Attempt at reconciling free will and determinism

@Olivier5,

OK, Ollie, I think I get the gist of your response. I probably don't agree with your characterization of the process, though. I would not call that "random." As Poincare notes, conscious, directed "work" must both precede and follow the generation of "new ideas." They would not have emerged by mere randomness (although that may also happen, on rare occasions). Also, those comments seem to be relevant to "unconscious" mental functions. I don't think that every "new idea" comes from unconscious sources or mechanisms.

Of course, those who reject free will would also have to object the very notion of "voluntary" attention. For them, nothing is voluntary, and any claim or sense of "voluntary" influence of events, whether mental or physical, is simply an "illusion."

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Wrong on all accounts when jumping to non sequitur conclusions. Granted we don't claim actual authorship on our thoughts but wrong regarding the reasoning. Reason as it is shaped throughout spacetime is its own and its not bound to anything else. We as everything else in Order in our Cosmos express its Necessity. Reason does not conduct facts, Reason is the natural order of Facts themselves.

"Reason" cannot simply impose itself on subjects, Fil. I think we can agree than many people are virtually unaware of, unresponsive to, and unaffected by "reason" in many cases. So I don't really agree with your basic assumption. I don't think "reason" can be apprehended without voluntary, sustained effort by the subject. It is not simply "implanted" like a bullet fired from a gun might be.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

Where do you propose that new ideas come from? God? The Devil?

Some certainly, but not all. Since you like quotes:

Quote:

God will not withhold from man that measure of glory which is his.

I may not have got that exactly right and I don't remember who said it ( may have even been from a poem) but I like and agree with them.

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@layman,

Quote:

I don't think that every "new idea" comes from unconscious sources or mechanisms.

Alright, so where from?

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@Leadfoot,

Fair enough. The force be with you and all that. I am a rationalist but accepts that life has its share of mysteries. The nature and emergence of the human mind is one of them. It seems to defy rational explanation. Hence the call to god(s). As a rationalist, I believe that a natural explanation for the workings of the brain-mind duality will be found, ultimately. And I bet it will incude a random idea generation mecanism.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I don't think that every "new idea" comes from unconscious sources or mechanisms.

Alright, so where from?

Conscious (as opposed to unconscious) direction of attention and contemplation, that's all, Ollie.

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@layman,

You would have a common life example? Like when you set to solve a crossword or sudoku and succeed in one quick shot?

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

You would have a common life example? Like when you set to solve a crossword or sudoku and succeed in one quick shot?

Yeah, I think there are thousands of common examples. I think Poincare was referring to particularly complex (math) issues that are, or at least seem, virtually insoluble. I have no doubt that the "unconscious mind" works on the kind of problem that you spend weeks or months trying to solve, but those are not "common."

A common example: You are a student who decides to haul off and do his math homework. You make a choice to do this (or not). You focus your attention on the problems at hand, basically tuning out "distractions" such as the TV in the other room, etc. You consciously apply yourself to the problems, you may struggle to fully grasp certain principles, etc., all by conscious effort, not some "mysterious" inspiration. When your homework is done, you move on to some other activity.

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@layman,

Still, if there is any new, original idea in the kid's homework, it generally came from some sort of inspiration on his part. It's not just a mecanical rehersal of past skills. That would be easy to explain. The issue is the invention of a new idea. Where does it come from if not some sort of "inspiration"?

Edit:

inspiration (n.) c. 1300, "immediate influence of God or a god," especially that under which the holy books were written, from Old French inspiracion "inhaling, breathing in; inspiration" (13c.), from Late Latin inspirationem (nominative inspiratio), noun of action from past participle stem of Latin inspirare "blow into, breathe upon," figuratively "inspire, excite, inflame," from in + spirare "to breathe" (see spirit (n.)).

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Still, if there is any new, original idea in the kid's homework, it generally came from some sort of inspiration on his part. It's not just a mecanical rehersal of past skills. That would be easy to explain. The issue is the invention of a new idea. Where does it come from if not some sort of "inspiration"?

You want to quibble about words? By "new idea" I'm not talking some idea which is brand-new to the world. I just mean a solution that is "new" to the person seeking a solution. And I mentioned a "mysterious inspiration"--i.e., one that seems to "come from nowhere."

We were talking about conscious vs. unconscious findings of solutions which might require a "new idea," that's all.

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@layman,

Words start wars, instigates violence, and kill people.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Leadfoot wrote:

Oh! Just like evolution!

Yes, a Darwinian system combining the random creation of new ideas with a selection process that picks up the best ones.

Where do you propose that new ideas come from? God? The Devil?

Referring the process as an "idea" is dishonest wording. It isn't driven by a conscious thought or motivation to change or develope a new trait. It doesn't work like that.

A mutation can either be helpful or detrimental to an organism. However the word helpful should have context to what it means when used here.

Let's take a bird for example. The type of beak it has will impact its ability to feed or find food. So a mutation in the shape of the beak can drastically impact how the bird acquired food. If a long slender beak is the norm, an offspring may have formed a shorter beak that doesn't allow for it to feed like it's parents or siblings. It may be forced to feed in a different way or it dies.

If the "malformed" lead to the birds death and it survives it might pass on its genes for this mutation if it breeds.

This is how changes and variety are seen. Over long periods of time mutations continue and if you compare its ancestors with thousands of generations later they may not even remotely resemble their distant relatives.

This isn't new ideas or caused by some external mind purposely manipulating animals. It comes down to minor errors in genetics that alter the function of a species over time.

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@Krumple,

Why mutations occur.
http://www.weegy.com/?ConversationId=9PPI8T75

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Why mutations occur.
http://www.weegy.com/?ConversationId=9PPI8T75

Without even looking at the link but I will. I can tell you there are many reasons why it occurs. It can happen from a mistake in the replication process where the wrong nucleotide was attached in the wrong spot.

The environment can cause genetic damage. Temperature changes, cosmic rays, continental drift into different climates.

Also disease gone unchecked that dwindles populations can impact genetic diversity. Which is what happened to the cheetah 20k years ago.

Humans also have a chromosome which is two fused chromosomes. This genetic error caused disruption in many genes. Why it occurred is difficult to determine.

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@Krumple,

That's what the article says, it's mutation of DNA.

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@Krumple,

Quote:

Referring the process as an "idea" is dishonest wording.

You are misunderstanding me. I am comparing idea generation in the brain with new species generation in the biosphere. It's a metaphor.

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@layman,

Still, when an idwa comes to mind it seems to come from someone wispering it to you.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Still, when an idwa comes to mind it seems to come from someone wispering it to you.

Who/what do you think is whispering to you, Ollie? Who's the "other guy" who really does all the thinking?

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@layman,

In my theory, your subconscious self.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

In my theory, your subconscious self.

"Self?" So it's the same guy, then?

1 Reply

Attempt at reconciling free will and determinism

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