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@Leadfoot,

Please answer where did the complexity of God came from, and if it is a brut fact, why cant we apply the same principle to the Cosmos as a whole!

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For other readers interested in the problem and an honest take, here is the classical rebut from religious sources which I raised to Leadfoot!
A God outside spacetime...he remarked he was not referring to the classical concept of God, which I also covered, if God is within spacetime what is the chain of cause and effect that explains where the complexity of God come from?

To clarify on this technical aspect either:

A - God is outside time and is a brut fact. The same argument has been made in Science since Einstein, check Block Universe for reference.

B - God is within spacetime, in which case you must explain where the complexity of God come from exactly as you would have to do regarding the classical notion of cause and effect placed in a linear form.

Worse if you drop a classic concept of cause and effect where does that leave the concept of Free Will and volition?

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@Albuquerque,

Quote:

So what am I suppose to counter when you do refuse to clarify the terms?

I thought it was clear that the subject was: Is there a God or isn’t there a God, and what is the evidence etc..

I see now that you wanted to compare our poetic visions of God.

In almost seventy years of talking with him, I have developed what I think is a good sense of his character, but I can’t imagine anyone being interested.

But yeah, different subject.

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@Albuquerque,

Quote:

Please answer where did the complexity of God came from, and if it is a brut fact, why cant we apply the same principle to the Cosmos as a whole!

Told you that already. IDK where God came from. I don’t know where the computer I’m using came from either, but I know it did not emerge from the dirt even though it is made of the same elements.

And yes, we can have the argument from the standpoint of cosmology rather than biology if you prefer, but it is no where near as rich in detail. You showed no familiarity with biology so far, how are you on physics/cosmology?

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@Leadfoot,

Man I don't want to fight with you I want to grasp where you are coming from whatever that place might be...whatever you have to say I am just asking you to be clear and honest about whatever you think makes sense.

Again I am not trying to win a debate...it is vain and stupid, not to mention that often those who win debates in the public eye are wrong. fallacy ad populum...

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@Leadfoot,

No I am sufficiently familiar with the endless debate regarding the complexity of proteins and even the smallest form of life...heck cells alone are a complete nightmarish complexity problem...

I didn't skip anything, I formally went way back to the structure of the argument which is the correct place to start before you get to the protein complexity debate.

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@Albuquerque,

Quote:

Man I don't want to fight with you I want to grasp where you are coming from whatever that place might be...whatever you have to say I am just asking you to be clear and honest about whatever you think makes sense.

I think where I am coming from is clear.
I think the evidence from any objective point of view is that we are the product of an intelligent designer. I have offered some evidence of that.

Not saying anything else for now, but if that isn’t clear, it probably never will be. Let me know if there were any unclear terms for you in there. (Like ultimism, etc Smile

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@Leadfoot,

If you cared to only check the first video I provided you would have seen "Ultimism" covered...yes, at least formally, it is a relatively new idea debated by theologians.

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@Albuquerque,

Quote:

the protein complexity debate.

It’s not the complexity debate st….

But glad you’re ok with biology.

How do you explain the protein problem? And do you recognize anything other than the complexity in the protein argument I gave? If not, I should work on explaining what the problem really is. It’s not absolute complexity, even though it is in fact mind bogglingly complex as evidenced by our still incomplete knowledge of it.

Start where ever you wish.

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@Leadfoot,

I started by the structure of the argument before I tackled the amount of complexity.

For the sake of argument lets grant the degree of complexity is big enough that a natural explanation as is provided right now is not satisfying for some group of people.

I granted you that from the get go...I skipped that, I made the argument bullet prof by addressing its formalism and applying it into the very concept of God own complexity.

From there it follows only 2 options either God is outside spacetime and is presented as a brut fact in which case Einstein block Universe provides the same top down approach...yes it is true only very recently scientists understood how advantageous was to them to go back to the block Universe, (I was thinking about it since the early 90's) and many now frankly are even dropping the idea the Big Bang was an actual beginning, check among many other competing hypothesis Roger Penrose Conformal Cyclic Cosmology...yeah very close to my fractals...
Or God has to be within spacetime in which case in the structure of the argument if follows from cause and effect you have to explain a far more complex Being which is God.

There is nothing else to the debate but this.
This is the CORE of the debate, not explaining ad nause the particulars of how much complexity there is within a protein. I had skipped that and still could defend structurally the point being made.

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Some more povs on the topic of God without taking any sides:

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@Albuquerque,

Albuquerque wrote:

I wont bother to look for any clarification and march on on all your posts. Please quote me a passage where you clarified what sort of God you were referring to, to me. I apologise in advance if I did not saw it!

I have posted that "my take" thing so many times, there is no way I can point out where and when I posted it to you. But you claim that I dodged your request for such an explanation...and there is absolutely no way I would do that. Wherever you supposed I dodged such a question...is where I gave the clarification...which I do every time I am asked.

If I did miss it for some reason, I will apologize in advance to you.

Please go to whatever you want next.

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@Frank Apisa,

Thank you for the courtesy of being kind and honest.
As I've told you I have no recollection of you ever clarifying that, perhaps we were in a to heated debate and that just skipped...I just don't have any recollection of such clarification...perhaps I missed something...

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@Albuquerque,

Albuquerque wrote:

Thank you for the courtesy of being kind and honest.
As I've told you I have no recollection of you ever clarifying that, perhaps we were in a to heated debate and that just skipped...I just don't have any recollection of such clarification...perhaps I missed something...

And I may have missed you asking for it. I thank your for engaging in a subject about which I have considerable interest and investment.

So...let's move on.

After the clarification, do you have a significant disagreement with my take on the issue..."my take" being the italicized position statement?

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@Frank Apisa,

I do. As I've explained my POV previously the concept of creation does not make sense, at least in the traditional definition of God when we put it under deep scrutiny.

Let me rush the argument to not make a 100 pages long thesis, and be succinct instead.

All attributes that exist in Reality must be possible.
All attributes that are possible cannot be outside of Gods knowledge/Being.
It follows that all attributes that God "brought into existence" in the Universe did already existed in him.
Thus God did not create anything that didn't á priori existed already in his Nature.

One might as well skip the mess and say straight away that God is Nature...if you prefer ultimate nature is fine by me.
No space for a personal God in there as such thing would be phenomenological and within Time and Space.

On this subject I like Spinoza's approach at least until I can find a better one...

PS - In sum I want to mean that you might doubt whatever you feel like it...my point is that if you presuppose the conditions I presented above the "Creator" makes no sense IMO. At best is a figure of speech.

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...oh one final point, very important to me, to fit the bill perfectly...there is no nothingness! The so callled greatest question of all time, "why is there something rather then Nothing?" is smoke and mirrors...a deficiency of proper languaging!

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@Albuquerque,

Albuquerque wrote:

I do. As I've explained my POV previously the concept of creation does not make sense, at least in the traditional definition of God when we put it under deep scrutiny.

Let me rush the argument to not make a 100 pages long thesis, and be succinct instead.

All attributes that exist in Reality must be possible.
All attributes that are possible cannot be outside of Gods knowledge/Being.
It follows that all attributes that God "brought into existence" in the Universe did already existed in him.
Thus God did not create anything that didn't á priori existed already in his Nature.

One might as well skip the mess and say straight away that God is Nature...if you prefer ultimate nature is fine by me.
No space for a personal God in there as such thing would be phenomenological and within Time and Space.

On this subject I like Spinoza's approach at least until I can find a better one...

PS - In sum I want to mean that you might doubt whatever you feel like it...my point is that if you presuppose the conditions I presented above the "Creator" makes no sense IMO. At best is a figure of speech.

Okay, A...I just do not buy what you posit. To me you are simply eliminating the possibility of both "creation" and a "creator"...and doing so arbitrarily.

I, rather, am positing that while there is no NEED for a creation or creator... it is possible there is both a creation and a creator. There is absolutely nothing that persuades me that it is impossible for it (the thing we humans call the universe) to be a creation. Nothing.

It is, logically, possible that what we humans call "the universe" IS a creation with a creator...and it is, logically, possible that what we humans call "the universe" is not a creation.

I do not know which it is.

I see nothing in your argument that causes me to suspect it is impossible for this thing to be a creation. In fact, the argument that it is impossible that what we call the universe is a creation is as self-serving as the argument that it has to be a creation, necessitating a creator...or it is structured such that it necessitates "intelligent design."

I am going to re-read your argument right now. If you have further elucidation, please offer it.

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@Frank Apisa,

No I have nothing else to ad. Thank you for your time and ear Frank,

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@Albuquerque,

Albuquerque wrote:

No I have nothing else to ad. Thank you for your time and ear Frank,

OK.

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@Albuquerque,

Quote:

From there it follows only 2 options either God is outside spacetime and is presented as a brut fact in which case Einstein block Universe provides the same top down approach...yes it is true only very recently scientists understood how advantageous was to them to go back to the block Universe, (I was thinking about it since the early 90's) and many now frankly are even dropping the idea the Big Bang was an actual beginning, check among many other competing hypothesis Roger Penrose Conformal Cyclic Cosmology...yeah very close to my fractals...

I am happy to have met someone whose run-on sentences are as bad as mine.

I am not at all familiar with this argument of whether God is inside or outside of the universe that you keep turning to. Is that a real thing? Must be some school of philosophy I am not familiar with.

But that would make no difference to the protein argument as it would not matter if the material universe was a constant given or a creation.

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