2
   

The concept of 'activist judges'

 
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 03:21 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Let's see, Ebrown, I do think the war is going as well as any war goes in Iraq, I am in no way convinced that there is any credible scientific evidence proving global warming, Bush isn't a terrorist threat, not quite sure about Cat Stevens.


Well then, at least we understand each other. I am hopeful that more than 50% of voters (in the requisite key states) will agree with me.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 03:45 pm
I think GW would have a hard time pronouncing "inalienable", let alone know what it meant.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 03:46 pm
So ebrown...you jumped off the fence?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 03:57 pm
I never was on the fence. I have always been a Nader supporter and I remain one.

I still believe that Nader is right and I am mighty upset about how he is being pilloried by people who should know better. I hope the Democrats pay for this (in some other way than 4 more years of Bush).

That being said, I want Kerry to win and I am pretty sure that he is going to win.

.. and that being said, I live in Massachusetts. If I lived in Florida I would probably be less idealistic with my vote.

But, I believe that the world needs more Don Quixotes and less Knights of mirrors. I hope that sometime in the future Nader is publically vindicated. But, I have always been a bit of a romantic idealist.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 04:23 pm
you wear it well...does that mean we can count on your Kerry vote?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 04:26 pm
You don't need my Kerry vote. If Kerry can't win Massachusetts, he has got a lot more to worry about than my vote.

However, as you are in Florida, I will not ask for your Nader vote.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 04:31 pm
how kind...did they finally allow him on the ballot here?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 04:44 pm
Foxy wrote
Quote:
For instance, Kerry has already said he won't appoint a judge who doesn't support Roe v Wade. That is just plain wrong. It doesn't matter what the judge's personal opinions are re abortion. It only matters that the judge will uphold the letter and intent of the law as it is written
.

Sorry to say but that is a load of crap. What letter and intent of what law are they supposed to uphold. Constitutional law? Where in the constitution will you find the passage on homosexuality or abortion or the myriad of modern day problems and situations. Of course judges decisions oft times establish the law. And they always have. And what do they use to make it, their beliefs, religious, moral and intellectual.
If everything was spelled out in the constitution the supreme court would always end up voting 9 to 0
Bush keeps saying as you did he would appoint judges that will uphold the letter and intent of the law as it is written. What I can't understand is why someone does not call the imbecile on it. Do you think he will appoint judges who were in favor of abortion? Of course not. The man is as full of $hit as a Christmas turkey and as dumb.
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 05:18 pm
Ah, gimme' a break. George Bush does not have any idea on what is an informed opinion on "original intent" and activist judges. For if he did he would admit that the most activist and politically motivated decision ever decided by the SCOTUS was the one that appointed him.

For those with the intellectual integrity to view this question in an honest and unbiased manner check out Yale Law professor Jack Balkin's blog entry on Antonin Scalia's warped version of original intent. And remember, Fat Tony is Bush's favorite judge and one whom he points to as the antithesis of an activist judge.

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2004/10/scalia-blowing-smoke-again.html
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 05:29 pm
The ignorance of Scalia
kuvasz wrote:
For those with the intellectual integrity to view this question in an honest and unbiased manner check out Yale Law professor Jack Balkin's blog entry on Antonin Scalia's warped version of original intent. . . .

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2004/10/scalia-blowing-smoke-again.html


It's embarrassing to have someone like Scalia (all wrapped up in his own ignorance) sitting on the highest bench in the country. I agree with Balkin's assessment:

Quote:
Again I really hope Scalia was misquoted here, because this is the sort of originalist argument that gives originalism a bad name. I don't have problems with making arguments about original understanding. They are as legitimate as any other form of constitutional argument. What I have a problem with is people like Scalia insisting that their views are justified by originalism (and their opponents lack fidelity to the Constitution) when they haven't a clue about the actual history or are just making the history up. When people like Scalia do this, they are using originalism as a mantra to rationalize their own political values. They are doing exactly what they accuse those who disagree with them of doing.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 05:30 pm
au1929 wrote:
Foxy wrote
Quote:
For instance, Kerry has already said he won't appoint a judge who doesn't support Roe v Wade. That is just plain wrong. It doesn't matter what the judge's personal opinions are re abortion. It only matters that the judge will uphold the letter and intent of the law as it is written
.

Sorry to say but that is a load of crap. What letter and intent of what law are they supposed to uphold. Constitutional law? Where in the constitution will you find the passage on homosexuality or abortion or the myriad of modern day problems and situations. Of course judges decisions oft times establish the law. And they always have. And what do they use to make it, their beliefs, religious, moral and intellectual.
If everything was spelled out in the constitution the supreme court would always end up voting 9 to 0
Bush keeps saying as you did he would appoint judges that will uphold the letter and intent of the law as it is written. What I can't understand is why someone does not call the imbecile on it. Do you think he will appoint judges who were in favor of abortion? Of course not. The man is as full of $hit as a Christmas turkey and as dumb.


Your insults of a president are evident of your fear of him. In times of war up until the modern PC days, the military always-used ill terms when referring to their enemy, because it made them easier to kill them. People who are sexist and racist do the same thing. The use of such worlds also showed a lack of intelligence of the people who used them.

It is very easy to uphold the ideal of the constitution. It has been done many times in the past without writing new laws. You have stated that you didn't mind judges making laws, then if that is so then what good is the check and balances system?

Bush has never said he would only select judges who believed in God. Kerry has stated that he wouldn't select judges that didn't believe in abortion. Kerry has clearly called for a litmus test on judges and won't select judges who would use evidence to make judgments. If there were a new development on the abortion issue and there was enough evidence to make abortions limited or even overturn RvsW, then the people who Kerry selects wouldn't do it no matter what evidence said. That is poor judgment and very close-minded of a public official to even suggest such a thing.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 05:43 pm
Baldimo
And you are of the opinion that Judges decisions do not establish laws. Wake up and smell the roses. Roe v Wade's passage made abortion legal. And if Bush can stack the court with his conservative jurors they will in all likelihood overturn that decision. That is just one example where laws are made by the judiciary, based on their decisions.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 05:48 pm
Another example
Another example of Justice Scalia's ignorance: His dissent in Lawrence v. Texas.

http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-102.ZD.html

Justice Scalia wrote:

Quote:
. . . Let me be clear that I have nothing against homosexuals, or any other group, promoting their agenda through normal democratic means. Social perceptions of sexual and other morality change over time, and every group has the right to persuade its fellow citizens that its view of such matters is the best. That homosexuals have achieved some success in that enterprise is attested to by the fact that Texas is one of the few remaining States that criminalize private, consensual homosexual acts. But persuading one’s fellow citizens is one thing, and imposing one’s views in absence of democratic majority will is something else. . . .


Scalia is promoting unconstitutional discrimination. He apparently thinks it's acceptable for the "moral majority" to impose their moral views upon homosexuals in mob rule (pure democratic) fashion. If Scalia is going to sit on the highest bench in the nation, he needs to learn the BASICS. Our government is a REPUBLIC and, as such, it protects individual rights from being eviscerated through mob rule.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 05:55 pm
Think of it Scalia is Bush's idea of a judge that will uphold the letter and intent of the law as it is written.
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 06:07 pm
Hey Deb. Glad you went to the link I posted. The one thing I have always been disgusted with Scalia about is his insistence that original intent is not limited to the Constitution itself, but includes the debates on the document during the Constitutional Convention of 1787, all the while refusing to take cues from the the debates on these issues found in the Federalist Papers.

His grasp for "original intent" as judicial philosophy, is one long ago refuted in the Federalist Papers and is conveniently forgotten by Scalia.

The very basis of the Constitution, and the Supreme Court were by definition, a working, living document and office and branch of the United States government. Both were intended to be used to meet current situations, not some sort of biblical text or court of inerrancy. If the Court today uses the term "intent of the Congress" when it decides its votes on issues, so too it must recognize the debates used by the Federalist Papers to shape the opinion of those delegates of the Continental Congress that cast our constitution. To do less is rank hypocrisy that arises only when power is at stake; power against the common citizen by the influence, money, and connections of those with their own best interests at heart, not this nation's.

Scalia is being disingenuous at best, intellectually dishonest, most likely. He stoops to reflect on the "original intent" of the Constitution and the Constitutional Convention and proclaim that the Supreme Court does not interpret the Constitution. Yet Alexander Hamilton, in the Federalist Paper No. 78 states clearly the "original intent" of the Courts and its necessary actions, and it runs counter to Scalia's thrust. I believe if Scalia is to use the hoary rubric of "original intent" of the Constitution, then so too he should tack to those ideas that laid its philosophical ground work.

From Federalist Paper Number 78.

"The interpretation of the laws is the proper and peculiar province of the courts. A constitution is, in fact, and must be regarded by the judges, as a fundamental law. It therefore belongs to them to ascertain its meaning, as well as the meaning of any particular act proceeding from the legislative body."

"Ascertain its meaning" means to interpret. There is no other interpretation. Scalia is a gross intellectual fraud or a blatant hypocrite in this matter. And some lawyers and journalists out there need to call him on this, reach under his robe and stick this quote right up that fella's rectum.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 06:07 pm
Quote:
Scalia is promoting unconstitutional discrimination. He apparently thinks it's acceptable for the "moral majority" to impose their moral views upon homosexuals in mob rule (pure democratic) fashion. If Scalia is going to sit on the highest bench in the nation, he needs to learn the BASICS. Our government is a REPUBLIC and, as such, it protects individual rights from being eviscerated through mob rule.


Why didn't the people of Texas create a new law or even over turn the law as it was written? Times do change and laws should change with them, to force change from the bench is undemocratic and is not the way our nation would be run. What good is it to have a registration if judges can over turn the will of the people?




au1929 wrote:
Baldimo
And you are of the opinion that Judges decisions do not establish laws. Wake up and smell the roses. Roe v Wade's passage made abortion legal. And if Bush can stack the court with his conservative jurors they will in all likelihood overturn that decision. That is just one example where laws are made by the judiciary, based on their decisions.


The only way it could be over turned is if a new case was brought before the court. They just can't go back and overturn something just because they don't like it. Look at the Lawrence case, the SC went against one of its earlier judgments on the subject. Roe vs. Wade could only work in a similar way.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 06:08 pm
Baldimo wrote:
Bush has never said he would only select judges who believed in God. Kerry has stated that he wouldn't select judges that didn't believe in abortion. Kerry has clearly called for a litmus test on judges and won't select judges who would use evidence to make judgments.

You are wrong about Bush and Kerry.
Quote:
Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: We need commonsense judges who understand that our rights were derived from God. And those are the kind of judges I intend to put on the bench.

Transcript

Can you provide a link to backup your claim against Kerry?
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 06:19 pm
Baldimo wrote:
Why didn't the people of Texas create a new law or even over turn the law as it was written? Times do change and laws should change with them, to force change from the bench is undemocratic and is not the way our nation would be run. What good is it to have a registration if judges can over turn the will of the people?


So, according to Baldimo, the 9-0 decision of Brown v. Kansas Board of Education "is not the way our nation should be run."

I do not think you have any understanding of what the Constitution was attmpting to do. Its intent was not merely to set up a political system where the majority ruled. More important was that it set up guidelines where the minority was protected from the majority.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 07:28 pm
Quote:
You are wrong about Bush and Kerry.

Here's what you said Bush said: : We need commonsense judges who understand that our rights were derived from God. And those are the kind of judges I intend to put on the bench.

Here is what Bush really said in the second debate and nowhere in his response did he mention God.
Quote:
I would pick somebody who would not allow their personal opinion to get in the way of the law. I would pick somebody who would strictly interpret the Constitution of the United States.


Here is what Kerry said:
Quote:
Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade.


He has said that he wouldn't allow someone to come in and change abortion that would mean he would not allow a judge on the SC who didn't support abortion. If a new case came up on the issue, then he would want a judge that wouldn't consider the issue and just rule against it based on how that judge already feels. If all he ever has in the SC were pro-abortion judges then how would a new case be fair?

Quote:
So, according to Baldimo, the 9-0 decision of Brown v. Kansas Board of Education "is not the way our nation should be run."

I do not think you have any understanding of what the Constitution was attmpting to do. Its intent was not merely to set up a political system where the majority ruled. More important was that it set up guidelines where the minority was protected from the majority.


Can you please tell me where it says this in the constitution?

It does mention voting in the constitution and what it takes for something to win a vote and what it takes to pass a law, and it is majority rule.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 09:31 pm
Quote:
Here's what you said Bush said: : We need commonsense judges who understand that our rights were derived from God. And those are the kind of judges I intend to put on the bench.

Here is what Bush really said in the second debate and nowhere in his response did he mention God.


Bush did make that statement. He didn't make it in any debate but he said it in June of 2002.
http://usinfo.org/wf-archive/2002/020627/epf402.htmI finally found your Kerry quote in the 3rd debate transcript, not the second.

Quote:
He has said that he wouldn't allow someone to come in and change abortion that would mean he would not allow a judge on the SC who didn't support abortion. If a new case came up on the issue, then he would want a judge that wouldn't consider the issue and just rule against it based on how that judge already feels. If all he ever has in the SC were pro-abortion judges then how would a new case be fair?
It appears you don't understand how the court system works. Judges can not come in and overturn prior rulings. The case must be brought before them which usually means a case similar enough that they revisit a prior ruling. This is extremely rare. Judges are bound by not only the constitution but by prior rulings. In particular lower courts must take into account any relevent higher court rulings. (The ruling about "under God" was actually well laid out based on higher court rulings. There is speculation that the judge ruled that way to get it to go to USSC since he didn't have the power to rule the other way legally.) Since the USSC ruled on Roe v Wade, any similar case brought before a lower court MUST be ruled on in light of the higher court ruling. This makes it highly unlikely for the USSC to accept a case similar to Roe. In fact, the court would have to ignore the precedents it set and agree to take a case that was ruled on as they said it must be. Under the way the court works, it would require an "activist" court to overturn Roe. Kerry's statement is interesting in that it is precisely what the law requires, respect for previous court rulings.

Quote:
Can you please tell me where it says this in the constitution?

It does mention voting in the constitution and what it takes for something to win a vote and what it takes to pass a law, and it is majority rule.

This can be basically found in the amendments. THe amendments list rights that Congress can not take away from people. The 9th allows for there to be other rights that are not specifically listed but people still have. The 10th reserves power to the states and the people.The 14th then requires that the states recognize the same rights that the Fed govt does. The sticking point here is that the courts under the constitution have the power to rule on all cases concerning the constitution. So, if someone brings a case claiming that a right should be recognized under the constitution then the courts are the only ones with power to rule on it. If the courts rule that something is specifically a right granted under the constitution then the legislature really has no constitutional ability to pass laws concerning it.
Where this leads is to narrow rulings that try not to give too many rights and then legislative action that tries to get around the rulings or at least find the limits of them. In the case of Roe, the courts have made it pretty clear that reproductive rights are guarenteed to a certain extent and can not be completely taken away. Like most cases of personal rights, the court had to weigh the rights of one person against the rights of others. They made a reasonable decision based on what they had. Women have some rights but they don't have unfettered rights to an abortion at any time.
The exception for the health of the woman is an important one since it would mean that if you did not allow that exception a woman would not have the basic right to live.

The problem that some people seem to have with freedom is that it gives other people the right to make decisions that they personally find offensive. I may not agree with their decision but the only defense of freedom is to defend their right to make that decision.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 02/05/2025 at 03:48:47