbook covering English family law. It was a sufficiently recent enough book that its copyright wouldn't have expired, so it probably wouldn't be available online. And I'm afraid that asking around for the citation and running an Amazon book search for the excerpt requires more effort than I'm willing to invest in this thread.

I realize this is getting embarrassingly close to saying "the dog ate my homework". Maybe I better surrender.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 03:15 pm
Well, i didn't get back soon enough to promptly respond to your response to me, but i see that Joe took care of the light work, and with a much better response than mine would have been.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Sep, 2007 09:58 am
bookmark
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 10:41 am
Yesterday, I drove from Oregon to the Canadian border and then returned. That was about 12 hours of driving and to pass the time, I decided to listen to right wing am radio...a bit of Praeger and a lot of Rush Limbaugh.

Rush, predictably, spent a LOT of time talking about the Columbia appearance and speech of the Iranian president. One aspect of the speech Rush focused on was the President's denial of homosexuality in Iran and also on how homosexuals are actually treated. Such treatment of a minority by the Iranian regisme is, to Rush's mind, indefensible.

Of course, Rush wasn't alone in pointing to these statements. Concomitant, of course, is the "why aren't liberals yelling about this?". A liberal hypocrisy thing, if you haven't got the drift already.

Of course, there is this...


2006 STATE REPUBLICAN PARTY PLATFORM
Quote:
Homosexuality - We believe that the practice of sodomy tears at the fabric of society, contributes to the breakdown of the family unit, and leads to the spread of dangerous, communicable diseases. Homosexual behavior is contrary to the fundamental, unchanging truths that have been ordained by God, recognized by our country's founders, and shared by the majority of Texans. Homosexuality must not be presented as an acceptable "alternative" lifestyle in our public education and policy, nor should "family" be redefined to include homosexual "couples." We are opposed to any granting of special legal entitlements, recognition, or privileges including, but not limited to, marriage between persons of the same sex, custody of children by homosexuals, homosexual partner insurance or retirement benefits. We oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values.

Texas Sodomy Statutes - We oppose the legalization of sodomy. We demand that Congress exercise its authority granted by the U.S. Constitution to withhold jurisdiction from the federal courts from cases involving sodomy.
http://www.texasgop.org/site/DocServer/Platform_Updated.pdf?docID=2001
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 11:48 pm
blatham wrote:
Yesterday, I drove from Oregon to the Canadian border and then returned. That was about 12 hours of driving and to pass the time, I decided to listen to right wing am radio...a bit of Praeger and a lot of Rush Limbaugh.

Rush, predictably, spent a LOT of time talking about the Columbia appearance and speech of the Iranian president. One aspect of the speech Rush focused on was the President's denial of homosexuality in Iran and also on how homosexuals are actually treated. Such treatment of a minority by the Iranian regisme is, to Rush's mind, indefensible.

Of course, Rush wasn't alone in pointing to these statements. Concomitant, of course, is the "why aren't liberals yelling about this?". A liberal hypocrisy thing, if you haven't got the drift already.

Of course, there is this...


2006 STATE REPUBLICAN PARTY PLATFORM
Quote:
Homosexuality - We believe that the practice of sodomy tears at the fabric of society, contributes to the breakdown of the family unit, and leads to the spread of dangerous, communicable diseases. Homosexual behavior is contrary to the fundamental, unchanging truths that have been ordained by God, recognized by our country's founders, and shared by the majority of Texans. Homosexuality must not be presented as an acceptable "alternative" lifestyle in our public education and policy, nor should "family" be redefined to include homosexual "couples." We are opposed to any granting of special legal entitlements, recognition, or privileges including, but not limited to, marriage between persons of the same sex, custody of children by homosexuals, homosexual partner insurance or retirement benefits. We oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values.

Texas Sodomy Statutes - We oppose the legalization of sodomy. We demand that Congress exercise its authority granted by the U.S. Constitution to withhold jurisdiction from the federal courts from cases involving sodomy.
http://www.texasgop.org/site/DocServer/Platform_Updated.pdf?docID=2001


How does this (The Republican Platform) obviate the need for Liberals to cry out against the Iranian regime?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Sep, 2007 12:24 am
Which liberals are you referring to, finn? Why not do a poll here on a2k of the members who consider themselves liberals and ask what they think about a theocratic/political regime which ostracizes and demonizes homosexuals, denies homosexuals equality under the law, criminalizes homosexual acts, and punishes such with incarceration, whippings and even execution.

You could inquire as to what they think about these things in Iran and what they think about these same things, where applicable, in the Texas Republican Party Platform?

Please poll.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Sep, 2007 12:45 am
blatham wrote:
Which liberals are you referring to, finn? Why not do a poll here on a2k of the members who consider themselves liberals and ask what they think about a theocratic/political regime which ostracizes and demonizes homosexuals, denies homosexuals equality under the law, criminalizes homosexual acts, and punishes such with incarceration, whippings and even execution.

You could inquire as to what they think about these things in Iran and what they think about these same things, where applicable, in the Texas Republican Party Platform?

Please poll.


Any and all.

I need no A2K poll to know that Liberals are not crying out for the overthrow of the Iranian regime.

Are you suggesting that they are?

How should the poll be worded?

Do you think that homophobic Iranians are bad people?

Yeah, the results of that poll will surprise us.

What are Liberals prepared to support to help Iranian homosexuals (not to mention Iranian women, students, intellectuals and [oh yes] liberals).

Sound and fury...sound and fury.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Sep, 2007 01:54 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
What are Liberals prepared to support to help Iranian homosexuals (not to mention Iranian women, students, intellectuals and [oh yes] liberals).

Sound and fury...sound and fury.


You could join the meeting at the Vienna university today, by Café Critique and Scholars for Peace in the Middle East/Austria, or go to the [alternative] harvest festival ("Thanksgiving") in our county town's [former] 'slaughter house', join any of the numerous help associatons ... ... ...
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Sep, 2007 08:09 am
finn
Quote:
I need no A2K poll to know that Liberals are not crying out for the overthrow of the Iranian regime.

Have you cried out here for the overthrow of the Myanmar regime? Are you pressing your congressman to forward overthrow of the Ethiopian regime? Have you considered joining the National Guard to put your shoulder to the wheel in overthrowing those many governments of nations not american of which you disapprove? Are you submitting some sum greater than your tax return demands to cover the costs of these noble and godly american military adventures?

And, as our fundamental subject here is consistency or its converse, hypocrisy, are you going to be teaching your children and grandchildren that when American power wanes in relation to other arising powers such as China, that it will be quite OK for China to proceed to launch military adventures abroad designed to overthrow governments with which their values and philosophies do not correspond? A thumbs up or thumbs down vote here seems in order.

Have you written a letter to the Texas Republicans politely asking them to remove their platform positions on homosexuality pointing out that they are indeed identical to the position of the Iranian government other than in severity of punishment? It is the state in which you live and the party which you support, after all. The common sense understanding of moral duty has it that we are most acutely responsible for endeavors or associations in which we are personally involved and which we can have some chance of actually effecting. Have you written a letter or phoned in to Rush's show asking him to be consistent (not a hypocrite) re the fundamental rights of homosexuals in the USA as well as Iran, per the Bill of Rights?

I will call the Iranian embassy and express my sincere disgust with their treatment of homosexuals. Will you call the Texas Republican party headquarters, or Rush Limbaugh, and do the same, finn?
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Sep, 2007 08:17 am
Blatham
Blatham, you earned this to honor your wisdom:

http://www.awards-trophies-supplier.co.uk/images/achievement-award-62110MG.jpg
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

New York New York! - Discussion by jcboy
Prop 8? - Discussion by majikal
Gay Marriage - Discussion by blatham
Gay Marriage -- An Old Post Revisited - Discussion by pavarasra
Who doesn't back gay marriage? - Question by The Pentacle Queen
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.34 seconds on 11/25/2024 at 10:24:18