Socialism, Should we give it another try?

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good post, i agree

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'The class war is over', declared Tony Blair at a Labour's conference some time ago [can't find the source for that]. 'The 21st century will not be about the battle between capitalism and socialism, but between the forces of progress and the forces of conservatism'.

I've attended a couple of Labour meetings, know some leading Labour members personally (from council/county councellars over MP up to a minister in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

I've noticed that the difference between the basis (= 'normal' members up to councillers) and those "on the top" is much greater than e.g. in Germany.

Generally, I do think (and belive from own eyewitness and listening) that of all (central) European Socialist parties the Scandinavian are the most 'socialistic' ones, closely followed by the British.
The Germans don't really know, where they stand (quite similar to the British), and the French are conservatives with a different prefix.

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nimh wrote:

Einherjar wrote:
I tend to want to lable people and movements what they lable themselves.

So do I. That was my point. Yes, "The adherents of communism had this term clearly defined", in their theoretic handbooks, as the future end result/goal of the development of a socialist society of their brand. However, that did not stop them from founding parties across Europe called "Communist Party" - not, mostly, "Socialist Party". Note that the ruling party in the Soviet Union was, yes, the "Communist Party of the Soviet Union" (KPSS).

Communists are those who called themselves communists, sure, "I would tend to stick with that", too. Throughout most of Europe and most of the twentieth century, that has meant that "communists" - ie, those who organised in and voted for Communist parties - were those who were loyal to the Soviet Union and the Soviet model. Whereas most Socialist parties across free Europe did *not* profess any loyalty to or even affinity with the Soviet model.

Then I shall adopt that terminology when conversing with you.

I probably won't pick up the gauntlet if someone insists on a different definition though, I tend to be more entusiastic about ideas than lables.

Quote:

Einherjar wrote:
Arguments over definitions are useless, and I will adapt to whichever terminology is preffered by those with whom I am discussing.

And as someone from a socialist family and with strong socialist affinities, I will continue to speak up against anyone who equates socialism with communism, or who defines socialism as the system practiced in the Soviet Union.

You go right ahead.

And by the way, I'm something of a socialist myself. (by nimhs definition)

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georgeob1 wrote:

We differ on the most fundamental level.

I value freedom much more highly than the merits of (forcibly) removing the homeless from the streets to government subsidized basic housing in poor neighborhoods.

Where in the world did "(forcibly)" come from?

georgeob1 wrote:

I doubt your ability (or anyone else's either) to plan and operate a system of subsidies and incentives, such as you describe, that will truly achieve its intended purpose without being corrupted by the excessive power given to those who operate it. History reveals numerous examples of this and, more importantly, no counterexamples.

I didn't know a system similar to what I envision had ever been implemented. The system I envision would be very simple, and I think it should work. Anyway, I think a similar effect can be accomplished by keeping collectively owned capital in banks.

georgeob1 wrote:

I know of no successful application of an economic system based in public ownership of capital, anywhere in the world, at any time in history. Ultimately force and coercion are required to make the system work even at a low level. Freedom and private ownership and enterprise have beaten command economies and tyranny in every encounter.

I know of no attemts to create a market economy based on collectively owned capital, do you?

georgeob1 wrote:

The measures you propose for education would make the state the effective parent of all children. This is not particularly new. Sparta tried it and Plato advocated it. Neither was the highest achievement of classical Greece. Mankind is not perfectible. Those who undertake to try this end up as tyrants.

What meassures did I propose again, let me see. Oh, a well funded public school without vouchers. And the problem is?

I propose nothing like the spartan system.

georgeob1 wrote:

The contrast between the social theories of the Soviets and the ghastly actions they took to put and keep their dysfunctional system in place was so stark, that I think no reasonable person could advocate repeating it. Even in the earliest days Lenin was blithely willing to proceed with the , "Elimination of the irreconcilables",.as he termed the murder of those who resisted or wouldn't go along.

I have never advocated dictatorship and political repression, which seems to be what you are attacking here.

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Einherjar wrote:

Where in the world did "(forcibly)" come from?

George won't like it:

from Middle French, force + -ible :wink:

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

What always puzzles me in these days is that certain US-Americans have such a high opinion about e.g. Tony Blair and such a low of e.g. Gerhard Schröder:

Tony Blair is the leader of the major democratic socialist party in Britain since the early 20th century.

A propos of this: if any of you with some prior ties/affinities/interest in the twentieth century's socialist and communist intrigues is in for a laff, then please do read this article:

Who are you calling an old Trot?

It's funny. What happened, apparently, is that firebrand leftie The Independent journalist Robert Fisk rhetorically called Jack Straw, the now-tough-line New Labour Foreign Secretary (who made his name adopting the harshest rhetorics on crime any Labour politician ever engaged in and now fiercely defends Blair's pro-US, pro-Iraq war position), "that old Trot".

Ouch. Jack Straw, let it be known, was not ever a Trotskyite, as he immediately and empassionately wrote in a letter to The Independent editors. In fact, he "was first taught to spot a Trot at 50 yards" as a 19-year-old lad in 1965 "by Mr. Bert Ramelson, Yorkshire industrial organiser of the Communist Party". Ah yes, Bert Ramelson - the most influential communist in Britain - not a Trotskyite, indeed, but rather an unrepentant Stalinist, "whose faith survived even the discovery in 1956 that his sister had spent 20 years in a Soviet Labour camp". And Jack Straw's mentor in vigilance against Trotskyite deviances, apparently.

In what, it seems, became a whole correspondence between Straw and The Independent correspondents, Straw proceeded to entertainingly revive all the anachonistic formulas of that bitter inter-Communist feud of back then, once again lambasting Trotskyites for "revanchism, false consciousness, and objectively counter-revolutionary tendencies." Just so you know. He quoted Lenin about it and all - "fortunately, the Foreign Office library still has Lenin's complete works ..."

Titillated, The Independent quickly takes the opportunity to do a little mapping of Blair's New Labour stalwarts, those pioneers of the reformist Third Way ideology that was to leave all continental socialdemocratic parties looking like they were stuck in Chernenko's Politburo.

Just so you know: Gordon Brown, perennial "crown prince" of New Labour? Former Trotskyite. Peter Mandelson, European Commissioner? Former Communist, led a delegation to Cuba. John Reid, Secratary of State for Health? Former Communist. David Blunkett, Home Secretary? Former leader of the Sheffield City Council when it was known as "the socialist republic of South Yorkshire". Charles Clarke, Secretary of State for Education? Former President of Communist-steered student organisation. Alan Milburn, Labour's election planner? In Trotskyite days, manager of a socialist bookstore. Margaret Hodge, Minister for Children? "Former leader of Islington Council where she had a bust of Lenin installed in the town hall."

Dennis MacShane, minister for Europe, Paul Boateng, Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Trevor Phillips, CRE chairman, Alan Johnson, Work and Pensions Secretary - all once part of what The Independent, tongue-in-cheek, dubs the "Stalinist wing" and the "Trotskyite wing". Hell, the New Labour Cabinet probably has more former Communists than the Yanukovich election campaign ... Razz

But - it seems they all get along perfectly fine when they now gather around the Cabinet table to devise yet another way to break down the welfare state ;-)

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Just to be annoying, i thought i'd point out that the Etruscans (more properly known as Tuscans) lived in Etruria . . . just to be annoying . . . maybe it's my Hernican ancestors . . .

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Many of you that are against communism and regurgetate facts thrown at you from conservative americain press have no idea of what you talk of. Have you ever been to Cuba... for most of you the answer will be no, and why is that , it is because the supposed land of the free has placed an embargo on cuba and forced a halt of all flights to cuba leaving all those with the will to vistit no possible way. I've been to Cuba and some other "third world countries" and what I saw in Cuba was far better that the dominican where people live in boxes. Everyone in cuba has a place to live and rations to maintain a healthy life style. Those who criticize with no real knowledge should stop talking.

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nimh wrote:

GeneralTsao wrote:
And I tend to define "successful" as allowing all citizens freedom to rise to any [..] financial level they so choose, un- or minimally-impeded by their own government.

Heh.

Thats kinda like defining a "successful" capitalist government as one that accords each citizen the state-provided guarantee of work, a living wage and decent working conditions ...

GeneralTsao wrote:
I would also like case histories of which great inventions came about (or were made practical or efficient) under socialist regimes. For instance, vacuum cleaners, automobiles, airplanes, the microchip and computers, ..

Well, if we're going to fall into the trap of talking about the communist Soviet states when the topic was socialism, then this would be the one score where apologists of those states would have something to come up with ... I mean, they were the first in space (Sputnik, Laika) and all that ...

Correction, the Germans were the first in space, sent a V2 up there.

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hornetguy wrote:

Correction, the Germans were the first in space, sent a V2 up there.

I'm quite sure nobody fitted a german in that V2.

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Perhaps James would like to live in the Cuban Socialist paradise. (He might even find someone to improve his English grammar.) Castro will die soon. There will be a struggle for power among brother and deputies, but the rotten regime will quickly fall. A flood of Cuban émigrés will return from Florida seeking lost property and new economic opportunity. However the Cuban people, thoroughly enervated by a generation of totalitarian socialism, will sit back, watch, and wait for their share - of very little indeed. Cuba will again become the pawn of her own criminal class and an adult playground for foreigners.

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Quote:

The contrast between the social theories of the Soviets and the ghastly actions they took to put and keep their dysfunctional system in place was so stark, that I think no reasonable person could advocate repeating it. Even in the earliest days Lenin was blithely willing to proceed with the , "Elimination of the irreconcilables",.as he termed the murder of those who resisted or wouldn't go along.

The phrase "Elimination of the irreconcilables" caught my attention and reminded me of this story, which could, I suppose, be entitled "Elimination of the helpless".

Quote:

Netherlands Hospital Euthanizes Babies

Source

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Personally I think, that if a person is terminally ill, and has no ability to choose whether he wants to live or die, and there is no family member objecting in anyway, that euthanization is fine. Why make the person suffer, especially if the have free will and ask to be killed in a painless way so that suffering may end.

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I don't really understand, what euthanasia has to do with socialism, ignorant that I am.

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Walter - absolutely nothing, except that when I first read this story, the country in which it's happening jumped out at me.

A Socialist country that is totally against the death penalty (or so I've heard), the Dutch think Americans are inhumane in putting convicted criminals to death.

Allowing euthanasia for babies, the retarded and the elderly is ok, though.

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JustWonders wrote:

A Socialist country that is totally against the death penalty (or so I've heard), the Dutch think Americans are inhumane in putting convicted criminals to death.

Allowing euthanasia for babies, the retarded and the elderly is ok, though.

Obviously, JustWonder, you don't follow what is called "International News"/"International Politics":

Quote:

head of government: Prime Minister Jan Peter BALKENENDE (since 22 July 2002) and Deputy Prime Ministers Gerrit ZALM (since 27 May 2003) and Thom DE GRAAF (since 27 May 2003)
[...]
elections: First Chamber - last held 25 May 2003 (next to be held NA May 2007); Second Chamber - last held 22 January 2003 (next to be held NA January 2007)
election results: First Chamber - percent of vote by party - NA; seats by party - CDA 23, PvdA 19, VVD 15, Green Party 5, Socialist Party 4, D66 3, other 6; Second Chamber - percent of vote by party - CDA 28.6%, PvdA 27.3%, VVD 12.9%, Socialist Party 6.3%, List Pim Fortuyn 5.7%, Green Party 5.1%, D66 4.1%; seats by party - CDA 44, PvdA 42, VVD 28, Socialist Party 9, List Pim Fortuyn 8, Green Party 8, D66 6, other 5
[...]
Political parties and leaders:
Christian Democratic Appeal or CDA [Maxime Jacques Marcel VERHAGEN]; Christian Union Party [Andre ROUVOET]; Democrats 66 or D66 [Boris DITTRICH]; Green Party [Femke HALSEMA]; Labor Party or PvdA [Wouter BOS]; List Pim Fortuyn [Mat HERBEN]; People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (Liberal) or VVD [Jozias VAN AARTSEN]; Socialist Party [Jan MARIJNISSEN]; a host of minor parties

from the CIA World Factbook

JustWonders wrote:

A Socialist country that is totally against the death penalty (or so I've heard), the Dutch think Americans are inhumane in putting convicted criminals to death.

Could you name one (European) conservative country, which is pro-death penalty?

JustWonders wrote:

I taught 5th grade last year and the year before. They rocked my world.

(on another thread)

I sincerely hope, not 'Politics' or similar!

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Killing people who have the ability to live (criminals given death penalty) and people who are suffering or in the case of babies who will live a life of suffering, if the parents agree that they would rather kill their child now then put it through a lfie of suffering, why not let them do that. It should be their choice.

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Until what age would you have this right of parents to kill their offspring continue? At what point do you believe the state should consider or attempt to defend the survival interest of the child?

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I would say within 6 months after birth, set a definite limit, if they know for sure its borne with a horrible defections or is terminally ill babies. My view is just try and prevent suffering, and if an adult who is suffering wants to do kill theirself with medical assistance, i dont think its the states decision.

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Socialism, Should we give it another try?

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