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Attempt at reconciling free will and determinism

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ghurt3
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:04 pm
@Krumple,
Since there is no self, is this river our will? If the self does not exist, why did you say that our will is working against it?
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:05 pm
@ghurt3,
ghurt3 wrote:

What if your conscious choice is to not give a ****?
What if the conscious choice overrides the "irrational" desires? Would this not be an example of free will, according to your theory that we have a conscious chooser and an irrational mental state?


Oh neutral feelings can lead to apathy for sure but this to is leading you to "not give a ****."
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:07 pm
@ghurt3,
ghurt3 wrote:

Since there is no self, is this river our will? If the self does not exist, why did you say that our will is working against it?


I'm saying there is inclination at times for a different choice but typically the predisposition wins. You are at the mercy of ease.
ghurt3
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:12 pm
@Krumple,
I agree with that. Although I'd say that not giving a **** and apathy towards that which is asking for fucks are one and the same feeling. It's not necessarily one feeling leading to another. Although that does happen too.
0 Replies
 
ghurt3
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:13 pm
@Krumple,
How can we override our predisposition in any instance? Is this free will? ,,,,,, in your opinion
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:16 pm
@ghurt3,
ghurt3 wrote:

How can we override our predisposition in any instance? Is this free will? ,,,,,, in your opinion


If the motivation changes then the act will change naturally. Like changing your diet. You need reasoning, if you believe in the reason you will naturally change diet. No choice is made. It's motivation. If you hate your job, you find ways to justify your misery. Even if it's a lie..
ghurt3
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:23 pm
@Krumple,
So then, our predisposition can not be surmounted. However, it is always changing, just as the present is always changing, and we are always flowing and changing with it because we are part of it. determinism. yeah.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:24 pm
@Krumple,
Quote:
Life can be meaningful and enjoyable even though it's determined
Quite true Krump but I'd guess a substantial number might be discouraged
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:32 pm
@dalehileman,
dalehileman wrote:

Quote:
Life can be meaningful and enjoyable even though it's determined
Quite true Krump but I'd guess a substantial number might be discouraged


We are control freaks. We desperately need to feel that we have some even if it's a small quantity.
ghurt3
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:32 pm
@dalehileman,
predictably yeah
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:37 pm
@ghurt3,
ghurt3 wrote:

So then, our predisposition can not be surmounted. However, it is always changing, just as the present is always changing, and we are always flowing and changing with it because we are part of it. determinism. yeah.


Yes it changes but we are not always in agreement with the change. Sometimes even powerless to do anything about it if we even can. I say it doesn't matter. When you fully accept predisposition you can enjoy even the bad parts or get something constructive out of them even though they were bad experiences.

ghurt3
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:43 pm
@Krumple,
I agree. we are not always in agreement internally. Sometimes there are multiple things that we want to do because we have not completely come to terms with how reality has shattered our expectations.
Embracing what is difficult for you can be beneficial if you would like something to change. Yet, some people become so attached to this notion of growth that they cannot rest, and are never satisfied with how much they have grown.
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:46 pm
@Krumple,
Quote:
We desperately need to feel that we have some
Indeed, Krump
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 02:58 pm
@dalehileman,
We have freedoms that are determined by our government and where we live. Living in a democratic-capitalistic country provides us with more freedoms than other forms of government and economy.
What I find interesting is how even in the US, there are many places with different opportunities and standard of living. It's a mixed bag difficult to pin down.
ghurt3
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 03:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Interesting huh? That's that democratic-capitalist thing coming into play
north
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2016 09:21 pm
@ghurt3,

For me isn't freewill , when we as a thinking being , question both social and scientific thinking . When we can think beyond the main thinking.

I mean if we never could get beyond main thinking , how have we as Humans ever come up with new ideas at all ?

Some are freer willed than others .

Or is the search for the truth the essence of free-will ?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2016 12:04 pm
@ghurt3,
The attempt of reconciling determinism with free will is just politics and lack of courage to change of paradigm in how we want to face reality. In sum bulshit !
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2016 01:48 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Can't quite agree, Fil. The determinists have what seems like a watertight argument even though intuition rejects it absolutely
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2016 09:36 pm
@dalehileman,
Ego is a bitch ! We like to think we matter out of our own right. But we only matter in the great scheme of things. Our form of volition is not ours to decide with its inherited and bound to circumstance and context just like rocks are.
Funny enough I feel the opposite. My intuition tells me as soon as we leave behind this idea of self importance the world might just turn a more civilized compassionate place.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2016 09:40 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
My intuition tells me as soon as we leave behind this idea of self importance the world might just turn a more civilized compassionate place.


That's an ideal only possible in fiction.
 

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