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Anti-Muslim Dutch politicians in hiding after death threats

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jul, 2005 06:12 am
Good point, JW. Definitely one of the more unexpected/interesting developments these past three, four years

JustWonders wrote:
*snip*

The backlash against Hirsi Ali has astonished and disappointed many Dutch feminists, who continue to count themselves among her biggest fans. Margreet Fogteloo, editor of the weekly De Groene Amsterdammer, said flatly that Mak is crazy. "People like him feel guilty because they were closing their eyes for such a long time to what was going on," she said. In what appears to be a Europe-wide pattern, some feminists are aligning themselves with the anti-immigrant right against their former multiculturalist allies on the left. Joining them in this exodus to the right are gay activists, who blame Muslim immigrants for the rising number of attacks on gay couples.

*snip*

Source
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jul, 2005 06:12 am
Meanwhile, other multicultural woes ...

Quote:
the TELEGRAAF tells us that, according to the mayor of Bloemendaal, children in his wealthy white community of yuppies are having language problems, because their au pair babysitters cannot speak good Dutch or English.

One mother whose au pair was from South Africa discovered her children were learning to speak very quirky Dutch, and had to send them off to a special speech therapist. They were speaking the language of the Boers and the Cape Coloureds: Afrikaans.


(From the Radio Netherlands Press Review)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jul, 2005 09:12 am
An odd side to Holland's ethnic and religious tensions ... (I must have told about this before, some time):

Quote:
Ajax's 'Jewish' identity turns sinister

By Craig S. Smith The New York Times
Tuesday, March 29, 2005

AMSTERDAM Just minutes before a high-stakes soccer game not long ago between this city's home team, Ajax, and their rivals from the southern city of Eindhoven, a chant built to a roar in the hall packed with supporters where they were serving plastic pint cups of Dutch beer.

"Jews, Jews, Jews!" thousands of voices cried.

Outside, souvenir stalls sold Israeli flags or flags with the Ajax logo, the head of the fabled Greek warrior, emblazoned inside the Star of David. Fans arrived with hats, jackets and scarves embroidered with Hebrew writing. Until recently, the team's official Web site even featured ringing tones of "Hava Nagila" and other popular Jewish songs that could be downloaded into fans' mobile phones.

Few, if any, of these people are Jewish.

"About 30 years ago, the other teams' supporters started calling us Jews because there was a history of Jews in Ajax," explained Fred Harris, a stocky man with brush-cut hair and a thick gold chain around his neck, "so we took it up as a point of pride and now it has become our identity."

For years, the team's management supported that unique identity.

But over time what seemed to many people like a harmless - if peculiar - custom has taken on a more sinister tone. Fans of Ajax's biggest rivals began giving the Nazis' signature straight-arm salute or chanting "Hamas, Hamas!" to provoke Ajax supporters. Ajax games have been marred by shouts of "Jews to the gas!" or simply hissing to simulate the sound of gas escaping.

The most disturbing displays have come during games against teams from The Hague or Amsterdam's greatest rival, Rotterdam. But even Eindhoven fans get into the act: Not long after the game started, a chant arose from the corner section of the city's stadium reserved for fans of the opposing team.

"Everyone who's not jumping is a Jew!" the crowd cried over and over again as thousands of people in the section jump up and down.

Ajax games have become so charged with such anti-Semitic displays that many of the team's Jewish fans now avoid the games altogether.

The offensive behavior is not one-sided: During a game against a German team late last year, a group of Ajax supporters displayed a banner that read "Jews take revenge for '40-'45," a reference to the Holocaust.

"We were probably too tolerant," said Uri Coronel, a Jew who was a member of Ajax's board in the 1990s, speaking about the management's past attitude.

Since then, the atmosphere at the games has become "unbearable," he said, adding that the fans' adoption of a Jewish identity is widely misunderstood as something positive.

"A lot of Jews all over the world believe that Ajax fans are proud to call themselves Jews, but it's a kind of hooliganism," he said.

There is no clear reason why Ajax, founded in 1900, became known as a Jewish club. Amsterdam has always had the largest Jewish population in the Netherlands and the club had two Jewish presidents in the 1960s and 1970s. It has had Jewish players at various times. The club, which owns 73 percent of the listed company that owns the team, also has some Jews among its 400 members, but no greater a percentage than their representation in the city's general population. There are no Jews on the club's current board.

"The club has no real Jewish origins," said John Jaakke, the club's dapper president, speaking before the Eindhoven game.

Nonetheless, the club became identified in the public mind with Jews in the 1950s, and by the 1970s, opposing fans began to call Ajax supporters Jews. The supporters adopted the identity in a spirit of defiance.

Jaakke said the trend has bothered the club's management for the past 10 years, and many Jewish supporters have complained that it makes them uncomfortable. Finally, last year, during a period of national debate about the language being used in soccer stadiums, the board decided to take the opportunity to address the issue. One of the main catalysts for that debate was not anti-Semitic chants, but chants calling the well-known girlfriend of an Ajax player a prostitute.

Jaakke called a meeting with representatives of the club's two main supporters' associations last year to communicate the management's concerns. Coronel, the son of Holocaust survivors, spoke to them about how hurtful the language is to Jews. Finally, in his New Year's speech, Jaakke expressed the management's desire that fans drop their pretended Jewish identity.

"Not only Jews are bothered by this," Jaakke said, "I'm not Jewish and I hate it, too."

The club has asked an independent committee, headed by the Dutch foreign minister, to discuss the issue and try to come up with a strategy for ending the practice. Jaakke said there has been some suggestion that fans substitute the word "Goden," or gods, for "Joden," or Jews, and call themselves "sons of gods," on the logic that Ajax was a sort of god.

Jaakke conceded that forcing the fans to change their behavior is a daunting task. "It's difficult for the supporters because it has become part of their identity," he said. "Many people are walking around with Jewish stars tattooed on their bodies and they're not Jewish at all."

Standing in a section behind the goal reserved for hard-core Ajax fans, the leader of the more fanatical of the teams' two supporter associations said he understood that it hurts Jews who lost family members during the war, but complained that it was the fault of other teams' fans.

"We don't say anything that hurts anyone," said the tall, sharp-featured man who would give only his first name, Henk. "Even if we stopped, they'd still call us Jews."

A cheer of "Let's go, Jews, let's go!" started up among the fans around him.

"It'll never change," he said. "It's been our identity for almost 30 years - you can't erase it." He tugged down the neck of his shirt to reveal a large light-blue Star of David tattooed on his chest with the word AJAX emblazoned above it in black Gothic letters.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jul, 2005 09:44 am
The trial of Islamist radical Mohammed Bouyeri for the November 2004 murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh opened with high security in place on today in Amsterdam.

His killing provoked over 150 retaliatory attacks on local Islamic mosques and schools and prompted changes in Dutch anti-terrorism laws.

Quote:
11.07.2005

Van Gogh Trial Opens Under High Security

The trial of Mohammed Bouyeri, a Moroccan Dutch national accused of the murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, opened Monday at a high security court in Amsterdam.

Bouyeri, whom prosecutors describe as a radical Islamist, was present in court but his lawyer said he did not want to be defended. He also refused to participate in his trial voluntarily but the court issued an order for him to be brought in regardless.

Bouyeri, 27, came to court dressed in a long black shirt and a Palestinian black and white checkered headscarf and carrying a green leather-bound book embossed with gold Arabic script.

His lawyer Peter Plasman announced he will not present a defense. "It is my client's wish that there will be no defense not by him but also not on his behalf... He will use his right to remain silent," Plasman said in a short statement.

When Judge Udo Willem Bentinck asked Plasman whether Bouyeri's refusal was connected to his beliefs the lawyer would not answer, but Bentick said, "I see your client nodding."

Plasman repeated that Bouyeri "takes complete responsibility for his actions and that specifically means his actions on November 2, 2004," the day Van Gogh was killed.

Born and raised in Amsterdam, the 27-year-old Bouyeri is a radical Islamist who hoped to die a martyr after killing controversial filmmaker Van Gogh, a distant relative of 19th century painter Vincent van Gogh, police said.


Public execution-style murder shocked the nation

Theo van Gogh, who was also a well-known columnist noted for his virulent attacks on multicultural society and Islam, was shot and stabbed in broad daylight while he cycled on the streets of Amsterdam. Several months before the murder he directed a short film called "Submission," which was critical of abuses against women under Islam.

A letter was left on his body that included quotations from the Koran and threats to several Dutch politicians, including Somali-born lawmaker Ayaan Hirsi Ali who wrote the script for "Submission."

Bouyeri was arrested as he was attempting to flee the murder scene, according to police.


Ethnic tensions escalated

The assassination caused a surge in ethnic tension in the Netherlands and a wave of over 150 reprisal attacks on mosques, Islamic schools and churches followed.

Bouyeri is charged with murdering Van Gogh, attempted murder of several police officers and bystanders and obstructing the work of Hirsi Ali as a member of parliament. If convicted he could be sentenced to a maximum of life in prison. Under Dutch law a life sentence is applied in the literal sense.

Even though prosecutors have said that Bouyeri was "a leading figure" in a terrorist organization known as the Hofstad group he has not yet been charged in that connection as they do not have sufficient evidence.


Possible second trial on terrorist charges

Monday's trial will therefore only focus on Van Gogh's murder and related events. Under the Dutch legal system, Bouyeri could be separately tried later for membership in a terrorist organization.

Security was tight around the courtroom with a sniffer dog checking the building and its surroundings for bombs and all visitors and media thoroughly searched.

The court has set two days for the trial, with the possibility of extending into Wednesday.

Author DW staff / AFP (nda)

source: DW-World
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 07:20 am
Van Gogh suspect confesses guilt

The man charged with the murder of the controversial Dutch film-maker Theo van Gogh has confessed to the killing at his trial in Amsterdam. Mohammed Bouyeri, 27, said he acted out of his religious beliefs and that he would do "exactly the same" if he were ever set free.

Prosecutors say Mr Bouyeri killed Mr Van Gogh in a ritualistic murder committed in the name of radical Islam.

The November 2004 murder shocked the Netherlands and raised ethnic tensions.

Mr Bouyeri, who has dual Dutch-Moroccan nationality, could face a life sentence if he is convicted.

"I take complete responsibility for my actions. I acted purely in the name of my religion," he told the court in Amsterdam.

"I can assure you that one day, should I be set free, I would do exactly the same, exactly the same," he added.

His lawyer told the court on Monday there would be no defence case put forward by Mr Bouyeri or on his behalf.

'Martyr' hopes

Mr Bouyeri is accused of shooting and stabbing Mr Van Gogh to death as he cycled along an Amsterdam street.

A note stuck to his body with a knife threatened the Somali-born Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who wrote the script for Mr van Gogh's film Submission, about violence against women in Islamic society.

Mr Bouyeri was arrested following a shoot-out with police just minutes after Mr Van Gogh's killing.

The prosecution said Mr Bouyeri had hoped to die a "martyr" at the hands of the police.

The murder sparked a wave of revenge attacks on mosques and counter-attacks against Christian churches in the Netherlands.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4675421.stm
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 08:11 am
In the Theo van Gogh murder trial, the public prosecutor has demanded a life sentence against the accused, Mohammed Bouyeri, with no chance of parole.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 12:20 pm
I would certainly hope so. He definitely meets my definition of a sociopath.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 01:25 pm
JustWonders wrote:
I would certainly hope so. He definitely meets my definition of a sociopath.


Well, in that case, he wouldn't go to prison but to a psychiatric institution.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 01:59 pm
(The below is my translation from the Dutch of course)

Quote:
On the street, admiration predominates

Tuesday 12 July 2005
De Volkskrant


Thing is, I too think Van Gogh went too far - way too far (even if the actual film bothered me less). But of course he didn't deserve to die - or any violence at all. Just a good speaking-to.

What to think of these kids who say he did? One is tempted to believe the elders (ie, those in their twenties) - these are the Dutch equivalent of ghetto kids, why wouldn't it be the Muslim-Dutch version of gangsta rap. I certainly ain't surprised by any of the above. A lot has happened, too. If you got kids who are both angry (partly justifiably so) AND stupid, trouble comes up fast. And it's a bit unfair to prop a mike in front of any old half-educated mid-teen, when he's hanging out with a bunch of other guys he's trying to impress (young Moroccans to me always sound like they're fighting) - I mean, it's a bit cheap, you know you gonna get scandalous soundbites.

But at the same time, I dunno. Alienation, resentment about exclusion, kids who by lack of empowered parenting get themselves in all kinds of trouble, who dont know how to behave properly in this society and so keep fukking up, add rampant testosterone to that - dangerous mix. If I read the comments of those elders, even if they're just ten years older, I also think: whoa, generation gap. They might just not have a clue. Be telling themselves all will still be OK, when right under their nose things are catching fire. There only needs to be 0,1% of those defiant Moroccan youth to actually stir the ****, to go from petty crime and braggodocio to full-fledged jihadi-ism (and if you think the prospect of suddenly becoming a Righteous, Pure Fighter for the Good isn't a tempting prospects for ghetto kids you should take a look at the number of Nation of Islam recruits in the US) - and we could have a lot more deaths on our hands. After all, unlike with the erstwhile Black Panther kids, there's international networks lurking to welcome, train and deploy these ones.

Who knows? We dont know what can happen - anything could <shrugs>
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 06:45 pm
Wow, nimh. How come? I've been following things through Pieter Dorsman (http://www.peaktalk.com/), but I'm curious about why you think he went too far.

What, for instance, would you envision the 'good talking-to' would have entailed?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 10:15 pm
There is some serious **** going on over there.

What do you think is going to happen?

I was listening to NPR about the flux of Muslims in to Leeds, where the four suspected 7/7 bombers lived. There seem to be dramatic shifts in population in Europe, and the Muslims are really becoming a serious demographic.

Killings over Islamic law and concerns over terrorism increase with their arrivals. I wonder what would stem this trend?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 07:48 am
JustWonders wrote:
Wow, nimh. How come? I've been following things through Pieter Dorsman (http://www.peaktalk.com/), but I'm curious about why you think he went too far.

Calling Muslims (period) backward and "goat fuc kers", calling their Prophet a pedophile, and hey - before he discovered Muslims, there was already this (and I'm quoting from this very thread here, its just that stuff like this doesnt seem to stick):

Quote:
this is the man who [..] cracked jokes about "how it smells like caramel here ... they must only burn Jews with sugar illness today". The man who [..] said that "if anyone deserves cancer, it's [then-Green Left leader] Paul Rosenmoller, the scoutmaster of politically correct Holland". Who in 1989 wrote that he "already looked forward to the day that we have to say goodbye to [TV personality] Henk van der Meyden when, as THEY tell me, the mercy of AIDS will finally, finally close Henk's tired eyes." The man who called an opponent a pig or compared him to Eichmann, who speculated that a Jewish critic must "have wet dreams about getting done by Mengele", and whose interpretation of being thought-provoking was, as he bragged afterwards, to greet Green Left MP Mohammed Rabbae with a "Allah is great, Allah is mighty, he has a cock of one meter eighty".


Hey, even cjhsa called Van Gogh "an outspoken bigot". Lash thought the Muslim goat fuc kers bit went too far too. You don't think he went too far?

I mean, bloody hell, I just noticed that everywhere that I posted previously about Van Gogh and mentioned that he used the word goat-fuc kers, its been replaced by asterisks now. Which is just plain stupid - I mean great, this way nobody will even get to know (or understand) just how far Van Gogh went - that must really help make people able2know about what has been happening in this country. On the other hand, the fact that even on a2k one is not allowed to use such a word - and here's a man who said it on prime time TV etc - kinda proves my point about "going too far", doesn't it?

Compare also this, for example (also from this thread, btw):

Quote:
But [NYT reporter] Craig Smith [reporting from Holland after Van Gogh's murder] has a problem of his own. Theo van Gogh was so controversial because of his most explicit way of attacking what he saw as the Muslim danger (though he used the same vitriol against intellectuals, filmmakers he did not agree with, politicians of the wrong side and, lest we forget - back in the eighties when Islam had not distracted his attention yet - Jews.) He called the prophet Mohammed a pedophile, radical Muslim leader Abou Jahjah "the pimp of the prophet" and described Muslims/Moroccans in general as "goat-fuc kers". And therein lies the problem. Smith needs to explain the backgrounds of this murder to the American readers, but "goat-fuc kers, no that word I am absolutely not allowed to use. It's allowed in the Dutch media? Unbelievable. It is really unthinkable that we would say something like that about anyone in America on the radio or TV or in a newspaper. [..]

Interesting if you think about it: an American, scandalised about how, in this Western society, someone has been killed for saying something that ... err ... he would never have been allowed to say in the US in the first place ...


As for including naked female bodies with Quran texts scribbled on them in Submission - blasphemy to Muslims - I'd consider that the freedom of an artist. But I also can't for the life of me imagine what he wanted to achieve with that, other than shock-value. If you crave attention always, you can take part in Jackass I suppose, or become Theo van Gogh. In both cases, you can however predict the consequences might possibly be painful.

(And if your blog source didnt tell you anything about all this, you should perhaps ask him why sometimes.)

JustWonders wrote:
What, for instance, would you envision the 'good talking-to' would have entailed?

I agree with the mix of Christian and social-democratic commentators that I quoted earlier in this thread who, after the murder of Van Gogh - apart from asserting that nothing like that should obviously ever be tolerated and the perpetrators should be put in jail for life - we should also - in any case, actually - take a pause and reflect on the quality of public discourse here, on TV and in politics. Whatever happened with respect? As Christian-Democrat Minister of Justice Hein Donner said (and was much rebuked for by both left and right), "You can not insult people into the depth of their [religious] convictions [..] insulting someone to the bone is something else than discussing things." (See this post for more on that).

If famous people keep being invited on American TV to rail at Jesus Christ and call him a pervert and all Christians sheep-fuc kers, wouldnt you want to give him a talking-to? Wouldnt you want to limit the ability of people to keep on saying such stuff on prime time TV all the time?

So thats my position on Van Gogh. Thats all wholly separate from what I think about Mohamed B., whose like poses a much greater danger to our society still, of course.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 08:16 am
and did you read what the islamist said to van gogh's mother in court yesterday?

i dont hate muslims or anyone else. i hate some of the ideas muslims hold in their heads, and i hate the actions such belief systems inspire SOME muslims to carry out.

islam is a sick religion. it has a cancer which is killing it and us.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 09:13 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
and did you read what the islamist said to van gogh's mother in court yesterday?

Yes, I was just translating it. (Long.) Am done now, will post it below.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 09:18 am
Talk about disturbing ... if reading this wont send shivers down your spine ... Very Scary.

This is a different species from the teens on the street with their braggodocio about how they wont take insults. This is the face of violent zealotry.

And it is one that seems to deliberately set an example for others to follow. He wants to be a hero, a martyr.

Odd how he seems to almost respect Van Gogh - as if he thinks he recognizes his mirror image?

Quote:
'If it had been my father I would have done the same thing'
Murder of Theo van Gogh


Trouw
By Hélène Butijn and Kustaw Bessems (my translation)
13 July 2005

Mohammed B. made use of his right to a last word. He spoke using notes that he had been making during the court proceedings.

--------------------

Mohammed B.: „Wow." Judge: „What are you saying?" B.: „I said 'wow'. You have written beautifully. You offer me the opportunity to say something. You will not interrupt me. And I'm allowed to be critical."

Judge: "You can say what you want."

B. starts speaking in Arabic.

Judge: "Now I will interrupt you. To ask the interpretor to translate this."

Interpreter: "This is a usual text when you begin speaking. He says: I want to thank Allah. I ask Allah for help with the words that I'm about to speak. I testify that there is no other God but Allah."

B., in Dutch: "I have thought long whether or not I was going to say something. Before I continue, I want to address what has been said about the reversed world. I assume that was about the defence, Mister Plasman and Mister Sarikaya, here behind my back. (The judge had reproached the lawyers that they had defended their client in the press, but did not state a defence during the court case, ed.) I think and I feel that they do not deserve it that you drag their name through the mud like that. Despite tha fact that the gentlemen know that I do indeed hate their unbelief with heart and soul, they do their work with conviction. In eight, nine months they have been two of the few people of whom I believe that they act from conviction. You can't say that about many people."

"The reason I now say something, is not that I feel obliged to tell this court anything. The only person to whom I am maybe obliged to do so, is the mother of mister Van Gogh. I have to honestly confess that I do not empathise. I do not feel your pain. I can not. I do not know hoe it is to lose a child that you have brought to the world with so much pain and tears. Partly because I am not a woman. Partly I can not empathise with you because you are an unbeliever. You can, may blame me for that."

"I know that the way I behave myself. my attitude yesterday and today, is very confronting for you. And for more people here. And many people know that they are not just looking to a suspect, but that they are also fighting with their own emotions."

"Concerning the indictment: I can completely agree with what the mister public prosecutor has said. In broad lines at least. I take the full responsibility upon me. You have characterised what would eventually have driven me to what I did. I am purely driven by my belief."

"It is indeed cowardly if I would hide here behind the procedural rules by saying nothing. I do not want to escape the chance to get the maximum punishment. Herewith I say straight away what the weakness of this court procedure is. I do not recognize your court procedure. Perhaps you do not recognize my court either.

I did understand from mrs. Van Gogh that she can perhaps find some comfort if the maximum punishment is given and in the fact that I get the maximum prison sentence, that is what I have understood."

"Concerning your expert, mister Peters (professor of Islamic law, ed.): he has indicated that I do indeed have texts that preach violence. He says there are also texts that preach peace. But you did not ask Peters the question when peace is preached and when violence. You have neglected to do so."

"I will not talk about politics here or keep giving a religious strand, I am not here to make a political statement, or a political statement with a religious strand, I will spare you that. But I do want you to know that I acted from conviction. It is not because I hate your son Theo van Gogh so much, not because he is Dutch or because I feel insulted as a Moroccan. I have never felt insulted."

"I can never ... suspect your son of any hypocrisy. He was no hypocrite. He said things from conviction. I know that he said things out of conviction."

(leaves a long silence)

So the whole tale that I would feel insulted as a Moroccan, because he called us goat-fuc kers, is not true at all. I acted from my belief. If it had been my father or my little brother, I would have done the same. You can not suspect me of any sentimentality.

The question this court faces: a maximum punishment, but the suspect gives no insight into his state of mind. But I can assure you: should I be released, I will do exactly the same. Exactly the same. You thought perhaps that I feel imprisoned. I do not feel imprisoned by walls or a small pen. I will tell you: I feel free and I am free. Otherwise, concerning your criticisms: perhaps with Moroccans you mean the muslims. I don't blame you for that. The same law that obliges me to hack off the head of anyone who insults Allah and the Prophet, the same law obliges me to establish myself in a country where, as the prosecutor called it, the 'free word' is proclaimed.

But what, then? I tell you, this reproach of yours... This reproach would have legal validity if there exists a country where people like me can seek refuge. That you stop a man like me, I do not blame you for that, that is your job."

(looks around to face the policemen who are sitting at the back of the courtroom)

And I think that those policemen who on 2 November were also confronted with me, have the right to know that I did not shoot to spare you, but I shot to kill you. And to be killed.

You may send all your psychologists, psychiatrists and experts to me, but I tell you, you will never understand this. You can not. If I am released, and I had the opportunity to once again do what I did on 2 November, wallah (by Allah, ed.), I would have done exactly the same.

Perhaps you know... I am not here to evoke pity or to make reproaches. Perhaps that can be a little comfort to mrs. Van Gogh. Otherwise I do not care, to be honest."
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 09:32 am
From Radio Netherlands Press Review:
Quote:
SHOT TO KILL

The Volkskrant prints the words that Bouyeri addressed in court yesterday to the policemen who arrested him. "I shot to kill you and to be killed." The Volkskrant says, "These words came down like a sledgehammer on the eleven police officers who were involved in his arrest. Weeping, they embraced and consoled each other."

In a commentary the Volkskrant writes, "Bouyeri was handed over to the authorities alive. He was thus deprived of dying the martyr's death he desired so fervently - and this should make it amply clear that this course of action is not rewarded in the Dutch penal system."
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 09:40 am
I hope people will READ what he SAID and UNDERSTAND.

Thanks for bringing it, nimh.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:31 am
Wow, this one is surprising; I'd have thought my compatriots more bloodthirsty than that.

Opinion poll by Maurice de Hond (www.peil.nl) ©2005

If it were possible in Holland, do you think he [Mohammed B.] should get the death penalty?

Yes 34%
No 63%

Results are split by voting behaviour. Only a majority of List Fortuyn voters (62%) and of those currently planning to vote Group Wilders (80%) answered "yes".

Voters of the right-wing liberal VVD were evenly split, while a clear majority of Christian-Democrats (58%), Democrats (76%), Labour (77%), Socialists (78%) and the Green Left (87%) said "no".

Perhaps its also b/c Mohammed himself said he wanted the death penalty, and so people are not willing to do him the favour?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:51 am
thanks for the translation nimh, truly horrifying.

For me it re inforces what I have been trying to articulate for ages now. B's hatred of van Gogh was inspired by his religious belief, that is obvious, he says as much and I think he speaks the truth. What is dangerous is not the man. Its not the kalashnikov. Its not even the man with the kalashnikov. It is the idea in his head which causes him to use the weapon.

Now many people say those ideas are an aberration from Islam. But the fact is those who hold them believe themselves to be the purest of the pure moslems.

It is time in my view to go on the offensive. An intellectual offensive. To expose the truth behind the myth of Mohammed, to show the history of the development of Islam and to demonstrate how this has influenced modern thinking and behaviour for both good and bad. Above all its necessary to expose ideas that lead to violence as delusional irrational and wrong.

Bouyeri should be denounced by all muslims as non Islamic.

He should be, if necessary pumped full of drugs, to chemically alter his mind and renounce his beliefs. If this is not possible we should lie about what he now says. We should put words in his mouth. We should hold up his ideas to ridicule.

I know what I'm advocating here, I'm advocating a full frontal attack on fundamentalist islamic beliefs. And it will upset many muslims. But if we can deter young people from admiring Bouyeri and instead treating him and his ideas with contempt, we would be doing ourselves and Islam a great good in the long term.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 03:23 pm
nimh wrote:
You don't think he went too far?


No, I can honestly say that the thought that Van Gogh 'went too far' never entered my mind until I saw your post yesterday. I also have to say that I only read of his remarks after his death.

He was ONE voice. One. Were his words vile, offensive, crude and violently illogic? Yes. Did he commit a crime? No. Did he deserve to die? Not in my opinion.

I do, however, understand why he made Submission in collaboration with Hersi Ali. I watched the film and was repulsed by the subject matter, but at the same time, I hoped it would be shown all over Holland.

Ward Churchill recently spewed more of his brand of hatred in cleverly-worded comments suggesting that our troops serving in Iraq should kill their superior officers as a show of dissent. Am I offended and repulsed? Of course. Do I think he should die? No, and I hope no one else thinks so either. He's ONE voice. One.

If either Van Gogh or Churchill attacked in such a way to cause harm to others (physical harm), then they would and should be dealt with by law enforcement. No one has the right to silence them on their own...no one has the right to unlawfully take another's life just because they find them offensive.

The jihadist propagandists who shout "death to all infidels" can shout all they want as far as I'm concerned. The minute they shout with a gun aimed at someone, game over.

When al-Qaeda releases targeting advice, saying "We have to target Jews and Christians. We have to let anybody that fights God, his prophet or the believers know that we will be killing them. There should be no limits and no geographical borders. We have to turn the land of the infidels into hell as they have done to the lands of the Muslims.", we need to pay close attention. Talk is cheap. When they act upon their message, we need to hunt them down.

It wasn't anything Van Gogh did or said that led Bouyeri to the mindset of murder. He was taught to hate those who believed differently from him and he was taught through the guise of his religion.

He [Bouyeri] argued that he did not killl her son out of hate, "but I have chopped off his head according to the law that orders me to do so to everyone who offends Allah. I do not not feel your pain as I do not know what it is to suffer the loss of a child"

Islam-expert Peters declared before the court that Bouyeri is obsessed by death, violence and mutilation. He was able to deduct that from the documents found in the house of the defendant. The police discovered texts calling for the death of infidels and CD-Roms with horrific scenes of mutilations, amputations, and liquidations.

Had Bouyeri not been apprehended, he'd have continued killing (Hersi Ali his second victim for sure) and all in the name of religion. HIS religion. His own lawyer argued that Bouyeri's action were motivated by his religion.

You ask 'whatever happened to respect?'

Indeed. Where is the respect in Bouyeri's religion? Where is the tolerance that you, rightfully, would expect of Bouyeri's religion?

You quoted Hein Donner as saying "You can not insult people into the depth of their [religious] convictions [..] insulting someone to the bone is something else than discussing things."

YES, YOU CAN! An insult, even into the depth of one's religious convictions does NOT WARRANT MURDER. EVER.
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