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Tue 9 Nov, 2004 11:00 am
While doing a study on comparative religions, I came across a fascinating number of similarities, or "archetypes", between religions. What are some of the similarities you have found, and what do you think it means?
**Disclaimer: This isn't a 'which is right' discussion, merely an examination of the commonalities between disparate religions.
Oh my. Lots.
Almost all cultures have a flood myth of some sort. (The Noah archetype.)
There are a whole lot of cultures in which the sun has some sort of deity-ness. (Is so a word.)
I think some of the similarities come out of the commonality of human experience, and the human need to explain. All humans are faced with certain common experiences -- sun, moon, stars, rain, birth, death -- and I think their attempts to explain and understand these phenomena naturally overlap.
I'll explain it from my Islamic view:
In the Qur'an we are told that God sent a messenger to every nation on earth:
and there is not a nation but a messenger hath passed among them [35:24]
So every nation since Adam till Muhammad had its message and God commands. We are told that the basic message which was given to each of these nations was the same: "Worship God alone and worship none else." Some of the secondary details of this worship might differ from one tribe or nation to the next according to God's infinite wisdom and his knowledge of those people.
But those nations always managed to corrupt their holy message and mixed their fairy tales with the true words of God. However, some tiny fragments of the true words of God remain in every message. That's why you may find a fragment of a story in the Avesta for example that are found in the Bible or the Qur'an. Those similarities are not myths, but what remained from the original message.
And Noah flood is not a myth, at least no one can prove it's a myth. If it was mentioned in older traditions, that's because it's a part of the tiny inspired remained fragments.
Both attempt to answer questions which seem to defy answers.
Both contain elements of guesses about the answers to those questions.
And both often present those guesses...as answers.
I think "religions" are merely mythologies that have not yet been generally accepted as mythologies.
That's my view as well, Frank, but my main goal was to see what commonalities others have found in religions/mythologies, and compare them to my own. So, in essence, I'm trying to be selfish. :wink:
Cyanure: I'll take a page out of Franks' book and say Nobody can prove that Noah's Ark
wasn't a myth.
But in all seriousness, that story in and of itself is illogical, what with the "2 of every species", etc., but I'm not even going to get into that, since that's not the goal of this thread. (Not trying to be rude, just trying to stay on-topic) What are some of the "fragments" you've found.
Anyway, your story about the "messengers" was interesting, I hadn't heard that before. But that doesn't really explain polytheism or religions that are completely different from Judaism/Christianity.
**Disclaimer to all: My goal here is to accumulate a fair amount of examples, and then delve into people's theories about the "why?" So please, hold on to those theories until at least page 2 or 3. Thanks.
Noah is not an archetype. Gilgamesh is, the Gilgamesh flood story is dated to be at least a 250 years older.
People who exist in the same types of situations are likely to do some of the same things. Like worshiping the sun or the moon, or animals that are dangerous and powerful. South America - Egypt. It is i believe merely coincedence that ancient cultures across the globe from eachother have similar gods and similar practices.
Etruscia wrote:Noah is not an archetype. Gilgamesh is, the Gilgamesh flood story is dated to be at least a 250 years older.
People who exist in the same types of situations are likely to do some of the same things. Like worshiping the sun or the moon, or animals that are dangerous and powerful. South America - Egypt. It is i believe merely coincedence that ancient cultures across the globe from eachother have similar gods and similar practices.
Excellent post, Etruscia.
Interesting point, Etruscia. I had never thought of it quite like that. All these occurences (eclipse, lightning, fire, rain, etc.) are just not comprehended by early humans, and regarded as 'magic' or somesuch. This bring up an interesting point: Is it an instinct, then, to worship something "higher" than ourselves?
Well think about it, if you live in a stone age society, and an earthquake happens, how do you explain it. You think "I definitely didnt make the earth shake, everybody i asked said they didnt, well then who did. Since i cant do it, someone much more powerful than me must have done it" Since the sun is brilliant, the moon is huge, and the jaguar fast, stealthy and a threat to lively hood, i believe that whoever is making the earth shake possesses these qualities"
to think that this style of thinking is strictly going to happen in one area doesnt make sense, if two people are given the same situation, with the same knowledge and same resources it can be expected that more often than not they will do the same thing.
Interesting...but that doesn't explain the tendency towards deification. even cavemen had some rudimentary science, even if that was limited to basic correlations(Put hand on fire, hand turns to crisp...fire bad!)
I think the anthropomorphication of elements, etc. stems from a desire for safety, vis-a-vis "some being watching over us." BUT...is this need instinctual, or coincidental? I have a slight mistrust of coincidences, so I would lean towards instinct.
Back to the original point: I've found "Son of God who dies and returns again" in many religions, I've found triple-goddesses out the khyber, I've found three primordial beings everywhere, and the king of the gods is almost always a god of the heavens. Am I missing any?
You should of made instinct a poll option because it just explains the apparent coincidences. Instinct explains the majorities desire to have a god, while coincidence is the reason why the gods are similar.
Recap:
Having a god, instinct.
Having similar gods, or ideas about gods most likely coincedence.
Hmmm...I don't know, Etruscia, these "coincidences" seem a bit too universal to be coincidences to me...Some of them, yes, but others are just too weird, i.e. my triple goddess example. How would you explain that with your theory?
Taliesin181 wrote:Hmmm...I don't know, Etruscia, these "coincidences" seem a bit too universal to be coincidences to me...
But, Tal, that is the way it is with "coincidence."
Quote:Some of them, yes, but others are just too weird, i.e. my triple goddess example. How would you explain that with your theory?
Do the "triple goddesses" thing again, Tal.
Tell us exactly what you have found...and why you think it unlikely that it is a coincidence.
My favorite book and video about comparative mythologies is Joseph Campbell's, The Power of Myth." The video shown over and over again on PBS stations during pledge drives is actually a dialogue between Campbell and Bill Moyers. The book is editted from the video. This book is so good that I read it once a year and watch the video too, and learn something new everytime.
Why shouldn't myths from different religions be similar? They all address the same problems and experiences common to consciousness. You'll find that mystical experiences in disparate religions to be very similar, but the interpretations are different. Of course from inside any particualr religion, the myth stories are usually taken literally, especially by the more conservative, patriarchal, and fundamental sects, and they even take umbrage to the word "myth," thinking that it means fiction or falsehood. However, by studying myths, one can find commonalities in all religions, and we are able to realize that they pertain to inner human experiences.
coluber: I'm actually reading "Hero With a Thousand Faces" right now...freaky.
frank: I don't have the list in front of me, so I'll post it later in the day, when I do.
Okay, here's the list, frank:
Greek Mythology:
The Fates(Morae): 3 Goddesses born out of the chaos before the gods, who determine the path of everyone's life.
The Furies(Erinyes, Eumenides): 3 avenging goddesses born out of Ouranos' testicles after Cronus cut them off. Their job was to avenge blood debts and torment sinners.
The Graces: Aphrodite's 3 Attendants, who represented all that was beautiful and pure in the world.
The Gorgons: 3 monsters who guarded the entrance to the underworld, and whose gaze turned men to stone. Only Medusa was mortal.
The Graie: 3 wise women who aided(under pressure) Perseus on his quest to kill Medusa. they shared one tooth and eye between them all.
The Hesperides: 3 "golden Ones" who guard the Apples of Hesperides, given to Hera by Rhea.
The Muses: Originally 3: Melete, Mneme, Aoede--meditation, memory, and singing. later "gave birth" to the 9 Muses of popular myth.
Trioditis: 3 Symbolic rulers of heaven(Selene), earth(Diana), and the underworld(Hecate). They also governed forks in roads where there were three choices.
Celtic Myth:
The Morrigan: triple-aspect war Goddess, known individually as Nemhan, Babd, and Macha.
Arthurian legend: The 3 Queens on Arthurs boat as he lay dying mirror the archetypal Mother Goddess(Maiden, Mother, and Crone)
Egyptian myth: The Mut: Ma'at, Hathor, and Nekhbet, who represented matriarchal, pre-civilization, mother/goddess worship.
**really interesting**
Hebrew/Christian Myth:
The Holy Trinity(Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
Adam's 3 wives: Contrary to popular belief, Adam had 3 wives: Lillith, who was Adam's equal, and was forced to leave for her pride, causing her to couple with Demons; the unnamed Virgin, whom God created out of nothingness, and Adam saw "full of secretions and blood" and could not bring himself to touch her, so she was unmade; and eve, who was blamed for the fall from eden.
The 3 Angels sent to curb Lillith's mating in the desert outside Eden.
the 3 days it took Jesus to "rise again."
While the last few weren't technically triple Goddesses, I felt compelled to throw them in as well. There are also at least 12 other examples of the "3" archetype, though not goddesses, which I'll type if you guys would like to see. The reason I find this all so compelling is, primarily, their widespread occurence in literature(Aristotle's 3 unities/3 Elements of tragedy, Freud's 3 components of the Psyche, Shakespeare's liberal use of the 3 "weird sisters" in his plays, etc.) pop culture (Charmed, the Matrix, Buffy, etc.) and everyday life( it requires 3 notes to make a chord, 3 occurences to make a pattern, ad infinitum.) While I can appreciate (and I even agreed, once upon a time) with your point about coincidences, Frank, there's a point after which I couldn't just say "Oh, that's just a coincidence." Admittedly, I could be wrong about these patterns, and they could, in fact, be caused by etruscia's "similar stimulus; similar reaction" argument, but I find it unlikely, and se it as extremely compelling evidence for the collective unconscious.
Sorry about the obscene size of this post, but it was necessary. remember: If you guys want to see the other, non-goddess examples, let me know.
oops, forgot to answer frank's last question: the reason I find it unlikely to be a coincidence Frank, is the sheer number of the occurences. In fact, as I mentioned, 2-3 events: coincidence. 3 or more: a pattern. Again, I could be mistaking the cause, but I think there's strong evidence to support my theory...though, doesn't everybody? :wink:
I find it hard to know what your trying to Prove Taliesin. That all these cultures have their bases in a proto-culture with a "3" arche-type? *Possible Atlantis Theory*
My thought is that there is enough evidence to support a "1" archetype, a "2" archetype and such through ten. Because certain things come in threes in those cultures does not mean much, because there are other things that come in 2s in 1s, 4s, 6s, and so on.
1.
One god
One home
One wife/husband
One love
Two
Day and Night
Heaven and Hell
Sun and the Moon
Two sides to an argument
Two opposing teams
Taliesin181 wrote:Okay, here's the list, frank:
Greek Mythology:
The Fates(Morae): 3 Goddesses born out of the chaos before the gods, who determine the path of everyone's life.
The Furies(Erinyes, Eumenides): 3 avenging goddesses born out of Ouranos' testicles after Cronus cut them off. Their job was to avenge blood debts and torment sinners.
The Graces: Aphrodite's 3 Attendants, who represented all that was beautiful and pure in the world.
The Gorgons: 3 monsters who guarded the entrance to the underworld, and whose gaze turned men to stone. Only Medusa was mortal.
The Graie: 3 wise women who aided(under pressure) Perseus on his quest to kill Medusa. they shared one tooth and eye between them all.
The Hesperides: 3 "golden Ones" who guard the Apples of Hesperides, given to Hera by Rhea.
The Muses: Originally 3: Melete, Mneme, Aoede--meditation, memory, and singing. later "gave birth" to the 9 Muses of popular myth.
Trioditis: 3 Symbolic rulers of heaven(Selene), earth(Diana), and the underworld(Hecate). They also governed forks in roads where there were three choices.
I think I may be seeing why you are not able to see this stuff as "as likely to be coincidence as not."
You are probably counting this "list" as 8 separate items...which already creates an argument against coinsidence.
But a reasonable argument can be made that they are but 1...various, instances of a culture (Hellenic) paying homage to Number 3 for one reason or another.
Quote:Celtic Myth:
The Morrigan: triple-aspect war Goddess, known individually as Nemhan, Babd, and Macha.
Arthurian legend: The 3 Queens on Arthurs boat as he lay dying mirror the archetypal Mother Goddess(Maiden, Mother, and Crone)
Egyptian myth: The Mut: Ma'at, Hathor, and Nekhbet, who represented matriarchal, pre-civilization, mother/goddess worship.
And we knock three times on the ceiling...and "count to three" before heaving.
Absolutely no argument that I can see which would make it any less reasonable to assume coincidence over something more "spiritual" or "mytic."
Honestly!
Quote:**really interesting**
Hebrew/Christian Myth:
The Holy Trinity(Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
Adam's 3 wives: Contrary to popular belief, Adam had 3 wives: Lillith, who was Adam's equal, and was forced to leave for her pride, causing her to couple with Demons; the unnamed Virgin, whom God created out of nothingness, and Adam saw "full of secretions and blood" and could not bring himself to touch her, so she was unmade; and eve, who was blamed for the fall from eden.
The 3 Angels sent to curb Lillith's mating in the desert outside Eden.
the 3 days it took Jesus to "rise again."
While the last few weren't technically triple Goddesses, I felt compelled to throw them in as well. There are also at least 12 other examples of the "3" archetype, though not goddesses, which I'll type if you guys would like to see. The reason I find this all so compelling is, primarily, their widespread occurence in literature(Aristotle's 3 unities/3 Elements of tragedy, Freud's 3 components of the Psyche, Shakespeare's liberal use of the 3 "weird sisters" in his plays, etc.) pop culture (Charmed, the Matrix, Buffy, etc.) and everyday life( it requires 3 notes to make a chord, 3 occurences to make a pattern, ad infinitum.) While I can appreciate (and I even agreed, once upon a time) with your point about coincidences, Frank, there's a point after which I couldn't just say "Oh, that's just a coincidence." Admittedly, I could be wrong about these patterns, and they could, in fact, be caused by etruscia's "similar stimulus; similar reaction" argument, but I find it unlikely, and se it as extremely compelling evidence for the collective unconscious.
Sorry about the obscene size of this post, but it was necessary. remember: If you guys want to see the other, non-goddess examples, let me know.
No problem with the size of the post....I am assured that size is not important.
But I suspect there is a case being "manufactured" here.
I wish I had the smarts of my youth. I'd give a more compelling rendition of the argument. But I don't...and I can't.
I can only tell you that I see this more likely to be coincidence...than I do "indicitive of some greater purpose or reality."
In the study of comparative religion, you may find Frazier's The Golden Bough of some interest. Though somewhat dated, this is still a very important sourcebook in comparative religion.
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