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Attempt at reconciling free will and determinism

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2017 10:04 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
What is the alternative ? Magic ? Do you even stop to pounder deeply on the mechanics of our world or just take for granted common sense concepts ?...

Well I must have because I had a pretty good career in engineering.

I don't take anything for granted, unlike the Neo-Darwinists who take for granted that abiogenesis happened without a clue as to how. They are the ones who invoke 'Magic'.

I would include with them those who deny free will without any inkling of the mechanics that presumably drive our 'pre-determined' actions.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2017 10:11 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
I don't take anything for granted, unlike the Neo-Darwinists who take for granted that abiogenesis happened without a clue as to how. They are the ones who invoke 'Magic'.
You know damn well that plenty of evidence exists . Youre just flapping that mantra because you feel that circumstantial evidence is faulty and you havent spent enough time to see how these evidence are derived from "forensic" biochemistry
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2017 10:21 am
@farmerman,
I never ignored them.
You, however, ignored my many refutations of your 'forensic biochemistry' proof of abiogenesis.

No need to rehash them again in an off topic thread

But I suppose your post was evidence of a pre-determined response :-)
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2017 03:07 pm
@Leadfoot,
https://www.scribd.com/document/13786056/The-Mystery-of-Lifes-Origin
I believe in scientific pronouncements about the origins of life.
Refuting science without any challenging, credible thesis goes nowhere.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2017 09:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Wow, you make a mean argument with that there link ya flung at me lik sum kinda nukular wepon
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2017 09:36 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
What is the alternative ? Magic ? Do you even stop to pounder deeply on the mechanics of our world or just take for granted common sense concepts ?...

Well I must have because I had a pretty good career in engineering.

I don't take anything for granted, unlike the Neo-Darwinists who take for granted that abiogenesis happened without a clue as to how. They are the ones who invoke 'Magic'.

I would include with them those who deny free will without any inkling of the mechanics that presumably drive our 'pre-determined' actions.


Did you build washing machines with bad temper ? Very Happy
When you decide to address the topic as it should by answering the counters raised regarding causation being required for authorship and the double criteria of at the same time expecting we can brake a chain of cause by some sort of dualist spiritual magic distinct from material interactions then we may end up debating engineering 101..
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2017 11:47 pm
@Leadfoot,
I worked with nuclear weapons in the USAF back in the late fifties.
We worked with conventional and nuclear weapons.
I designed this patch while stationed at Walker AFB in New Mexico.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1950s-usaf-37-aviation-depot-squadron-418963297
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2017 07:44 am
@cicerone imposter,
That's a pretty cool squadron patch.
Very un-PC by today's standards.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2017 07:49 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
answering the counters raised regarding causation being required for authorship

This counter to your counter is an old one but you don't have anything to counter it:

I may not be able to see the watch maker or where he came from, but when I see a watch, I know he exists.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 07:04 am
@Leadfoot,
Sooo, assuming your thesis for a second, the "watchmaker" has no rational himself eh ? The god damned thing is free as a bird from his own nature right ? Scalling the topic one step up and pointing at Metaphysics changes nothing...

The NATURE of the assumed "watchmaker" compells him to be and act along with his intrinsic timeless rational. No mind is free , not even a mad one. One thinks according to reason and acts according to necessity. In fact stepping deep into your game "God" always acts out of NECESSITY, otherwise none of his actions would be perfect, complete, good, and justified. To sum it up old man your intuition pumps on metaphysics are missing. If I were to believe in your God I would do a far better job at describing its properties then you ever will...but oh well you point up and believe you explained anything...the usual tedious boring cliché of those who forgo thinking all together...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 07:20 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
PS -. "A good King is a slave of the peoples needs".
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 07:23 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

I never ignored them.
You, however, ignored my many refutations of your 'forensic biochemistry' proof of abiogenesis.

No need to rehash them again in an off topic thread

But I suppose your post was evidence of a pre-determined response :-)


I find it entertaining that you think the topic of evolution is circumscribed to a Biology debate...
...evolution is just a new, recent, fancy world for a rational unfolding within time and space...you don't disbelieve that do you ? Very Happy
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 07:39 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Get your head out of your own metaphysical cloud for a minute. I was not speaking of metaphysics. I only used the very transparent metaphor of his 'watch'. I did not say God had no 'rational himself'. What on earth made you think so?
Quote:
In fact stepping deep into your game "God" always acts out of NECESSITY, otherwise none of his actions would be perfect, complete, good, and justified.

That is mere assertion on your part. We and God can act out of necessity but we also have the option to act out of sheer delight, imagination or invention. 'Twould be a boring and futile existence without it but you have that option if you choose.

I did notice that you had no counter to the existence of this 'watch' BTW. Unless you want to invoke the always lame 'Anything that can happen, will'. You can wait forever for some things to happen, but they never will. To use your thesis, there isn't even a 'NECESSITY' for them. Even 'we' were optional.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 07:44 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
I find it entertaining that you think the topic of evolution is circumscribed to a Biology debate...

What made you think I was limiting it to that? I love the Big Bang watch too..
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 10:30 am
@Leadfoot,
Do you even listen yourself ? A God Rational demands Necessity, not freedom. Shaky foundations on your thought process.


Invention, imagination ya say ? Go ahead invent a line nor curved nor straight out of non being...

...and yes the Rational implies all given possibilities of our atomic Rubik's cube in this Universe will unfold in a given algorithm. The fancy new word in town for that is Evolution.

I on the other hand argue the old argument, potential archetypes, atomic maps of stuff, already exist. There is no invention, no freedom, no fracking imagination...you dwell on lame people's languaging. You can't start to phantom just how far away from any hint of understanding and enlightenment you are.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 11:03 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
You do have an impressive array of decoy targets to shoot at.

But my Omni-mode anti-nothing missile has already destroyed your mother ship.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 02:58 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

You do have an impressive array of decoy targets to shoot at.

But my Omni-mode anti-nothing missile has already destroyed your mother ship.


I think you missed my sarcasm regarding non being...its not a thing !
Funny enough your freedom would require stuff like non being be a sort of open space for "creation", "invention", and "imagination".
Of course, Completeness, something foreign to you, denies you the foolish daydreaming.

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2017 06:46 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S0x1yBiFiUw
It all amounts to noth'n
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2017 07:35 am
@Leadfoot,
Fil has painted himself in a philosophic corner a long time ago, and has been living in that little mental corner forever since. Like a bear in a cage he's going round and round, uttering meaningless sounds and scaring off children.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2017 11:31 am


...and now the political answer which is just a scape goat way of doing the transition from the old naive model to the new paradigm.



With this basic crash course on the topic I rest my case. Unless someone is willing to debate the topic seriously according to factual scientific criteria I wont answer to either nonsense or verbal mediocre abuse as pseudo childish counters. A waste of my time and other people's time interest on the topic.
Thank you very much for watching and have a nice day ya all ! Wink
 

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