The Physics of 911

@Olivier5,

Quote:

Don't believe a word from Builder. He's a liar.

When did he lie?

Also, explain how the energy required to pulverize everything in the building below the impact zone, and the energy required to produce the explosive lateral ejections--as seen in photos and videos of the collapses--still allowed for enough reserve energy to allow for a virtually freefall descent through the course of most resistance.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Yes, it' useful to starve the fire of oxygen a bit. It's not just office furniture. Paper was of course in vast quantities in the rubbles too, as well as plenty of plastic-made carpets, tubes and pipes and wire coatings.

The fire in the first tower to fall was at mid-heigth so it naturally found its way to the middle of the rubble pile after collapse.

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@Glennn,

At a minimum, he lies each and every time he says a word about little me.

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@Olivier5,

Right. Your contention is that even though all of this debris was pulverized, and this pulverized debris was mixed in with all of the pulverized concrete, it nevertheless caught fire and then spread downward through all the pulverized and compacted concrete to finally make it to the basement levels where it created pools and flows of molten metal and melted steel girders.

Now why do you suppose that the NIST didn't come up with that explanation?

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@Olivier5,

Oh, and explain how the energy required to pulverize everything in the building below the impact zone, and the energy required to produce the explosive lateral ejections--as seen in photos and videos of the collapses--still allowed for enough reserve energy to allow for a virtually freefall descent through the course of most resistance.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

There was no "basement" to speak of at that point, it was entirely destroyed. So what do you mean by "basement"? The bottom of the pile?

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@Glennn,

Do I sense some impatience?

The reason I have not responded so far, as already explained to you, is that I wanted to solve the fire in the rubble issue first. But now I wonder if that will ever happen...

So I'm ready to move on, but there's another problem: I don't get the question, as phrased. As usual you express yourself poorly. Your concepts are misused and misleading.

Let's not waste time: do you know of a website where your question about kinetic energy during the fall would be expressed in clear scientific language?

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

So what do you mean by "basement"?

Now suddenly you don't know what is meant by the word basement. Do you know what readers are thinking right now. They're thinking: Who do you think you're kidding? And so am I. But I'll humor you.

In his reporting for American Ground, Langewiesche explored the shifting debris with construction workers and engineers, documenting the crises and questions as they arose. He crawled through "the pile" with survey parties and descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/07/77-north-washington-street/302529/

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Quote:

Do I sense some impatience?

Certainly not. Just ask anyone.

Quote:

The reason I have not responded so far, as already explained to you, is that I wanted to solve the fire in the rubble issue first.

That's been solved.

Quote:

I don't get the question, as phrased. As usual you express yourself poorly. Your concepts are misused and misleading.

Do you know what readers are thinking right now? They're thinking: Who do you think you're kidding? And so am I. But I'll humor you. Tell me what you don't understand about the following question which was put to you, and I'll see if I can help you with your confusion.

Please explain how the energy required to pulverize everything in the building below the impact zone, and the energy required to produce the explosive lateral ejections--as seen in photos and videos of the collapses--still allowed for enough reserve energy to allow for a virtually freefall descent through the course of most resistance.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

There was no "basement" to speak of at that point, it was entirely destroyed. So what do you mean by "basement"? The bottom of the pile?

Apologize to Glen.

Quote:

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/foundation.html

The Bathtub

The Deep Basement Containing the Twin Towers' Foundations

[site plane of bathtub - see at link]

The bathtub contained the footprints of the Twin Towers and Buildings 3 and 6.
About half of the superblock that the World Trade Center occupied contained a deep basement, the so-called bathtub. It was a skewed rectangle with sides about 980 and 520 feet, and a depth of about seven stories. 1

The bathtub is the 9-block area of the World Trade Center site that is excavated down to bedrock and hard soils and ringed by the slurry wall. The bathtub was created to enable the building of the Twin Towers' foundations, and was ultimately filled with seven stories of basements housing the parking garage, mall, and building services. Since the ground water level at the World Trade Center site was just a few feet below the surface, while bedrock was about 70 feet below the surface, creating the bathtub required first building a 7-story dam below the water level of the adjacent Hudson River -- the slurry wall. Ground excavated to make the bathtub was deposited west of West Street to make the land on which the World Financial Center and Battery Park now stand: 1,000,000 cubic yards moved in 100,000 truck loads filled a 700- by 1400-foot area, creating $90,000,000 worth of land. 2

Four of the World Trade Center buildings -- the Towers and Buildings 3 and 6 -- rested on foundations entirely within the bathtub.

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@camlok,

That describes in lengthy details the situation on 9/11 at 7:00 am. How much of these excruciating details remain accurate AFTER the FUCKIN COLLAPSE?

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@Glennn,

That's a dubious claim which I chalk up to the Atlantic's enthousiasm and salesmanship, plus the usual exagerations and embelishements that are the mark of second hands accounts on 9/11.

Langewiesche himself never describes such rivers of molten metal, nor any such survey deep in the ex-basement either in the three long Excerpts From ‘American Ground: Unbuilding the World Trade Center’ published in the Atlantic, nor in his book as far as I can tell.

Read his work. He was the only reporter embedded in the firefighters during the whole clean up. If someone saw streams of melted iron, it's him. Read his book. It'll educate you on rubble fires a lot.

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@Olivier5,

That is for you, an ignorant know nothing posing as a knowledgeable, interested party to find out. A poseur, if you will, with its English meaning, though I suspect it is similar in French.

1 Reply

I would like to thank every one of you for a simply fascinating discussion.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

That's a dubious claim which I chalk up to the Atlantic's enthousiasm and salesmanship, plus the usual exagerations and embelishements that are the mark of second hands accounts on 9/11.

Sure, the paper simply decided that they would make up their own story about what he saw; who needs reporters? I wonder if he sued them for misrepresenting him in such a gross fashion. I know I would have. I would have complained big time!

Quote:

Langewiesche himself never describes such rivers of molten metal, nor any such survey deep in the ex-basement either in the three long Excerpts From ‘American Ground: Unbuilding the World Trade Center’ published in the Atlantic, nor in his book as far as I can tell.

When you find something that shows a retraction of the account from the paper, or Langewiesche himself denying the account that was published, share it.

Quote:

If someone saw streams of melted iron, it's him.

Yeah, so the Atlantic says. But he's not the only one:

New York Fire Department Captain Philip Ruvolo said: “You’d get down below and you’d see molten steel, molten steel, running down the channel rails, like you’re in a foundry, like lava.”

Joe O’Toole, a Bronx firefighter who worked on the rescue and cleanup efforts, reported that one beam lifted from deep below the surface months later, in February 2002, “was dripping from the molten steel."

Leslie Robertson, a member of the engineering firm that designed the World Trade Center, said 21 days after the attack: “When we were down at the B1 level, one of the firefighters said, ‘I think you’d be interested in this,’ and they pulled up a big block of concrete and there was a, like a little river of steel, flowing.”

Don Carson, a hazardous materials expert from the National Operating Engineers Union, said six weeks after 9/11: “There are pieces of steel being pulled out from as far as six stories underground that are still cherry red.”
________________________________________

Now please explain how the energy required to pulverize everything in the building below the impact zone, and the energy required to produce the explosive lateral ejections--as seen in photos and videos of the collapses--still allowed for enough reserve energy to allow for a virtually freefall descent through the course of most resistance.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Quote:

That's a dubious claim which I chalk up to the Atlantic's enthousiasm and salesmanship, plus the usual exagerations and embelishements that are the mark of second hands accounts on 9/11.

During the more than ten years that Langewiesche has been a correspondent for The Atlantic, he has written about the U.S.-Mexican border, the ValuJet crash in Florida, the shipbreaking industry on the coast of India, and U.S. military operations in the Balkans, among other topics. Langewiesche has four times in the past been a finalist for the National Magazine Award, and his cover story of last November, about the suicidal plunge of EgyptAir 990 into the Atlantic Ocean, won this year's award in the Reporting category.
____________________________________________

Dubious??

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@roger,

Hey, I spied a lurker! Join in lurker.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

Yes, it' useful to starve the fire of oxygen a bit. It's not just office furniture. Paper was of course in vast quantities in the rubbles too, as well as plenty of plastic-made carpets, tubes and pipes and wire coatings.

Those are office furnishing that were pulverized into tiny particles. Office furnishings are by design, for fire safety reasons, a low fuel load.

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@roger,

Firemen Explosion Testimony
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO1ps1mzU8o

------------

Do you think these NYC firemen are lying, roger? Secondary explosions, and then more after that.

1 Reply

@camlok,

Quote:

Office furnishings are by design, for fire safety reasons, a low fuel load.

Is he still banging on about his imaginary bloomery?

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