The NEXT coming Oz election thread!

Strangely enough, on this score, I agree with Hanson.

Now, before you chew my ear off, have you ever done any reading into the Islamic Faith, or into the founding of Islam (which by the way, is the only founding of a major religion that is Historically recorded)?

A few facts (well...if the books I read were correct, and not somehow twisting the facts) :

PS. Most of this is from memory. I hope it's an accurate in timing, but the overall scenario I remember quite well :

Islam divides the world into two abodes : The abode of Islam, and the Abode of War.

I'm sure you can guess 'when the world will be at peace"....which of course will never happen, because muslims can't seem to agree who is muslim...unless someone converts to christianity.

Their prophet started off in Mecca who's residents all practiced worship of multiple Gods, and preached peace, and not to harm anyone, even in self defense.

The Prophet (I'll call him that, seeing as I can't recall exactly how mohamed was spelt) was friendly with the Jews (until he realised they would never name him as a prophet)...then he turned on them (I don't recall the timing of this)

He got booted out of Mecca...and ended up in Medina, where he ended up converting some, and doing deals with tribal leaders to convert.

Because his people were being attacked, he changed his teachings to allow his followers to use violence to defend themselves.

As he gained power in Medina, he wanted to return to Mecca and 'take it back'. He changed his teachings once more to say that it was okay to use violence to convert (ie convert or die).

He took Mecca.

Having success he then changed his teachings to 'it is your duty to convert people by whatever means available (ie. voluntarily or militarily).

He then suffered a military defeat by a superior force...and because, if it was Islamic duty to convert by military force, his forces would get wiped out...he changed his teachings to 'if the military force you face is stronger than you, then you must bide your time and build your strength. Convert through voluntary conversion until you are once more stronger than your enemy"

................................
Further things I've noticed / read:

If you have you ever wondered why they call most terrorists 'fundamentalists' - see the above description (that's a tie in that I made)

About 10% of the Islamic world is 'radicalised' : (which equates to about 100,000,000 of them)

80% of the worlds conflicts involve the Islamic faith (often against the prevailing govt)...again, see above description.

In Australia, I have read newspaper articles where Imams have called for Australia to be under Sharia Law.

If you have read much into the founding of Al Qaeda (which is a very interesting story all by itself), Bin Laden believes that the reason Islam has stagnated is because it has gone away from the roots of it's founding (ie Muslims arent fundamental enough for his liking)

Islamic youths in western countries are becoming radicalised/fundamentalised to action...which is not something we have seen prior 2001.

We have around 350,000 muslims in Australia (if they all filled in the religion box on the 2001 census)

As I watch things around the world...I find that events and the Actions of fundamental muslims against the west appear to be consistent with what I have read of the founding of Islam.

PS I read about this stuff while doing research into why the Middle East hates America...which is another interesting topic all by itself.

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Hi vikorr

It's hard to know quite how to respond to your post. A large part of my attitude toward Muslims has been formed through teaching their children, in a number of different schools, for more than 20 years now, on & off. I have also worked with many Muslim men & women in school settings. I live in an area of Melbourne with a high Muslim population. You could say that I have considerable contact with Muslims of different nationalities & cultures on a daily basis.

If I've learnt anything from my exposure to so many different people of the Muslim faith it is that it's a mistake to assume that they mostly have the same political/religious beliefs. There's by no means some sort of consensus on the "rightness" of fundamentalist teachings. In fact, there's an abhorrence to this view from many Muslims I know, who far prefer a secular approach to matters political. Others are very religious & have little interest in the wider community outside their own culture. Others again (particularly some male secondary students I taught at the time) reacted to the Iraq invasion with considerable anger & outrage. (But then, I felt pretty outraged myself!)

What I'm trying to say is that Muslims come in all sorts of varieties, shapes & sizes! (As do Christians.) So when Pauline Hanson declares that we should have a moratorium on Muslim migrants, precisely which Muslims is she talking about? Arabs? Turks? Ethiopians? Lebanese? Malaysians? asylum seekers? Or perhaps the whole lot? And on what basis is she making her call? I suspect she's just grabbing headlines, the best way she knows how.

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Crikey, what's going on here? Some sort of uranium fire sale? First India, now Russia .... & god know where, next week!:

Govt confirms uranium talks with Russia
Posted 7 hours 11 minutes ago
Updated 3 hours 20 minutes ago

Foreign Affairs Minister Alexander Downer has confirmed the Government's intentions to sign a uranium export deal with Russia.

Mr Downer says he hopes negotiations will be finalised during President Vladamir Putin's visit to Australia next month.

He says Australia should support responsible countries wanting to use uranium to fuel civil power stations.

Mr Downer says there is no danger of the uranium exports being used to support Russia's military programs.

"In the same way as we have nuclear safeguard agreements with other countries it would be a breach of international law if they were to try to do that," he said.

"I don't [think] Russia would want to become a rogue state and break international law, it would lead to a collapse with their relations with Australia and probably with an awful lot more countries.".... <cont>

http://www.abc.com.au/news/stories/2007/08/17/2008279.htm

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msolga wrote:

Mr Downer says there is no danger of the uranium exports being used to support Russia's military programs.

The was also no danger of the AWB being involved in kickbacks.

Is this man for real ?

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Quote:

If I've learnt anything from my exposure to so many different people of the Muslim faith it is that it's a mistake to assume that they mostly have the same political/religious beliefs. There's by no means some sort of consensus on the "rightness" of fundamentalist teachings. In fact, there's an abhorrence to this view from many Muslims I know, who far prefer a secular approach to matters political. Others are very religious & have little interest in the wider community outside their own culture. Others again (particularly some male secondary students I taught at the time) reacted to the Iraq invasion with considerable anger & outrage. (But then, I felt pretty outraged myself!)

What I'm trying to say is that Muslims come in all sorts of varieties, shapes & sizes! (As do Christians.) So when Pauline Hanson declares that we should have a moratorium on Muslim migrants, precisely which Muslims is she talking about? Arabs? Turks? Ethiopians? Lebanese? Malaysians? asylum seekers? Or perhaps the whole lot? And on what basis is she making her call? I suspect she's just grabbing headlines, the best way she knows how.

Hi Msgola,

I realise that there are moderate Muslims who wouldn't hurt a fly. I know that there are Muslims who prefer secular rule, and there are Muslims that are well adapted to Australia and respect other Australian people. From that point of view, those already in Australia are welcome. I also know that their views on such vary on culture to culture.

...However, also given that most everywhere that there is a majority of Muslims, there is Sharia Law (and non Muslims are treated as second class citizens)...and many countries where there is an approaching majority of Muslims (or a large part of the country is Muslim)...there is a civil war...then it follows that the more Muslims you allow into the country the more like it is that....(you can finish the thought line I'm sure)
....................................................................................
The more Muslims you have,the greater the number of fundamentalists/extremists (note : obviously extremism doesn't necessarily mean you are going to take violent action...otherwise there'd be 100M holy warriors running around...but it is from this section that the terrorists & most Jihadists come from)

Say that the world percentage of extremists (10%) is driven up by a higher percentage in the Middle East (say 15%)...so lets make Australias percentage 3%...that's still 10,500 extremists in this country.

Now...as they found in Brittian, in the ME and everywhere really, it seems many 'ordinary' Muslims are sympathetic to suicide bombers, to Al Qaeda and the likes (Brittian I think recorded a 50% sympathy rate)

If one of our Australian extremists decided to blow himself up...he generates a lot of sympathy. Australian security cracks down...generates more sympathy...and to me that equals more potential recruits.

This may be a 'what if' scenario...but it appears to be happening in Brittian (maybe in Spain - we don't get much news from there), and so the possibility that it could happen in Australia is real enough.
...........................................................................................
The point of everything I posted above is that the religion itself has inherent dangers in it's teachings. Obviously one can choose to read the Koran as a book of peace (by choosing its peaceful passages over the violent ones) and this is acceptable. However...it is obviously just as easy to justify violence in the name of the spread (and probably glorification) of Islam (this is after all, how their prophet spread the faith).
............................................................................................
The Imams stating that Sheik Hali from Lakemba was 'misunderstood' when he basically said it's alright, it's understandable if you rape western women...they entice you to do it' (you know - the cat and naked meat analogy)...it appears that lying to further the purposes of Islam is alright as well (following along the lines of the analogy of what you do when you face a superior military force)...I recall another incident where a news interviewer asked a muslim youth about something an Imam had said - the youth got a sly smile on his face and said "he was lying of course' (I can't recall what the original thing the Imam said was). Unfortunately I've little doubt that I will see more evidence of this sort of attitude as the years pass.

Many muslims are no doubt good, kind and loving people, and the read the Koran in such a light, which is fine in and of itself...that said, I just think sad reality is showing that the Religion itself (and its teachings)lends itself to violence in the cause of the spread of Islam (and no doubt also for its glorification)

If I may indulge in some cynicism...seeing as the suicide bombers are going home to heaven where 72 virgins and an everlasting orgasm await them...wouldn't this be incentive to many people to blow themselves up?

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Hello again, vikorr

You know, I'm not so sure that this "72 virgin/ever-lasting orgasm" thing is quite as widely believed by Muslims as some people fear. I think you're playing the devil's advocate on this one, myself. :wink:

I do hear what you're saying but I am probably more of an optimist than you are. For starters, I honestly don't believe that "the Muslim threat" in Australia is anywhere near as serious in Oz as say, the UK. (As much as our political leaders would like us to believe it is!) However if we continue invading Muslim countries for dubious reasons & if our government & the media continue to treat all people of the Muslim faith as potentially dangerous & "the other" in the manner we have fast become accustomed to, well, we may just create a real problem here, too.

I agree with your thoughts on the dangers of extremist religious teachings. I was brought up (very strictly!) in the Catholic church & we were taught that anyone who wasn't RC was "the other", the infidel, if you like. No way were they getting into heaven like we were! We were also encouraged to breed like rabbits (courtesy of the rhythm method :wink: ), pressured to send our children to RC schools, to vote DLP & defeat the commies & trade unionists! Some folks openly supported the IRA's struggle & sent funds to continue the good fight against the enemy in Ireland & the UK .... But somehow, I and many other folk who were indoctrinated in this way, survived in one bit to become reasonably tolerant, constructive members of this society. I hold out hope that Muslims in Australia now might come out the other end OK, too. A lot depends on how we treat them, I reckon. I see hopeful signs around me, particularly in my own community & in my work. (Some of the intelligent, feisty Turkish Muslim girls I taught last week take absolutely no crap from their male (Turkish) classmates, some of whom are still rather like the spoiled little princes reminiscent of their 1980s counterparts. But things have changed a lot since the 80s. For starters, many of them would have been educated in a single-sex school. But now these girls rule, tell me tell you! :wink: )

I'm uncomfortable that we are treating people from different cultures/or with different religious beliefs ways that are different to the rest of the community. This is clearly discrimination, which then feeds the hostility we are so worried about. Me, I'd prefer to see some changes like this:

* I think the (now entrenched) policy of granting government education funding to almost any group, no matter how extreme, how obscure, or how viable, is wrong. It is multiculturalism gone mad & works against a cohesive democratic society. (I include some extreme Christian & other schools here as well.) It is not unusual to see busloads of Muslim, or other students, being collected from their homes & bused to their schools. How much contact do these students have with the community outside their homes/churches/schools? And is this desirable? I don't think so, but political pandering to various ethnic & religious groups (for political gain with their communities) is now so entrenched it would take a very brave party to change things. I firmly believe that this needs to be done, though. Not only does this approach undermine the funding (& quality of public schools, which most students attend) it also undermines the achievement of an integrated society.

* The other thing I would like to see is for all Australian citizens to be treated the same under Australian law. No turning a blind eye to "cultural", political or religious differences when it come to female genital mutilation, aspects of "Sharia law", forced marriages & other cultural practices which are clearly against Australia law. Potential Australian citizens should be informed that adherence Australian laws is mandatory & that the laws will be properly enforced. Then they could make a clear decision on whether to become citizens of this country or not. And the other side of the coin: I would also expect a so-called "suspected terrorist" like Haneef to be treated exactly the same under Australian law as anyone else in the community. Clearly he was treated quite differently for political reasons.

Enough. I'm ranting.

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Quote:

"the Muslim threat" in Australia is anywhere near as serious in Oz as say, the UK.

I quite agree.

Quote:

However if we continue invading Muslim countries for dubious reasons & if our government & the media continue to treat all people of the Muslim faith as potentially dangerous & "the other" in the manner we have fast become accustomed to, well, we may just create a real problem here, too.

To a majority degree, I agree here also...and I acknowledge that there are also other major influences in their lives.

Quote:

I hold out hope that Muslims in Australia now might come out the other end OK, too.

Same here

Quote:

A lot depends on how we treat them, I reckon

A lot yes.

Quote:

Some of the intelligent, feisty Turkish Muslim girls I taught last week take absolutely no crap from their male counterparts, some of whom are still rather like the spoiled little princes reminiscent of their 1980s counterparts.

Turkey is an abnormality among MiddleEastern countries. Strangely enough, Turkeys move to a secular government is integrally linked to Gallipoli, and Mustafa Kemal, otherwise known as Attaturk (Father of the Turks). His poem regarding his fallen brothers (both Turk & Enemy solidiers) is one of the greatest and most moving pieces of poetry I have ever readfor its sheer magnitude of empathy and forgiveness (it's a short poem)

Quote:

I'm uncomfortable that we are treating people from different cultures/or with different religious beliefs ways that are different to the rest of the community.

For the most part this holds true, and I agree. There are exceptions where I don't agree...which exceptions hold true for white Australia, or for any culture/race/religion.

Quote:

I think the (now entrenched) policy of granting government education funding to almost any group, no matter how extreme, how obscure, or how viable, is wrong. It is multiculturalism gone mad & works against a cohesive democratic society. (I include some extreme Christian & other schools here as well.) It is not unusual to see busloads of Muslim, or other students, being collected from their homes & bused to their schools. How much contact do these students have with the community outside their homes/churches/schools? And is this desirable? I don't think so, but political pandering to various ethnic & religious groups (for political gain with their communities) is now so entrenched it would take a very brave party to change things. I firmly believe that this needs to be done, though. Not only does this approach undermine the funding (& quality of public education, where most students attend) it also undermines the achievement of an integrated society.

And I agree with this.

Quote:

The other thing I would like to see is for all Australian citizens to be treated the same under Australian law. No turning a blind eye to "cultural", political or religious differences when it come to female genital mutilation, aspects of "Sharia law", forced marriages & other cultural practices which are clearly against Australia law. Potential Australian citizens should be informed that adherence Australian laws is mandatory & that the laws will be properly enforced. Then they could make a clear decision on whether to become citizens of this country or not. I would also expect a so-called "suspected terrorist" like Haneef to be treated exactly the same under Australian law as anyone else in the community. Clearly he was treated differently for political reasons

I agree with this (although I don't know that arranged marriages are against the law?)

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Friends, then? :wink:

The Turks are also a more established community in Oz than say, the Lebanese Muslims, who migrated later. During the 80s it was common (mandatory, almost) for both the boys & the girls to be segregated & educated in single sex schools. I'm truly amazed at the differences I see in the 2007 girls! One, asking me if I'd married someone from my "own nationality" last week, expressed strong approval that I hadn't. ( I didn't go on to declare that the marriage was now history! :wink: ) "Hell," she said, "I wouldn't marry a Turk for quids!" Laughing

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vikorr wrote:

...I don't know that arranged marriages are against the law?)

I should have said enforced arranged marriages. Still happen.

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vikorr wrote:

Turkey is an abnormality among MiddleEastern countries. Strangely enough, Turkeys move to a secular government is integrally linked to Gallipoli, and Mustafa Kemal, otherwise known as Attaturk (Father of the Turks). His poem regarding his fallen brothers (both Turk & Enemy solidiers) is one of the greatest and most moving pieces of poetry I have ever readfor its sheer magnitude of empathy and forgiveness (it's a short poem)

Yes, Attaturk is held in esteem, absolute awe by many Turks, I know. His portrait is featured prominently on many a Melbourne Turkish eatery wall. You certainly can't miss his influence!

I've heard that poem. My first hearing moved me to tears. Such compassion & grace extended to the fallen Australians, who afterall, were the invaders of his country!

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msolga wrote:

bungie wrote:
msolga wrote:

Mr Downer says there is no danger of the uranium exports being used to support Russia's military programs.

The was also no danger of the AWB being involved in kickbacks.

Is this man for real ?

AWB & kickbacks? Absolutely no connection! None!

But I'm hoping I'm merely being paranoid about this sequence of events:

1 ... Take control of Aboriginal land.

2 ... Sell uranium to France (& Russia coming up!)

3 ... Complain about inadequate port facilities in some states ... which may require some federal intervention. (JH today)

Someone please tell me I'm being a bit fanciful here!

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Hi Msgola

Thank you for your replies. In some ways you may say I have been playing devils advocate...that is to say, I have mentioned one side of my thoughts...purely to make a point about the overal religion itself.

On the other side, I recognise that the followers are human, with the same failings as you and I.

One of the reasons I tend to mention the things I said regarding Islam in stark contrast is that western society has been taught that blind tolerance of other cultures/religion is a virtue.

Tolerance itself is a virtue yes...until it blinds one to what is happening around them...or until it is taken so far as to cause one to be subjugated to the thing they are 'tolerating'.

Tolerance is the acceptance of others as humans even though they are different to us...seeing humans of equal value to us...people who have just as much right to practice their values and beliefs.

Tolerance however, is not being a doormat...setting aside our own values and beliefs, and our own needs and wants for the sake of someone else. Tolerance is not 'saying nothing' when we think something is wrong...but rather, it is making a statement of inquiry into the differences...and if then we still disagree...making it known, but genuinely attempting to find a way to live side by side in harmony.

The other reason I said what I said regarding the Islamic faith, is that too many Australians are ignorant of its founding, and it's history...and it's current state...and they make judgements based on this ignorance, which is a dangerous thing (by the way...I don't consider myself overly educated on this matter either)

As a point of curiosity, did you know that most ME kingdoms are less than 100 years old, having been set up by the Brittish and the French after WW1...and that Kuwait (remember desert storm?) had been ruled from Bagdad for 2000 years prior to WW1.

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I have enjoyed reading msolga's and vikorr's discussions. It's great to see people can still do this in a civil manner without going for the jugular.

Hats off to you both !

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Why, thank you, bungie.
But you know that you (& anyone else whose interested) can join in at any stage, too! (hint, hint :wink: )

Oooooooooh & how about Kevin-Oh-7?! Surprised

Drunk in a strip club in NYC something like 4 (?) years ago! Gosh.

(A bit like when Malcolm lost his pants in Memphis some time back. :wink:)

Anyway, I wonder if this will impact on KR's standing with churchy conservatives?

Kevin-Oh-7 is suggesting the leak came from Alexander D's office. Can we expect some dirt from Labor in retaliation?

This could turn into a very ugly campaign!

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Well, there you go: The Libs are silent. They know nothing. Nothing! But they're hoping, hoping that this story will bring Kevin-Oh-7 down a rung or 6! .... & Kev says he should have left the place when he realized the sort of place it was! <snort> ... Oh this is all so incredibly silly!:

Govt ministers quiet on Rudd's strip club visit
Posted 31 minutes ago

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200703/r132569_442422.jpg

Kevin Rudd says he should have left the club when he realised what kind of place it was (File photo). (AFP: William WEST)

Federal ministers are refusing to comment publicly about Opposition Leader Kevin Rudd's drunken visit to a New York strip club in 2003, which was revealed in a major newspaper today.

If anyone enjoys attacking Mr Rudd, it is Treasurer Peter Costello.

But not today.

"This is something that I really wouldn't want to comment on," he said.

Also unusually circumspect is Health Minister Tony Abbott.

"I have decided to be a Trappist monk on this issue," he said.

It is Kevin Rudd doing the talking, although he says he cannot remember what happened that night because he was too drunk.

He says voters will decide whether it reflects on his character.

"I think the important thing though on the issue of character is owning up to your mistakes when you make them," he said.

Mr Rudd says he should have left the club when he realised what kind of place it was.

He says he showed poor judgement and regrets the incident.

Labor MP Warren Snowdon, who went to the club with Mr Rudd, says the story is a beat-up.

He says he felt "intimidated" by the strip club environment and he and Mr Rudd left after about 40 minutes.

"We stayed for a reasonably short length of time, nothing untoward happened and we left," he said.

He says he regrets visiting the club but will not apologise for it.

http://www.abc.com.au/news/stories/2007/08/19/2009066.htm

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Well at least he is a cheap drunk .... only took 40 minutes ....

But this was 4 years ago .... Hey, I cant remember what I did 4 days ago ..

Is this the best dirt they can find ?

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I was reading the feedback to all this on the Courier Mail online (unfortunately my local paper), and rather surprisingly, most of the 275 comments posted were supporting him, or saying 'thank God he's not perfect. One post I remember went so far as to say 'now that I know he's human, I'm changing my vote to him'

Of course, this particular behaviour will be of concern to conservative Christians...whether or not it decides their vote, I've no idea.

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I don't really give a damn what he does.

However, amnesia doesn't come on after only one or two drinks so if he or any other polly goes out on the town at our expense, I damn-well expect them to remember it! (Yes, I remember big Mal, and the same applied to him. Very Eminent Person - hahahahahahaha!!!)

Sorry, he's lost my vote - how could you trust him? Sure, it makes him human and 'one of the boys' but -
a) he can be human and still retain his dignity and
b) I wouldn't vote for one of the boys either.

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Hello Lezzles

Everyone is entitled to their own perspective.

I recall once, in the 80's, a guy I didn't have much time for, asking me if I liked Pink Floyd. Not being any big Pink Floyd fan, but not disliking them either, I said "They're okay".

He replied "Their gay."

Now what does a persons sexuality have to do with their singing ability?

In a similar vein, what does Rudd attending a strip club have to do with his ability to govern a country well?

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vikorr wrote:

I was reading the feedback to all this on the Courier Mail online (unfortunately my local paper), and rather surprisingly, most of the 275 comments posted were supporting him, or saying 'thank God he's not perfect. One post I remember went so far as to say 'now that I know he's human, I'm changing my vote to him'

Of course, this particular behaviour will be of concern to conservative Christians...whether or not it decides their vote, I've no idea.

Personally (though I'm hardly Kevin-Oh-7's biggest fan) it's a bit of a relief to discover that he's not the smarmy, buttoned-up head prefect type that his media team have presented to us. .... though I would have preferred that be blotted his copybook in a more tried-and-true,tradition Labor fashion, like being arrested attempting to storm the barricades protesting the Iraq invasion, or by swearing passionately at the bosses for exploiting vulnerable workers via JH's IR laws, or ..... you get the gist!
Now something like that would have really impressed me! Razz

Listening to to talkback on Melbourne's ABC radio this morning, most callers were concerned that this sort of nonsense was taking up so much headline space at the expense of far more serious issues like uranium sales to India, global warming, aboriginal issues in the NT ...There were also a number of callers expressing revulsion that the Libs had apparently imported "US gutter politics" to Oz. But basically most callers wanted to talk about important election issues.

I just heard JH on The World Today taking the high moral ground on this. He didn't want to discuss Kev's big night out at all, just wanted to discuss the "future of the country". Very pious he was! Absolutely nothing to do with him at all, obviously! He's so funny sometimes. Laughing

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The NEXT coming Oz election thread!

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