nimh wrote:Quote:Geert Wilders, King or Jester?
Leader of Freedom Party mocks the conventions of parliament for hour and a half
Maurice de Hond's polling agency, never too shy for a tendentious question or two, this week submitted some statements that respondents could agree or disagree with:
"Wilders may perhaps generalise too much, but in essence he's right"
41% Agree
52% Disagree
Agree votes by party vote in 2006:
95% -- Freedom Party
72% -- VVD
50% -- Christian Democrats
29% -- Socialist Party
20% -- Labour Party
17% -- Christian Union
3% -- Green Left
"People who support Wilders are scared and/or dumb"
37% Agree
56% Disagree
Agree votes by party vote in 2006:
2% -- Freedom Party
13% -- VVD
23% -- Christian Democrats
47% -- Socialist Party
58% -- Labour Party
74% -- Christian Union
77% -- Green Left
Forgive me for interrupting Radio Free Holland, but artists in fear of muslim extremists is not limited to the land of chocolate, cheese and tulips
Artist defiantly draws Prophet Mohammed
HOGANAS, Sweden (CNN) -- Swedish artist Lars Vilks says all he's doing is taking a stand in the name of artistic expression. But because of that stand, on this afternoon he's lying low -- on the ground, in fact -- looking for bombs under his car.
Al Qaeda has put a $100,000 price on his head and offered an extra $50,000 for anyone who murders him by slitting his throat after the eccentric artist and sculptor drew a cartoon depicting the Prophet Mohammed as a dog.
"I don't think it should not be a problem to insult a religion, because it should be possible to insult all religions in a democratic way, " says Vilks from his home in rural Sweden.
"If you insult one, then you should insult the other ones."
His crude, sketched caricature shows the head of Prophet Mohammed on the body of a dog. Dogs are considered unclean by conservative Muslims, and any depiction of the prophet is strictly forbidden.
Vilks, who has been a controversial artist for more than three decades in Sweden, says his drawing was a calculated move, and he wanted it to elicit a reaction.
"That's a way of expressing things. If you don't like it, don't look at it. And if you look at it, don't take it too seriously. No harm done, really," he says.
When it's suggested that might prove an arrogant -- if not insulting -- way to engage Muslims, he is unrelenting, even defiant.
"No one actually loves the truth, but someone has to say it," he says.
Vilks, a self-described atheist, points out he's an equal opportunity offender who in the past sketched a depiction of Jesus as a pedophile.
Still one could argue Vilks should have known better because of what happened in Denmark in 2005, when a cartoonist's depictions of the prophet sparked violent protests in the Muslim world and prompted death threats against that cartoonist's life.
Vilks' cartoon, which was published in August by the Swedish newspaper Nerikes Allehanda, hasn't reached that level of global protests, although it has stoked plenty of outrage.
Muslims in Sweden demanded an apology from the newspaper, which has stood by Vilks on his freedom of expression stand. Pakistan and Iran also lodged formal protests with Sweden.
One Swedish Muslim woman who lives just an hour-and-a-half drive from Vilks said she hopes to make good on the al Qaeda threat and slaughter Vilks like a lamb.
"I can do this in the name of Allah, and I will not fail. I could slaughter him in the name of Allah," says the woman who identified herself only as Amatullah.
She adds, "If I get the opportunity."
Dressed in a black burqa from head to toe and uttering death threat after death threat, the woman -- a wife and mother -- says she is defending her religion and her prophet if she manages to kill Vilks.
Amatullah has already been fined for issuing death threats. Still, she claims she will never stop taunting him.
Swedish police, who declined CNN's request for an interview, have advised Vilks to abandon his home.
But the artist still works there by day and travels to a safe house by night. Vilks knows his defiance could get him killed, but he says his art is worth dying for.
As he sits at his computer, his phone buzzes with a text message. Another death threat has just come in, this one from Pakistan.
"I will kill you, you son a bitch," he reads.
There are hundreds of threats just like this one on his mobile phone, on his answering machine and in his e-mail inbox.
"You get used to it," he says. "It's a bit of hide and seek. It's like living in a film."
Hank Aaron got death threats, Scientists who question mankind's impact on global climate change get death threats, A dog rescue group that snatched away a puppy Ellen DeGeneres gave away recieved death threats, Jamie Gorelick received death threats, the judge in the Scooter Libby recieved death threats, the founder of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster has recieved death threats, rugby refs recieve death threats, the Dixie Chicks received death threats, and professors at the University of Colorad that teach evolution have received death threats.
I could be wrong, but each and every one of these people is not only alive, they did not feel the need to go into hiding.
Theo Van Gogh received death threats - He's dead.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali received death threats - She fled to America
Yemeni Jews received death threats - They fled their homes
Salman Rushdie received death threats - He has been in and out of hiding for 18 years
Get the picture?
Quote:"I can do this in the name of Allah, and I will not fail. I could slaughter him in the name of Allah," says the woman who identified herself only as Amatullah.
She adds, "If I get the opportunity."
Dressed in a black burqa from head to toe and uttering death threat after death threat, the woman -- a wife and mother -- says she is defending her religion and her prophet if she manages to kill Vilks.
Here we go again, invoking the name of Allah to justify heinous crimes. And this woman no doubt believes murdering Vilks will prove her piety and secure her place in heaven. Its all motivated by religion, yet when I say certain religious ideas are postively harmful, its me who gets criticised.
This is a real problem (the behaviour of fundamentalist and violent muslims in a liberal society)
How do we burst this boil? By closing down mosques? By deporting hotheads?
It seems it needs to be dealt with, and to deal with it, we (the liberal societies which think of themselves as tolerant) will need to become a good deal less tolerant and liberal, it seems, on this issue.
Certainly, the best solutions would come from within the muslim communities themselves (although they're not co-existing well in other parts of the world) but so far they don't seem willing to grasp the nettle.
Until they do, more unrest and more bloodshed is in prospect.
McTag wrote:How do we burst this boil? By closing down mosques? By deporting hotheads?
No not by taking direct action against people, except of course when they've broken the law. I agree its very difficult. And very depressing. But I think its necessary to challenge ideas, even if that means upsetting religious sensibilities. As I keep repeating, some ideas really are bad ideas, and a lot of them are religious in origin. Things have become too serious to hold us back from challenging ideas out of fear of upsetting religious sensibilities. Its time to engage in a battle of ideas. I'm not clever enough to do so, but I did come up with this
fight
Fundamentalist
Irrational
Religious
Extremism
with
Factual
Intelligible
Rational
Explanation.
Steve 41oo wrote:Its time to engage in a battle of ideas. I'm not clever enough to do so, but I did come up with this
fight
Fundamentalist
Irrational
Religious
Extremism
with
Factual
Intelligible
Rational
Explanation.
Well, how do you fight your own extremistic ideas? In a country lead by the head of a Christian church? Proud of what is is and got by invading foreigners?
I could imagine that such is rather difficult to handle ... especially, if you want to act lawfull - laws, made under a religious spirit by a religious inspired society.
I would like to see the Church of England disestablished. Its true of course that our laws and our society have grown out of religion. But we have also had the reformation and the enlightenment and despite the fact that the monarch is the head of the church of England, a general recognition that church and state are separate.
We haven't suffered from religious extremism since the days of Cromwell...until just recently.
Steve 41oo wrote:
We haven't suffered from religious extremism since the days of Cromwell...until just recently.
It's good that you can forget the IRA bombings and deaths so quickly.
But on the other hand - the UK is just one country in the world, which a certainly insular view.
It would seem to me that the muslims are now at the point the catholic church was at 500 years ago. We need to synchronise watches.
Certainly, the hotheads are getting their ideas from the mullahs. We need a top-down revision of the islamists, and to get that (I'm not asking for much today) we need a resolution in Palestine and Israel.
Walter Hinteler wrote:Steve 41oo wrote:
We haven't suffered from religious extremism since the days of Cromwell...until just recently.
It's good that you can forget the IRA bombings and deaths so quickly.
I wouldnt classify the IRA as religious extremists.
McTag wrote:It would seem to me that the muslims are now at the point the catholic church was at 500 years ago. We need to synchronise watches.
Certainly, the hotheads are getting their ideas from the mullahs. We need a top-down revision of the islamists, and to get that (I'm not asking for much today) we need a resolution in Palestine and Israel.
Actually we are coming full circle here. Although I've been arguing that religion inspires conflict, I think we all know that there are other more mundane things such as land money and natural resources, that people care about a great deal more. Although people like bin Laden can download religious software into the heads of ordinary people to turn them into guided missiles, the real struggle it seems to me is about control of middle east oil resources. (And land in Palestine/Israel)
Steve 41oo wrote:I wouldnt classify the IRA as religious extremists.
Well, perhaps I'm not so educated in their history. My fault.
But I agree its complicated. Religion did come into the NI troubles. And neither are the current "troubles" just about religion. I think religion is used as a weapon by people fighting over earthly matters.
Religion was only used/ had any significance in the NI conflict as a mark of which tribe you belonged to.
true
I once heard...dear me was it on a2k? that kids in Glasgow used to test each other by quoting the first line of the Lords Prayer. Apparantly there is a difference Catholic and Protestant
Our Father who art in heaven
Our Father which art in heaven
thus betrayed your clan and your fate (aged 6)
would be interested in verification of this story.
There are plenty of stories like that. All based on sad truth, if not literally true.
A scots-jewish comedian recalled an incident from his childhood in Glasgow:
"Are you a catholic or a protestant?"
-"Neither actually, I'm a jew"
"But are you a catholic jew or a protestant jew?"
